Bin Laden's Son Says 'Arbitrary' Killing of His Father Was Illegal

Ok I dont exactly what happend buty I clicked on the youtube link and actually went to the sucriber page ...

PLEASE be carefull I lost my interenet connection for about a half hour .. just tryig to be curious ,, this is no joke my web page said too many simantanious pages result could be a blaster virus ..well it said to restart an run virus scanner an restart the pc ..I did that an nothing so I waited fianally i was able to bring up the web browser .. now if that aint wierd .. government maybe ?? tracking that video subcriber he is from India

reply to post by SLAYER69


Frankly mate, i think 'sauce for the goose'.

IOW, embellishments tacked onto 'the main story', to make the 'main story' more believable.

It's a well known technique, some would say classic in intelligence and psychological circles.

But let's face it...if you tie a pretty red ribbon around a dog turd..it's still a dog turd,with a ribbon.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Good to know about the uniform thing. Two things about that (very picky, I know) but who defines what a uniform is? And who wears a uniform to sleep?

In answer to the first part, the Geneva Conventions themselves define what constitutes a uniform From the Thrid Geneva Convention, regarding POWs:

4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:

that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
that of carrying arms openly;
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

The uniform actually consists of the "fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance", rather than the actual tailoring of the clothes or what sort of camouflage they're made from. That provision is in place so that combatants can't try to pass as civilians, and escape conflict thereby, which, when done, serves only to endanger civilians, rather than protect the combatant.

In regards to the second part, anyone engaged in hostilities who doesn't want to be shot out of hand as a spy. I generally slept with at least my shirt on, because that's where the insignia was. I'd unbutton it for a degree of comfort, but wouldn't shed it just to sleep. Usually kept the pants and boots on as well, but unlaced the boots. You never know when you'll have to hit the ground running. I STILL sleep with my shirt on. Old habits die hard. I also turn my boots upside down and whack hell out of 'em to this day, to make sure nothing crawled in there while I was asleep. Habit.

In some places, I was subject to summary battlefield execution if captured, since I wore NO distinctive markings to single me out of the crowd. That was my own choice, and I'd have lived with the consequences - or not, as the case may have been. It is those instances in particular which have made me acutely aware of the Geneva Conventions requirements.

I've read tons about this since 2002, and it's never very clear regarding the conventions. I seem to recall that we don't or didn't apply the same rules in the same way to the Taliban as we did to al Qaeda.

They should not be applied to either one, as neither was a signatory to the Conventions, and so are not bound by their prohibitions OR their protections.

Can't blame lay people from being confused when lawyers, militaries, and countries disagree about all this,

Agreed. There are opinions all over the place, but very few decided cases to clarify. For example, mercenaries were executed in the aftermath of the Luanda trials, in spite of their fulfilling the requirements of the Geneva Conventions regarding open weapon carry and uniform, and there was nary a peep about it. it's often the luck of the draw. AQ would seem to fall under the same provisions as mercenaries and unlawful combatants, since they are not nationals of one of the belligerent countries, nor do they meet the requirements for lawful combatants by any other measure, yet they engage in hostilities all the same.

Some Taliban members may have a defense as Afghan Nationals, but that again is up for interpretation, since we are not at war WITH Afghanistan per se, even though we are at war IN Afghanistan.

No one can truly claim that this Osama action was illegal or that Osama Bin Laden was even killed. I can say it was illogical and highly irresponsible. I will explain briefly why I think this whole affair does not pass the logic test.

When you observe that the media is announcing and hyping 160 nuclear bombs buried in American cities from the terrorist enemies of America, it begs a hard question of who is making decisions for the White House, the CIA and other agencies tasked with our Foreign policy and National Security issues?

I ask you to use some simple logic and ask yourself just one important question.

If the CIA, DHS or the USA had any credible intelligence about 160 buried nuclear devices or dirty bombs, or even just one credible nuke device, then don't you think that it would have been "Important" enough for someone in our current administration to figure out that it was important enough to keep Osama Bin Laden alive long enough to find out the truth of such nuke devices? To me this is exactly the type of question no one is asking. I ponder "why?". Could it be because this whole affair is not what it seems or appears or what we are told it is?

