satan the messiah??

Originally posted by RedBalloon
Are you suggesting satanists and pagans are the same thing, or that pagans are against 'goodness'?

hell no, i'm somewhat pagan myself and strongly believe in goodness as well as other pagans (although i do have my dark side as well). i'm sugesting that which craft is called the devils work because the church was so against stuff like sex, freedom, multiple gods, drugs, and the occult and then named them witches.

then again what is goodness? goodness is nearly in the eye of the beholder and nothing else. the is no real good and evil, and at the same time good and evil is real. its all about balance in the universe.



[edit on 1-8-2004 by mutehalo]

Originally posted by RedBalloon
Are you suggesting satanists and pagans are the same thing, or that pagans are against 'goodness'?

Satanists and Pagans are VERY different. There is no way that
the two should ever be confused. They are as different as
night and day.

goodness is nearly in the eye of the beholder and nothing else. the is no real good and evil, and at the same time good and evil is real.

Quite logical, indeed...!

Seriously, as I was saying in my previous post, there can't be any true religion that tells people to venerate destruction, death and pain. This is why pagan religions, on a Christian perspective, or course, are closer to what true satanism should be, if it would truly exist... because gnosticism or pagan cults are leading people into paths that are different than the ones of Christ, by claiming at the same time that it can lead them toward enlightment and personal spiritual growth. Fundamentally, the sublimation of sex and drugs, wiccan rituals, idol-veneration are evil to Christians only in the way that they are false and misleading ways to attain the Light and wisdom (there's a clear description of this view in the Apostles), an alternative to prayer and brotherly love and shariing, put out spiritually by the workings of the Beast. I don't think that one becomes evil just by having sex with many people of doing ecstacy... but these are the ways of somebody that is BLINDED away from the love of the Father. It's the ways that are evil, but the people that are following them are fundamentally giood people... they are just being misguided...

First up Mr Mutehero- Recommended reading :

God, Christ, and pagan.
� By: Maurits Ignatius Boas
� Publisher: London, Allen & Unwin [1961]

As I understand it: Satan was a later development of the early Church to explain how if God is all good, how can he let bad things happen.

If we want to talk about symbolic interpretations of Genesis, how about this:

The Garden of Eden is a metaphor. In it, we exist in much the same way as many other worlds other creatures- everyting is provided for, simply by it's own existance. In much the same way Jesus talked about how we should consider the lillies, the Garden of Eden was, when we did just that.

What cast us out for ever was not so much knowledge, but rather self awarenes: Conciousness or the world and of ourselves. It was only then that "worry" about what we were doing would start exisiting, and the world as it was could not support us. We would be "thrown out" of this ignorance for ever, never to return.

Ask yourself what does your "Satanism" do for you? Direction? Meaning? Is it simply a rebelion away from the social conditioning you (are) grow(ing) up in?

Consider one last thing:

The Ancient Kazah's believed the following; The Jewish, Chrisitan and Islamic faiths are like countries next door to each other. The Heavens exist side by side, their Hells exist, also side by side. As a believer, the Heaven of your religion exists for you and other believers. But hell exists not for you or members of your religion, but for believers from the other faiths. Best way to stay out of hell is to not subscribe to any of the three beliefs...

soothsayer: where are the BIBLICAL accounts of satan being lucifer who fell, being the favortie of god, musician etc.
satan means adversary. PERIOD!

p.s. in genesis 2 man was created by god (yaweh) as there was no man to WORK the ground! (verse 5). now there's some food for thought. if everything was perfect, why did god need a worker?

furthermore. god said adam and eve would surely die if they ate of the fruit. he said it 2 times. the serpent said that would not happen.rather that the couple would be LIKE god knowing good and evil. who lied?
before you know it, the 1st couples are condemed to a life of hard work, umm, let's see.... isn't that why god needed them in the 1st place?

now here's a thought. perhaps adam and eve were not cast out as much as they ran for their lives from the 'enslaver'. afterall, we know they hid themselves. . .

belief is belief period....
i have many christian friends and many pagan friends....
if what u believe in gives you peace then so be it...

my theory stated in the past post .....i would love to get the opinions of everyone who has read it....i am currently working on a book titled scientific theory proven in faith...need opinions research etc.
thanks
===loss===

First off, let's throw out all the references to Lucifer being Satan. They are two completely different things and are only lumped together because of an error in one of the early Bibles.

