20% of new Obamacare Waivers are restaurants, nightclubs, fancy hotels in Pelosi’s District!

I will agree with all the pro 3rd world health insurance folks about something. When these waivers run out then there could be another waive of layoffs. I don't know why since they will get a subsidy to offset the cost. And this subsidy would come from the top 1% who don't pay any taxes. Don't we all agree the rich should pay at least their fair share? No one is asking for them to pay more. Just pay what's right.

If there is one thing I found out about Obama its this. He dots his i's and crosses his t's.

So I think Health Care will ultimately depend on tax breaks for the mega rich. If they don't get those folks to pay more then I can't see health care surviving the long haul. It will be ruled constitutional but it would be so in the red its scary. To stay in the black the rich must pay their fair share in taxes.

reply to post by The Old American


OK...there were posts in this thread where I understood that the government had nothing to do with this plan. Now this was different from what I had understood, and that is why I asked the question. Won't it be the government, when that time comes, who does the enforcing?

Thanks for your answer,
Mahree

Originally posted by The Old American


Nobody will be collecting a fee or going to jail under the current way it is written as there is no penalty for non-payment of fines. The fine is there to set precedent when they eventually do begin to jail citizens for not buying something they neither want nor need.

/TOA

That's a good point. Same with our share of the debt. There is no block on my IRS tax forms that ask me to pay my share of the national debt. Everybody says I owe debt. They say my kids owe debt and their kids will owe debt. I can guarantee everyone that the government will never ask anyone to pay off their share of the debt.

We would just default. And if we default the entire solar system defaults. That's why we will never default. America is to big to fail. And the world knows this.

Originally posted by LosLobos
Here is a typical mini-med plan.

"The most affordable plan at McDonald's charges hourly workers about $14 a week, which comes to $727.48 annually. In return, they get $2,000 worth of coverage per year. If they step on a nail or come down with the flu, they might be covered, but the costs paid by the insurer may not even equal their premiums. If they are diagnosed with cancer, or even appendicitis, they are as vulnerable as someone with no insurance at all.

The "best" plan of the bunch costs $1,680 a year and caps benefits at $10,000. But for outpatient treatment (which often means the emergency room), benefits are capped at $2,000. A trip to the emergency room can zoom past that level in a matter of minutes."

Micky D's health insurance plan

This kind of nonsense is just straight up robbery. You guys should be mad people are asking for waivers for this kind of coverage. That's not even including dental. These people are throwing away 700 bucks a year for basically nothing. If they get sick, and it runs them a 100K, then they will have to file for bankruptcy by the time they hit 25 years old.

Why do you guys want this kind of health insurance in an EXCEPTIONAL COUNTRY like ours? This is 3rd world health insurance if you ask me. Why do you guys accept 3rd world health insurance to exist in this country? Some folks call this type of insurance un-American.

Star for you. The teabaggers and GOP act as if this type of insurance is some type of godsend, even though it won't even cover you if you have to have catastrophic surgeries, transplants, get cancer, etc.

I find it pretty hilarious that the right wing in this country takes pride in the fact that we are the ONLY first world country to not offer universal health care, as if individuals who get sick, who are disabled or poor should have to go through long and painful diseases, in extreme cases causing death, because only those who can afford health care actually deserve health care. Individuals who don't support low or no cost health insurance to every single citizen of this country are guilty of negligent homicide. You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Just remember that karma does come back around. I would never wish sickness on anyone, but I wonder how fast these right wingers thoughts would change if someone dropped their health insurance and then they found out they needed an operation to remove a cancerous tumor, or have a denigrative or painful disease that will ultimately lead to their deaths?

The hilarious part is the people who are seniors and take advantage of Medicare who campaign so hard against the rest of us being able to get low cost health insurance provided by the government. The funny thing is, now the people who voted them in want to phase that out too! Apparently only old retired white folks deserve medical treatment for low or no cost, while the rest of us who pay taxes, work at low wage jobs, and live paycheck to paycheck don't deserve treatment for our conditions.