For all we know, they shot and killed a once Osama Bin Laden look alike. They destroyed all evidence of the body and other matters because it would prove that Osama Bin Laden was no where in that house he was supposedly killed in and that we have been lied too repeatedly for reasons that our leaders seem unwilling to answer or account for, because of course, they no longer answer to the American public and no longer answer questions with anything that resembles the truth of the matter. In fact, they generate the conspiracy, so they can deny it. In affect, they are acting above the law.

With the propaganda being generated on a 24/7 basis, it appears that it all leads to another war for the greedy military industrial complex and more terror legislation that strips us of even more liberties and freedoms from elected officials that no longer understand what this nation was founded on. They display no morality, ethical behavior, code of decency and or the need for honesty or informing the American public with the truth.

This latest "supposed" Osama Kill Order is an example that gives me cause for concern about the atmosphere of deception and irresponsibility the media and the White House openly display and without any fear of tough questions or accountability for their mistakes, omissions and outright lies.

It is time to demand a return to logical questions of our media and even of our POTUS. When provided "garbage" as answers that do not pass the logic test or truth test, we should not advance the discussion until simple and logical questions are answered and verified. Lies and deception from our media and POTUS must be confronted at all costs. The consequences of accepting the lies and deception is the price we will pay for failing to do so.

Anyway, can't talk seriously about this being a illegal killing until someone verifies who got killed. If that verification is not forthcoming, then everything else is just speculation, no matter what we may think or believe about this whole affair. That is the needed logic that is missing from all this rhetoric.

reply to post by SLAYER69

I read that. What's your point?

Seems quite a few people who know more about this than I do seem to disagree. And I believe I covered that in my post somewhere above yours. Seems to me like there may be repercussions worldwide, repercussions the U.S may defend successfully.. We'll see.

Thanks for your response.


reply to post by nenothtu

Guess a beard and white hat don't count. Maybe what they wear is considered a uniform. I don't know. Good points about the blending in, but a bit confusing about the camo. Thanks for the clarification. Maybe there'll be more in the news about this in coming days.

Seriously, there´s way too much imature hate going on regarding Osama´s death. Mythos, right on!

You know, two wrongs still does not equal one right. I wonder how most americans would have felt if the pakistani army executed a military operation without permission on american holy soil, killing a couple of christian terrorist bastards leaving not even a humble "sorry but we just had to do this in order to satisfy our lust for blood! Er...i mean war on terror".

I have all respect for good men and women regardless of nationality or personal beliefs. I also have sympathy for all those who have lost loved ones on either side of the fence but wishing death upon another man is not the way to end this.

If one is to believe anything released by Obama and his fellow warlords it appears that Osama was simply gunned down like a pig at the slaughterhouse...OF COURSE his son has every right to claim it´s illegal.

Rant over...

Hopefully the truth will see daylight...although i suspect it won´t.

Ha Ha!!! So all of the sudden a bin Laden wants and demands one of the liberties afforded to American citizens. Didn't seem to care for the American way of life until now. What a joke!

reply to post by ~Lucidity


I only read the first page when I replied.
I was at work and didnt have time to read the rest yet.

It's all good

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Guess a beard and white hat don't count. Maybe what they wear is considered a uniform. I don't know.

Not when everyone around has a beard and a funny hat. Bin laden seems, from his videos, to have been in the habit of wearing camouflage, and strangely enough US "woodland" camouflage (on a US M-65 field jacket), but that doesn't constitute a uniform, since it doesn't have the insignia.

Good points about the blending in, but a bit confusing about the camo. Thanks for the clarification. Maybe there'll be more in the news about this in coming days.

What I meant by the camo remark was that each country generally has it's own home grown pattern, and you can often recognize the nationality of a soldier by the variety of camo he wears. Without the distinctive insignia, however, that's not always a hard and fast rule. In my own "collection", I have camo from several different countries (British DPM, West German Flecktarn, East German Rain pattern, 3 or 4 US variants, and some odd Russian pattern that came out of a rucksack in Afghanistan - don't know the name of it - among others). I could wear any of those to promote the assumption that I was from that country associated with the camo, BUT I'd be subject to summary execution as a spy, trying to pass as a foreign soldier.