Then let's throw out the concept that God can do only good. I find it very hard to understand why literal Christians proclaim that God knows nothing of evil when a: He supposedly created Satan and b: The statement is always made by somebody who thinks that God's concept of good and evil is the same as everybody else's.
To literal Christians, God is capable of everything and more yet for some silly reason they give him a human handicap and deny him the ability to create or recognise evil. What may be anathema to us, may be serving a purpose to God.

Satan in the Bible certainly does serve a purpose. He is responsible for the creation of mankind's freewill. But is he really the one ultimately responsible? Wouldn't an all-knowing, all-seeing deity have realised what was going to happen in the Garden of Eden? Wasn't Satan's creator acting in collusion? He denied Adam the knowledge to refuse the forbidden fruit and then punished him for transgression once he had been tempted.

Somebody here said that it's all about Ying and Yang. I agree. Satan can't be separated from God. He is an aspect of Him - he is part of the balance. Good and evil, war and peace, darkness and light, etc - they are all parts of the whole. I believe that God gave the individual the ability to choose which of His aspect's they wish to follow.

ah good statement that is true to many poeple but as i have said before truth is in the eye of the beholder and you are what you believe you are.....

Originally posted by mutehalo

my cat's breath smells like cat food.

[edit on 31-7-2004 by mutehalo]

Ha Ha Ha Ha- thats the first time ive heard that since Ralph said it to Lisa. LMAO.

To your post- i have never been into any religion what so ever- i have never read the bible, i have never heard a reading from the bible.

Usualy i dont really post back to anything religious because i just dont know enough about the subject to post back.

But your post was really interesting ( for once i read the whole thing) and from what i know i like your ideas.

Now, I cannot provide Biblical accounts or texts relating to Satan/Lucifer being the angel of light, the bringer of fire and music... those are in other texts not recognized by the Church, or they are cross examinations of other myths and legends, but as for Satan being God's right hand man...

It is a matter of simple deduction.

God's gift to mankind was free-will... the ability to choose and do what we want. Angels do not have this, they must do as God tells them, every single one.

That is, of course, with the exception of Satan.

How else can one explain how Satan decided to overthrow God, and start a rebellion? How else can it be said that Satan thought himself better than God, if he had not the free-will to think so?

Satan had free-will and freedom of thought, and had the ability to act out his own agenda.

Now, then, another point, with Satan being equal to God...

Satan was able to convince and lead an equal share of the angelic hosts in this rebellion. How? We already know angels do not posses free-will... how then were the angels divided? Satan had to exercise his powers over them, excert his will... which flies right in the face of excepted doctrine... Satan had command over the angels.

Does this not make sense?

Now, then, we have a dilema... if Satan did not have free-will, then God told him to rebel, to take half the angels with him... if Satan did not have free-will, that means everything Satan was held accountable for in the Bible is merely Satan following orders, from the Garden of Eden to Job to the temptation of Christ, and all points in between.

Did I mention Job? Another point as to the equality...

God took council with Satan. God condemned a man, a faithful man, to a life of death, despair, and misery, all because God and Satan had a bet. God could not just command Satan away, God could not have just told Satan he was wrong... God had to prove it to Satan. Why? If Satan was a lesser being, why would God have to prove, why would He even have to except a challenge, from him?

It is because they are equals, both God and Satan represent the ying/yang duelistic natures. In my opinion, God is the female, Satan the male... but that's on a different post...