I wonder how Jesus would feel about the Teabagger attitude towards health insurance? Hell, if Jesus were around today, he'd be considered a socialist. He supported wealth redistribution, helping the poor and homeless, providing health care and saving lives, and was strictly non-violent all the way to the end. Well, to those of you who believe in God and think you will get judged after you pass, I don't think God will look too kindly on your support of letting people with little money get the medical treatment that should be their God given right. Hell, when most 3rd world countries have universal health care, how can you truly say that you are "proud to be an American"?

Originally posted by Mahree
reply to post by The Old American

 

OK...there were posts in this thread where I understood that the government had nothing to do with this plan. Now this was different from what I had understood, and that is why I asked the question. Won't it be the government, when that time comes, who does the enforcing?

Thanks for your answer,
Mahree

I don't think that has been decided, though if it was to be enforced now it would likely be the Dept. of Health. They may just set up another alphabet agency just for the purpose of enforcing the imprisonment of people making choices about their own lives and welfare. Something like, I dunno, maybe The Department of Homela...oh, wait that's taken all ready.

/TOA

Originally posted by LosLobos
Let's all take a deep breath and see what these waivers actually do.

The Affordable Care Act is designed to provide Americans with affordable, high-quality coverage options – while ensuring that those who like their current coverage can keep it.

That's as far as I need to go. I like my current coverage, which is NONE, and I think I WILL keep it! Glad to know that's perfectly fine with TPTB, and there will be no forced purchasing!



Just say NO!

Much like the so called 'death panels', sound bite ideologues are again whipping their rabid constituency into a frenzy. Read what the waivers entail before you jump on the latest talking point, I thought thats what set the ATS community apart from most other media sources.

The bantering back and forth has gotten a bit silly, guys, and takes us off-topic. Below is a link to the official guidance from HHS - OCIIO Sub-Regulatory Guidance (OCIIO 2010 - 1): Process for Obtaining Waivers of the Annual Limits Requirements.

You need to remember that the original law law did not specifically address the waivers but gave HHS the authority to issue the interim and final rules. The entire law was set up to provide a general guideline of the reform provisions and then delegated authority for final clarification on each section to different governing bodies (HHS, IRS, etc.). Most of what has been issued, thus far, are called Interim Final Rules (IFR), which is an oxymoron if you ask me, but more than 20 sets of those IFRs have been released on a whole range of subjects.

But getting back specifically to the waivers referenced in this post, this link will take you to the actual verbiage from HHS on the waiver. It describes everything including the mandatory minimum coverage requirements (escalating amounts from 2011 through 2013 and then unlimited as of 1/1/2014), the mini-med or limited medical plans these waivers are relevant to and the manner in which ANY organization can apply for the waiver:

cciio.hhs.gov...

Hopefully, this will put an end to all of the back and forth demands for actual documentation and will satisfy everyone's questions.

Again, I'm not making commentary on the constitutionality, ethicacy or morality of Obamacare; I'm merely providing the facts.

Timidgal

EDIT: I just saw the 11:11 post time which is kind of freaky since I wrote it over two hours ago but forgot to hit "reply". Opening comment is addressed to those posters from earlier this afternoon and not recent ongoing discussion.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by Ahabstar

 

There are two kinds of enemies described in the Constitution, foreign and domestic.

And who's job is it to defend the country against enemies, foreign and domestic??? That would be the President's job. So if you take up arms against the country, it is the President's duty to protect the country from YOU.

The president's job? That's not a duty I'm willing to delegate, even if we HAD a president!

I'll decide for myself who constitutes an "enemy", thanks. Don't need any one else to think FOR me!

Originally posted by LosLobos
Here is a typical mini-med plan.

"The most affordable plan at McDonald's charges hourly workers about $14 a week, which comes to $727.48 annually. In return, they get $2,000 worth of coverage per year. If they step on a nail or come down with the flu, they might be covered, but the costs paid by the insurer may not even equal their premiums. If they are diagnosed with cancer, or even appendicitis, they are as vulnerable as someone with no insurance at all.