I expect photos of the "dead Osama" will be leaked eventually, but I don't particularly care to see them. I've seen folks with palm-sized portions of skull peeled back from head shots before. It's not a pretty sight, and not particularly exciting or appetizing. It's enough for me to know. I don't have to stick my hand in the empty brain pan to confirm it.

Originally posted by tomra
Seriously, there´s way too much imature hate going on regarding Osama´s death. Mythos, right on!

You know, two wrongs still does not equal one right. I wonder how most americans would have felt if the pakistani army executed a military operation without permission on american holy soil, killing a couple of christian terrorist bastards leaving not even a humble "sorry but we just had to do this in order to satisfy our lust for blood! Er...i mean war on terror".

Are you insinuating that the bin Laden compound is somehow "holy soil"? Actually, if some christian radicals killed off a few thousand Paks based upon their religious beliefs, and nothing more provocative, I'd EXPECT a reprisal operation against them at their base. You're correct, two wrongs don't make a right, but one right can set a multitude of wrongs straight, as happened here.

I have all respect for good men and women regardless of nationality or personal beliefs. I also have sympathy for all those who have lost loved ones on either side of the fence but wishing death upon another man is not the way to end this.

I respect them as well - as long as those "personal beliefs" don't involve purposely targeting civilians, women, and children rather than bona fide military targets. I don't even really have a problem with those who are willing to kill - or die - for their cause, provided that they only target valid forces. Those are warriors, whatever their belief involves, and I can respect that. The others? Those who make war on women and children because they fear military action? Not so much. I've no respect for them at all, only contempt.

I've said elsewhere that I'll celebrate the death of no man. I've not celebrated bin Laden's death. The fact remains that there really ARE monsters in this world, beyond the sort that hide under one's bed or in one's closet, and they have to be dealt with, whether you like it or not. It's a matter of preservation of your own people, and some times, it has to be done. That doesn't call for celebration, it calls for action, and nothing more nor anything less. I recall the people in the middle east celebrating, dancing in the streets and selling little "bin Laden" statues in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. If I celebrate this, I'm no better than they.

I just won't go there. That's not where I want to be.

You're right, wishing death on a man is NOT the way to end it. Double-taps do a fine job of putting an end to it, though. Actions, not wishes. If I had my wishes, we could all live together and get along without periodically killing each other off, but that will never happen.

If one is to believe anything released by Obama and his fellow warlords it appears that Osama was simply gunned down like a pig at the slaughterhouse...OF COURSE his son has every right to claim it´s illegal.

Rant over...

Hopefully the truth will see daylight...although i suspect it won´t.

"Gunned down like a pig"? Interesting choice of words. If I were you, I'd not be having coffee with any AQ operatives after uttering that. matter of fact, I'd probably be watching my back for a while, in case they read it.

Anyone can claim ANYTHING is illegal, just as anyone can sue anyone else over ANYTHING. The matter is NEVER decided until it actually comes to trial when dealing with niceties like "legality". I don't see bin Laden's death as having anything to do with an alleged legal system, nor should it. He didn't steal a pack of gum.

It wasn't a matter for judges, juries, or arresting officers - all those things involved in the legal niceties. It was a matter of war.

Edit to add: Perhaps I ought to clarify. I see a dangerous precedent being set in the world these days - a confusion between military action and police/legal action. The two are not the same, at all. From insistence on "terrorist trials" to the local paramilitary SWAT team, the lines between them are being blurred daily, more and more. There is a REASON that the Posse Comitatus Act was enacted. Police/legal action and military action should NEVER be combined or confused. It should not be allowed period, and to allow it sets a dangerous precedent that our children WILL pay dearly for. Some of us are already paying dearly for it, all in the name of giving up freedom to fight terrorists, when people can be led around by the nose and given to believe that one is as valid as the other in each and every situation. THEY ARE NOT.

