Chemtrail Hell...May 1st 2011...Part 1&2..Debunkers Move Along...

Originally posted by njl51
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

okay, for the sake of science, let's say they are contrails.
One question: How come back between 1998 and 2000 I noticed for the first time a grid of
contrails overhead?

I would speculate 2 possible answers to that -

1/ it was the 1st time you looked or remember noticing them, and/or
2/ it was the first time that a/c making contails actually crossed within your view


now a question on my part - what is significant to you about that date?

There were certainly persistant contrails long before then - including X's and loops and the like - here'sa photo of them from 1967, and of course there are many from World war 2

Originally posted by SaberTruth

I did not say every line in the sky is a chemtrail. I only said that many of them do not behave like normal contrails,

We've already shown how "normal contrails" can behave in all sorts of ways not understood by lots of people - in what way are these different from how "normal contrails" can behave?

and that some of the jets fly patterns that no commercial jet would fly.

straight lines are perfectly normal partterns for commercial airliners to fly.

As are "racetrack" holding patterns.

I am making observations and being open to the very plausible likelihood that there is more going on over our heads than benign air traffic.

Why do you think that it is a "very plausible likelihood" in the first place?

As an aviation professional I say you are qrong. It is not very plausible at all - it is extremely unlikely to the point of being impossible.

One of the best ways for a fugitive to hide is in a crowd; in the same way, what better way to do weather modification or other "black ops" than among normal air traffic?

by international agreement with methods that have gone through considerable scientific analysis and experimentation is the obvious answer to that one.

and it is what a lot of people all around het world are working towards - that is why there are a lot of papers on the subject FREELY AVAILABLE TO ONE AND ALL.

doesn't look much like a "black op" at all to me!

And if there's a secret plan, it wouldn't be too secret if they told us about it after all.

the corollory of which is - since they are telling us all about it it clearly isn't secret!!

The lack of consistency is thus not a problem, and the fact that perfect shapes such as Xs and squares can be formed without jets coming much too close to each other for commercial traffic (the trails all fade at the same rate so they were not laid down over a long period of time) tell me that there is cause for concern.

they could be 1000 feet apart vertically and you'd never know from looking at them from the ground. Or they could be 10 miles apart laterally and at the same altitude on crossing courses. 10 miles is about 1 minute - maybe a little more.

I also know for a fact that the once-common deep blue skies I've seen all my life are extremely rare now;

and I say you are exagerating.

You can look at satellite photos on sites like MODIS show that ther is stil plenty of "celar sky" around the world.

But speculation aside, I remain convinced that there is a definite program of some sort going on that involves the deliberate spraying of various chemicals into the atmosphere.

I thought you said speculation aside - and then you promptly engage in exactly such speculation!!

As always - got any evidence??

reply to post by njl51

One question: How come back between 1998 and 2000 I noticed for the first time a grid of
contrails overhead?

Primarily....it was during the mid- to late- 1990s that more and more modern jets were being put into service, These jets have installed engines that are more and more common, every year. Same time, the older jets (like the Boeing 727s, old 737-200s, DC-9s) were being retired. Replaced. By newer jets, newer engines....these newer engines, because of their design....NOT to make more contrails, that isn't the design goal....it is to be more fuel efficient. THEY, by default, make more persistent contrails. Gradually, more and more of these newer jets are being bought, and put into airline fleets....

The "grid" is merely the routing, of flights. THAT doesn't really change....just, you don't SEE the paths of the jets, UNLESS they make a contrail!!!

So, cart-horse.

Figure it out....look at any map....see how cities are laid out. Draw lines between them, as if you are flying routes between them (over-simple, but makes the point).

Look at a road map. Same principle. D o you ever see a "grid" on a road map????

I just thought i would ad my twopenneth for the denyers here !
Last Wednesday myself and a friend, a friend by the way who shares no interes twhatsoever in this matter or is in no way a conspiracy theorist, left my house to go outside. It was a beautiful sunny morning here in NW England when I happened to say 'won't be long before the planes are over spraying' at this point i looked up and seeing me do this he followed my suit !
Above, I counted 9 trails criss crossing the sky and so did he ! Without me saying anymore he said, 'that many planes just don't fly over here' !
Say's it all really !

Myself I can't believe that anyone still deny's that this is going on !
Patents exist, the technology exists, and governents have admitted it exists !
If it doesnt exist why has one government already banned the practice ?

Chemtrails are real, get over it, now let try and stop it !