The "best" plan of the bunch costs $1,680 a year and caps benefits at $10,000. But for outpatient treatment (which often means the emergency room), benefits are capped at $2,000. A trip to the emergency room can zoom past that level in a matter of minutes."

Micky D's health insurance plan

This kind of nonsense is just straight up robbery.

ALL insurance is robbery. ALL of it. I'm not willing to play that lotto, thanks.

Why do you guys want this kind of health insurance in an EXCEPTIONAL COUNTRY like ours? This is 3rd world health insurance if you ask me. Why do you guys accept 3rd world health insurance to exist in this country? Some folks call this type of insurance un-American.

"Exceptional" countries do NOT force their citizenry to make purchases they neither need nor want for the benefit of some corporate cronies (i.e. in this case the insurance industry being handed a "guaranteed" windfall of profits), and to the detriment of the citizenry.

I call illegal legislation "Un-American".

Originally posted by The Old American

Originally posted by Mahree
Another question? Who will be collecting the fee or sending us to jail if we DON'T have insurance? Isn't the government included in this part?

Nobody will be collecting a fee or going to jail under the current way it is written as there is no penalty for non-payment of fines. The fine is there to set precedent when they eventually do begin to jail citizens for not buying something they neither want nor need.

/TOA

So where exactly is your source for this rather specious claim that they are going to jail people for not having health insurance in the future? This could be a bigger crock of crap than "Death panels" or a "government takeover of health care". Here's a clue: it's not even really a "fine" that you'll be paying if you don't buy--it's something that ultimately comes in or out of your taxes. And for those that can't afford the premiums that go into effect in 2014, there will be financial assistance available.

I feel like I'm posting on a thread where people only get their news from Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, WND and Glenn Beck (who was considered too big of a loon to be even kept on Faux News). It would be futile to ask you to actually broaden your horizons, because your blind hatred for anything even considered "moderate" prevents you from ever fact checking the BS you hear from sources like that through objective outlets, or fact checking sites. Those have a "liberal bias", blah blah, etc, etc.

There's a reason why almost every country in Western Europe has a better quality of life and longer life expectancy than the United States does; it's because they ensure that from birth until death, medical issues are treated, transplants are available, hospitals don't charge you $3,000 to go to the ER, and it's not 200 bucks for an office visit if you aren't covered by private insurance. But hey, who cares about everyone living longer and better lives if you have to pay 2% more on each paycheck for taxes?

And to be more realistic, we could fund all of this by bumping the tax rates on the rich, folks making $250,000 or more. What's even more ironic is while all of you bleat about Obama "raising your taxes", the fact is, unless you're making a quarter of a million dollars, your taxes have DROPPED under the Obama administration. But God forbid the folks living in gated communities in Newport Beach, with yachts, vacation homes, and millions in the bank account have to pay a little more into the system and government that ALLOWED them to make that money.

It's so sad that such a large amount of people in this country are so selfish that they would rather watch thousands die due to lack of insurance because Richie Rich doesn't want to pay more in taxes, so he can go buy another vacation home in the Bahamas.

And it's so sad that we claim we are an "educated and caring" country, when, unlike every other wealthy country on this planet, we refuse to take care of those of us who can't afford the insanely high cost of prescription drugs, hospital stays, and surgeries.

God Bless America, right?

Originally posted by LosLobos
I will agree with all the pro 3rd world health insurance folks about something. When these waivers run out then there could be another waive of layoffs. I don't know why since they will get a subsidy to offset the cost. And this subsidy would come from the top 1% who don't pay any taxes. Don't we all agree the rich should pay at least their fair share? No one is asking for them to pay more. Just pay what's right.

If there is one thing I found out about Obama its this. He dots his i's and crosses his t's.

So I think Health Care will ultimately depend on tax breaks for the mega rich. If they don't get those folks to pay more then I can't see health care surviving the long haul. It will be ruled constitutional but it would be so in the red its scary. To stay in the black the rich must pay their fair share in taxes.

Define what you mean by "fair share". Are you meaning to imply that the 70% they pay in taxes vs. the 25% I pay in taxes is somehow "unfair", and they need to pay even MORE?