Originally posted by tomra
Seriously, there´s way too much imature hate going on regarding Osama´s death. Mythos, right on!

You know, two wrongs still does not equal one right. I wonder how most americans would have felt if the pakistani army executed a military operation without permission on american holy soil, killing a couple of christian terrorist bastards leaving not even a humble "sorry but we just had to do this in order to satisfy our lust for blood! Er...i mean war on terror".

I have all respect for good men and women regardless of nationality or personal beliefs. I also have sympathy for all those who have lost loved ones on either side of the fence but wishing death upon another man is not the way to end this.

If one is to believe anything released by Obama and his fellow warlords it appears that Osama was simply gunned down like a pig at the slaughterhouse...OF COURSE his son has every right to claim it´s illegal.

Rant over...

Hopefully the truth will see daylight...although i suspect it won´t.

Two wrongs don’t equal one right, But 3,000 plus wrongs equal a very sick an disturbed person who grew up as a spoiled rich kid that convinced others to give up their life’s to perform more wrongs than rights?? I don’t understand your equality?

Seems to me that this man named Usama has already done did that on American soil..
I have respect for all good-- women, children and men regardless of race or creed or even mental disability’s and I don’t wish anyone death.. but let me tell you this may change at a blink of the eye when you take someone’s life for no reason other than a personal hate.. there is a difference .. if you come to intentionally kill with no regard for anyone then what one does to another is well deserved in return.

have you ever heard of a eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth .. look back in history as to how one was dealt with when they killed ones family member .. you cant tell me you never heard of beheading and putting it out for everyone to see.

Unless you were there and can show me that Usama had no weapon and it is clear that he posed no harm and wasn’t resistant in any manner which indicated his wiliness to surrender peacefully I cannot swallow that he was gunned down like a pig .. for all I know he picked up a ak 47 and blew his own head off .. by the way isn’t that one of the things he specialized in ?? SUCCICIDE??

I don’t condone taking a persons life for no given reason , there is no proof as of yet to determine if he was shot for no reason at all .. Believe me maybe it was a blessing he was because it was bound to happen and maybe you would have been complaining if his death was in a different fashion like finding body parts all over .
I understand Omars grief about his father ,, but does he understand our grief of the many people he killed over seas and elsewhere? I think his wife needs to fess up and admit to what happened or we need to get more details as to what really happened ..

I could sit here and damn him to death but id rather know the truth before I go overboard and claim a bunch of fallacies . We all want to know if it was Illegal and yes I do believe he should have had a trial just like Sadam H. and I really hesitate to even say that due to the fact how it may reopen wounds of all the victims families..

reply to post by nenothtu


Well, my post was certainly written in a provocative way, intentionally, cause otherwise none will read it :-)

The point i´m trying to get trough is that there´s just way too much hate going on and it serves none of us. When a nations leader officially says it´s a good thing the man is dead (not just the US, even my own nations leader has expressed this view) you are essentially telling your people that it´s ok to say "ah, finally, Osama is dead, i feel so much better". This, in my humble opinion, officially promotes hate and killing people as an ok thing to do. Yes, i know, lots of innocent people died 9/11, and thousands have died before them around the world in acts of terror...it´s beyond words...

Just like the sons and daughters of all the people dead in the 9/11 attack Osama´s son also has the right to be angry and ask questions. So far we only have one true source regarding the military action against Osama and to me it simply appears to be an assasination. So many questions could have been answered..

So far we have only achieved more dead bodies, maybe it´s time to rethink the strategy behind the war on terror?

(oh, please let me point out, i hold nothing against anyone based on belief, nationality or opinion. I want the anger, hate and killing to stop. There is no us and them. On this rock there is only us)

reply to post by NorthStargal52


You hit bullseye!

Unless we had the opportunity to be there we just don´t know, actually we agree about most of these issues. This topic need information, not anger, i think we already are served plentyfull with that while we are starved on information.

Regarding rights and wrongs, there is a point to that line. Remember, Osama was not born 9/11, who knows what rights and what wrongs has been done in his life. The equation holds plenty of unknowns.