OH! About my being unable to give biblical accounts of Satan/Lucifer being light/fire/music... I can easily show you where it states Satan is the Angel of Judgement, if that helps...

On a side note...

Anyone ever notice Satan is just the "Prince" of Darkness? Who is the "King" of Darkness then? Surely not God...

Another side note...

Satan and Lucifer ARE the same being, if you read the King James Bible... and since Lucifer means "Light Bringer"... hmm...

Read this.

Although I am not familiar with the work, it sounds vaguely familiar.

Were the Melchizideks one of the six races Edgar Cayce claimed inhabited the earth prior to mankind? I seem to remember a friend who claimed that Cayce 'saw' evidence in a 'hall of records' beneath the Giza pyramids that indicated at least six races inhabited earth before humans. Anyone familiar with the teachings I am referring to?

Originally posted by everlastingnoitall
Although I am not familiar with the work, it sounds vaguely familiar.

Were the Melchizideks one of the six races Edgar Cayce claimed inhabited the earth prior to mankind? I seem to remember a friend who claimed that Cayce 'saw' evidence in a 'hall of records' beneath the Giza pyramids that indicated at least six races inhabited earth before humans. Anyone familiar with the teachings I am referring to?

Melchizedek, the high priest of Salem, is a very enigmatic character. The New Testament claims that Jesus was a priest after the order of Melchizedek (different spelling). The Mormons believe that they are the continuation of the Melchizedek priesthood and the Urantia Book claims that the Melchizedeks are a class of supermaterial emergency sons of God.

The Urantia Book is the best reference for its own view and the links at the top of the page of my link will take you to the table of contents of the book.

As always, I endevour to provide information in regards to my statements... and as such, here are a couple biblical passages that provide information that Satan is the Angel of Music (Ezekiel 28:11-19), and Satan as an Angel of Light (2 Corinthians 11:13-14).



You can also read here more information regarding the Angel of Music.

*takes a bow*

Anything else?

Well, I have never read anything of merit on Cayce. My exposure to him has been through followers of his and friends who have studied him. I am sure that he prophesied (revealed) that up to six different races inhabited the earth (supposedly including the early Atlanteans) prior to the rise of humanity. Can anyone ellaborate on this or give me a link where i can read Cayce for free? I am a poor American, so free is good.

The early astronomers saw the earth as the center of the universe, around which the Sun, the stars and the planets revolved. Each planet forms its own pattern of movement around the Sun as seen from the Earth. For the ancient watchers of the heavens, those differing patterns of movement allowed them to draw geometric shapes based on the positions of each planet when it was aligned with the Sun. Only one planet describes a precise and regular geometric pattern in the sky - and that planet is Venus, the heavenly counterpart of the earthly Mary Magdalene - and the pattern that she draws as regular as clockwork every eight years is a pentacle.

Who had viewed Venus as being Lucifer because of the destruction that was caused... and that the planet is, in actuality, an ejected chunk of planet...

Going with Greek mythology, Zeus gave birth to [Venus] when he had a very terrible headache, so terrible he split his head open, and out popped [Venus]. Since alot of ancient mythology and legends are based on actual events... it is reported that Venus was erupted from the planet Jupiter (explaining that the Great Red Spot was her origin)...

And seeing as how Venus has a rotation that differs from all the other planets (it rotates clockwise versus counter clockwise), this may explain and origin other than being created along with the other planets...

Lucifer, how you have fallen, cast out of the Heavens... can be read as a celestrial event, something grand happening in the stary nights, something so big that people took notice and felt afraid...

I was going to pretty much type just about everything I've read about Velokovski (not the right spelling, sorry), author of the book When Worlds Collide (or was it Worlds in Collision? I can't remember), which he shows and uses ancient manuscripts depicting Venus as Satan, and the catastrophic events which followed, but that wouldn't fit with this thread.

But never heard of Venus' positions being a pentagram... interesting!