In what worldview is that defined as "fair"?

Originally posted by LosLobos
Here is a typical mini-med plan.

"The most affordable plan at McDonald's charges hourly workers about $14 a week, which comes to $727.48 annually. In return, they get $2,000 worth of coverage per year. If they step on a nail or come down with the flu, they might be covered, but the costs paid by the insurer may not even equal their premiums. If they are diagnosed with cancer, or even appendicitis, they are as vulnerable as someone with no insurance at all.

The "best" plan of the bunch costs $1,680 a year and caps benefits at $10,000. But for outpatient treatment (which often means the emergency room), benefits are capped at $2,000. A trip to the emergency room can zoom past that level in a matter of minutes."

Micky D's health insurance plan

This kind of nonsense is just straight up robbery. You guys should be mad people are asking for waivers for this kind of coverage. That's not even including dental. These people are throwing away 700 bucks a year for basically nothing. If they get sick, and it runs them a 100K, then they will have to file for bankruptcy by the time they hit 25 years old.

Why do you guys want this kind of health insurance in an EXCEPTIONAL COUNTRY like ours? This is 3rd world health insurance if you ask me. Why do you guys accept 3rd world health insurance to exist in this country? Some folks call this type of insurance un-American.

The original purpose of mini-meds were to provide SOME coverage to certain groups of employees where none had previously been provided at all (low income employees who couldn't afford the high contribution costs, part-timers, temporary, seasonal, etc.). I'm curious as to where you got the data quoted above? Don't get me wrong - the coverage stinks but it typically does provide those separate limits for each family member (something not mentioned).

Timidgal

Originally posted by zcflint05

Star for you. The teabaggers and GOP act as if this type of insurance is some type of godsend, even though it won't even cover you if you have to have catastrophic surgeries, transplants, get cancer, etc.

It's my understanding that the term "teabagger" is a perjorative, akin to the "N" word. Please refrain from using it, and in particular making blanket applications of it, as you've done here. Epithets and smears are unbecoming of civil discourse.

I find it pretty hilarious that the right wing in this country takes pride in the fact that we are the ONLY first world country to not offer universal health care, as if individuals who get sick, who are disabled or poor should have to go through long and painful diseases, in extreme cases causing death, because only those who can afford health care actually deserve health care.

I am all of the above - right wing, sick, poor, and uninsured - and I want NO part of this "plan" that Obama and company have foisted off on America. I prefer to make my own choices and decisions, not delegate them to Big Brother. I'm quite capable to determine whether or not I want to throw what money I have away on this corporate lottery they've set up.

Individuals who don't support low or no cost health insurance to every single citizen of this country are guilty of negligent homicide. You people ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Just remember that karma does come back around. I would never wish sickness on anyone, but I wonder how fast these right wingers thoughts would change if someone dropped their health insurance and then they found out they needed an operation to remove a cancerous tumor, or have a denigrative or painful disease that will ultimately lead to their deaths?

I will die. How's that for a simple solution? It's gonna happen sooner or later, anyhow. It's only a matter of timing.

I wonder how Jesus would feel about the Teabagger attitude towards health insurance? Hell, if Jesus were around today, he'd be considered a socialist. He supported wealth redistribution, helping the poor and homeless, providing health care and saving lives, and was strictly non-violent all the way to the end. Well, to those of you who believe in God and think you will get judged after you pass, I don't think God will look too kindly on your support of letting people with little money get the medical treatment that should be their God given right.

I'll take my own chances with The God, thanks. As for your allegations against Jesus, I'd like to see the evidence to back them, if you don't mind. Anyone can SAY anything, but backing their allegations is quite another thing. I doubt that The God will care one way or the other whether I bought insurance or not, and any anything that is truly "god-given" will be... god-given! I'll wait on The Deity to buy my insurance if that's his intention. Don't much care what the government does, or what you choose to do as an individual. Nether of you speak for God, and in point of fact he may take exception to your claims to do so, but that's between you and he.