And again, all my respects to those who lost their loved ones, not just in 9/11 but in all acts of terror for many many years before that all over the planet.

Originally posted by tomra
reply to post by NorthStargal52

 

You hit bullseye!

Unless we had the opportunity to be there we just don´t know, actually we agree about most of these issues. This topic need information, not anger, i think we already are served plentyfull with that while we are starved on information.

Regarding rights and wrongs, there is a point to that line. Remember, Osama was not born 9/11, who knows what rights and what wrongs has been done in his life. The equation holds plenty of unknowns.

I am questioning your statement of "I wonder how most americans would have felt if the pakistani army executed a military operation without permission on american holy soil, killing a couple of christian terrorist bastards"

You made a very hardcore remark for a person who denounces hatred of any kind. can you tell me what a “Christian terrorists bastard” is? I just want to understand what you mean by that?

I only know it is impossible to start claiming things without proof. I also understand from reading that many others say Usama may have died years ago. I only know that there were three witness's as to what took place in that 3rd floor bedroom where Usama, his wife Yemi, and his daughter. Neither the Pakistani military nor the US seals have mentioned any proof of or statements as to what happened from these three witness’s/

It is also my understanding that Usama was a Great Leader of the Jihad terrorist group. He was admired loved and treated like a king. His supporters worshipped him like a god. Children were made to learn the way of the Jihad way.. sort of like our westerners have occults,,

Yes this world is filled with hate and blood has been shed over many of land. I have a choice as to how I treat others-- to ignore jelously and hate and killing anyone, it is far from my mind. There will always be those who express how they feel and some don’t put it in a nice way.
I know there’s plenty of old sayings pay back is a beech. what goes around come around and good ol Karma.

I can't help but think how Usama got any happiness out of killing people and promoting such violence??

What unearth was he thinking? This to me represents a psychopathic person very evil and ill minded and how he could sleep at nights in peace is just incomprehensible to me.

There is a movie called Obsession I will post the youtube link
it's in parts 1-10 it is a movie on radical Islam --Obsession is a film about the threat of Radical Islam to Western civilization. Using unique footage from Arab television, it reveals an 'insiders view'

www.youtube.com...

I really don’t feel that this was a assassination.. I don’t feel it was anything yet .. there is no body of Usama .. No photos, where is the proof .. if you read any of the many threads here regarding Usama you will find many asking for proof ..

you say "So far we have only achieved more dead bodies, maybe it´s time to rethink the strategy behind the war on terror? " this confuses me can you be more clear as to rethinking the strategy behind war on terror??

The terrorists win when we destroy the rule of law and the right to a fair trial which are the foundations of our civilisation.

Vengeance is not justice - and the dead deserve justice.

All tyrannies begin with one state sanctioned murder - as Hitler and Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot show us.

The fact that Osama was accused of an atrocious crime - 911 - meant the evidence to prove that allegation deserved massive public scrutiny in a trial.

The more atrocious the crime, the more important the need for a trial to test the evidence.

reply to post by NorthStargal52


Regarding "christian terrorist bastards"...i´m pretty sure there are islam fundamentalists ( is that correct spelling ) which considers western citizens like that. Just like there are some from this part of the world who think the same about those who are of an islamic belief. I just ment to point out that if the roles were turned, we would probably not feel ok about a foreign military power doing actions on our ground, unauthorized while we kinda expect them to tolerate it because it´s for a bigger more important cause. It all depend on POV and who are we to decide which POV is the right one. I DO NOT see christians as terrorist bastards, neither anyone from any other form of religion. Sorry, i probably came through quite harsh and ask for forgivness for that.

I will check out your link for sure

Regarding the strategy behind war on terror, it seems to me that we are not really getting any were. Is the world a safer place now? I does not appear so to me. It´s soon 10 years ago, maybe we should look for other solutions. What they are i do not know but hopefully something involving less dead bodies, less widows and certainly less children growing up without a father or a mother.

Do you feel the current campaign is working? Like the former president said, mission accomplished. Afghanistan is more tormented than ever before, the afghan people alike. I don´t know..it just does not feel right.

reply to post by leejohnbarnes


Star and applause for sure!
Very well put.

IMO, Of course it is patheic for anyone to support anytype of racial behaviour. One death or 10,000 deaths it is wrong in my mind. age old battles bringing children up to think its ok to be racist to hate to kil to steal. There are gangs and occults who have a need to step into another world.. they create their own laws they make their own rules they feed on weakness to get more support.. I do not have the answers niether.. If this ever goes to trial People will have the chance to hear the circumstances and evidence. So far that is yet to be seen.
Havent you ever wondered about the Pakistans involment with Usama .. It is beyound me how no one in that city of Abbotabad knew Usama lived there.
Yet Usama's son Omar has stepped forward to deal with this in a legal fashion .. I don't condem him of anything for his actions and feelings.. to me that is a normal reaction. I'm just like all the others who are waiting to see what way this will go.
I feel that crime whether it be radical terrorist or a serial killer or a robber who takes a life .. this is how it is this is how its been from time and time before BC.. it's never going to change .. but because it's never going to change.. there will always be war crimes ect best one can do is never allow oneself to walk in those footsteps as for our Leaders well now thats a whole different topic ..

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


How do any of you know that OBL was the 'mastermind' behind 9/11? Because the BBC told you ON 9/11? What about his own statements to the contrary? 911review.com... - In fact, I'm extremely surprised at the number of comments on this thread which mimic this sentiment. 9/11 was horrific and I'm in no way advocating the senseless murder of thousands on that or any other day. But if you're going to justify another mans death based on this date, you need a bit more proof than George Bush telling you he did it... a day after he met with the guys parents and flew them safely back to Saudi on that day.

OBL is the kind of narcissist who would have admitted to the involvement. He admitted to the '93 WTC bombing, several embassy attacks, and many more suicide bombings (though, how someone can be prosecuted for another man blowing himself up is beyond me - the old adage, if you told someone to jump off a cliff and they did, could you be prosecuted for murder?) so no he was no saint, but to murder him unarmed and dispose of the evidence is a cowardly act in itself which brings into question 'what would a trial have revealed?'. I suspect, many US diplomats involvement in the killing of their own citizens in a 'new pearl harbour'.

OBL has been used as an excuse to murder untold times more thousands in the middle east; is that justice?

Consider this: If the UK unknowingly had Bin Laden living somewhere in solitude, and the Americans suspected that to be the case, would your troops invade and behave the same on our soil as they do in Afghanistan? Would we be looking at hundreds of thousands of British civilian deaths - you can't cite that Afghan needed regime change because that was never your official aim, and is an illegal act in itself? So the only real justifiable catalyst for the Afghan war was to find this man. And what? He's not even there. Throw him to the sharks? Pull the troops out now then, job done surely?

Sadly most people will not get what I'm saying and call me a sympathiser, well it's true I do sympathise with any nation who has British and American troops on their soil. Who wouldn't? Put yourself in their shoes. Those 'moderate' good citizens who's lives are placed on hold, shot at, lose family members, because of a crusade for one man who you have no proof linking him to the one terrorist act you use to justify an entire war on.

I can't fathom, how even here on ATS, the general consensus seems to be 'f'in aye, we got him (clap like a sea lion... or Hiraldo). No I don't need proof that he did it or that he's dead, this is great let's have a party for another senseless killing of a potentially innocent man.' Don't question this, my government wouldn't lie to me'

On 9/11 I remember images of Pakistanis and Afghani's taking to the streets tocelebrate the attacks. Shameful. Similarly on May 2nd I saw the same thing in a so called 'civilised' nation. Hypocrites.

Welcome to America. The country with ever stretching borders across the world. Guilty until proven innocent... or shot and thrown overboard.

If we dont extend the right to a fair trial to others how can we expect one for ourselves.

It's that simple,
It doesnt matter what the charge, what level of emotion it brings, how difficult it is to stay calm.

We cannot reduce ourselves to selective lawlessness and claim we adhere to the rule of law.

(now, if and once found guilty beyond reasonable doubt, let the punishment fit the crime very very well)