Hell, when most 3rd world countries have universal health care, how can you truly say that you are "proud to be an American"?

I WAS... until the government thought they could force me into making a useless purchase to benefit their corporate cronies via a guaranteed profit windfall. I'm not quite so sure of that pride now.

Originally posted by zcflint05

There's a reason why almost every country in Western Europe has a better quality of life and longer life expectancy than the United States does; it's because they ensure that from birth until death, medical issues are treated, transplants are available, hospitals don't charge you $3,000 to go to the ER, and it's not 200 bucks for an office visit if you aren't covered by private insurance.

To be quite frank, I'd rather you move to western Europe than have western Europe invade here. If you think you can get a better deal there, don't let the door bump your fanny on the way out.

But hey, who cares about everyone living longer and better lives if you have to pay 2% more on each paycheck for taxes?

Another 2% is 2% too much. I already pay 25% in taxes all told, including the FICA and Medicare/Medicaid (neither of which I will live long enough to see any benefit at all from), and yes, I PAY. It's taken right out of my check, and I've not gotten any refunds I've been due for over 15 years now. I don't make anywhere near your claimed 250k, and still I pay.... now you want me to pay MORE for useless things? I'm already paying too much for useless things. Tell you what - if you're all that altruistic, YOU can pay my extra 2%, and I'll assign the "benefits" from that to you as well. Fair enough?

And to be more realistic, we could fund all of this by bumping the tax rates on the rich, folks making $250,000 or more. What's even more ironic is while all of you bleat about Obama "raising your taxes", the fact is, unless you're making a quarter of a million dollars, your taxes have DROPPED under the Obama administration. But God forbid the folks living in gated communities in Newport Beach, with yachts, vacation homes, and millions in the bank account have to pay a little more into the system and government that ALLOWED them to make that money.

See above. I'm nowhere NEAR "rich" as you keep bleating on about, and I want NOTHING to do with this travesty. You can eat the rich and whine about them all you like, I have more pressing matters to attend to than trying to shift blame to them.

Just curious, but how do you get that the government "allowed" them to make their money? Why won't your government "allow" me to do the same, then? I could go for one of those yachts, if you have a spare one laying around.

It's so sad that such a large amount of people in this country are so selfish that they would rather watch thousands die due to lack of insurance because Richie Rich doesn't want to pay more in taxes, so he can go buy another vacation home in the Bahamas.

Again trying to shift blame to "dem rich folks", when it is little folks like me who will be paying the price and taking the beatings. You go on whining about them, I've got to look out for ME in spite of 'em.

And it's so sad that we claim we are an "educated and caring" country, when, unlike every other wealthy country on this planet, we refuse to take care of those of us who can't afford the insanely high cost of prescription drugs, hospital stays, and surgeries.

God Bless America, right?

Again, you are welcome to migrate to any one of those countries at your earliest convenience. Don't bring their mess HERE, though.

In a year and a half, the white house socialist rubber stamp will be defeated and Obamacare repealed. I'm not too awful worried about it.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


LOL Didn't the Dems hire a Speed-reader to read the silly thing so they could say it was read? That was Obamacare wasn't it? Or was it another idiot bill the Dems were pushing around that didn't get read first.


looks like it was the climate bill



and Fox got another speedreader to read the Obamacare bill so that we would know what was in it.

Originally posted by six67seven
I say, forget about the argument of who should get waivers... what about the argument of should we have government run healthcare in the first place? It's natural for governments to grow uncontrollably. If the people don't put limits on it to keep it in check, then it will takeover whatever it sees fit, or unfit that the government thinks it can fix. This is not the intended role of government.

Yes, and unfortunately POTUS said he didn't notice the million plus people protesting in DC. How can we redress a govt so corrupt it ignores millions of people?

Why is it so hard to understand?
The waivers can be re-applied for annually ONLY until 2014....

2014 people!

..whereupon a NEW bill will be introduced to allow annual re-application for the waivers to continue indefinitely.
Guaranteed.

reply to post by spyder550


What do you expect from capitalism? Under the law of capitalism, the people are ruled by the almighty dollar.