Peace

Originally posted by ProRipp
I just thought i would ad my twopenneth for the denyers here !
Last Wednesday myself and a friend, a friend by the way who shares no interes twhatsoever in this matter or is in no way a conspiracy theorist, left my house to go outside. It was a beautiful sunny morning here in NW England when I happened to say 'won't be long before the planes are over spraying' at this point i looked up and seeing me do this he followed my suit !
Above, I counted 9 trails criss crossing the sky and so did he ! Without me saying anymore he said, 'that many planes just don't fly over here' !
Say's it all really !

Yep - shows you have no idea at all about how much air traffic there is over England.

You;re on most of hte transatlantic routes betwen the US & Europe, plus your own internal ones.

Here's what 1 days flying looks like:

(from www.dailymail.co.uk...)

In NW England you have a massive number of flights that you obviously don't usually notice!!

Myself I can't believe that anyone still deny's that this is going on !

then perhaps you should acquaint yourself with facts instea of hearsay.

Patents exist, the technology exists, and governents have admitted it exists !

Dunno where you got that but you've been misinformed or lied to by whoever it was.

If it doesnt exist why has one government already banned the practice ?

To stop it ever happening without regulation - and it's not just 1 government - it is the UN - clearly you haven't really got an up-to-date grasp of what is actually going on at all!!

Chemtrails are real, get over it, now let try and stop it !

rubbish.

reply to post by ProRipp


Oh, really????

NW England

.....Above, I counted 9 trails criss crossing the sky and so did he ! Without me saying anymore he said, 'that many planes just don't fly over here' !
Say's it all really !

"...that many planes just don't fly over here"...???

Au, contraire.......Can you watch YouTube videos???




Find your spot, on the map.....and deny ignorance.

Just another bit of information for people who really have no idea how much flying is going on - this is the Flightradar24 picture from a few minutes ago - 02:52 hrs UTC - so 2.52am in the morning, over Western Europe & the UK



This is how many a/c are in the air IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT!!

and that's only the a/c that have the equipment to be tracked by this commercial service - not all do!

Then can one of you 'experts' tell me what this is all about ?

www.global-warming-geo-engineering.org...

or this ?

climateresponsefund.org...:



Thanks in advance !

reply to post by gdaub23


Real world?

Ignorant fear mongering need not be real...

Photos and videos just don't cut it I'm sorry to say

You need air sample test, like these that I've found:

files.abovetopsecret.com...

files.abovetopsecret.com...

Here's an alternate and more realistic explanations as to why substances such as barium and aluminium are found in higher levels in places:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Links to air and soil sample kits that can be bought and also provided links to labs that can test these samples for them:

Soil sample kit

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ac3a3b6913e3.jpg[/atsimg]

Air sampling unit

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ce239b1b5905.jpg[/atsimg]


State by State list of soil labs

Air quality consultants

Baseline for normal aircraft emissions:

www.coas.oregonstate.edu...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/58ba628b337b.png[/atsimg]

And a means to collect samples directly from contrails:

Requests for access to research flight hours begin with the submission of an Initial Request for Aircraft Support (Word (35kb), PDF (30kb)) to the manager of the facility. Based on information provided on this form, a DOE-empowered advisory panel recommends to DOE an award of flight hours for the proposed use. Then the user completes a more detailed Research Aircraft Deployment Document (RADD: Word (180kb), PDF (85kb)) in coordination with the RAF manager. RAF users not associated with the DOE Atmospheric Science Program will need to work with the RAF manager on an estimate of the cost of offsite aircraft logistics such as 1) landing fees, 2) hangar rental, 3) ground support facilities, and 4) labor and expenses for a PNNL flight crew of two pilots and two scientific support personnel. During the preparation of RADD, schedules are confirmed and safety and environmental compliance requirements are addressed.

The RAF does not cover the cost of engineering studies and airframe modifications needed for custom installation of project-specific equipment and instrumentation. Such costs must be budgeted separately through a contract with PNNL or Battelle. When requested, RAF staff will assist users in estimating these costs.

www.pnl.gov...

Gulfstream-1 Research Aircraft

The G-1 is a large twin turboprop with performance characteristics of contemporary production aircraft. It is capable of measurements to altitudes approaching 30,000 feet over ranges of 1500 nautical miles, and can be operated at speeds that enable both relatively slow sampling and rapid deployment to field sites throughout the world. The aircraft is configured for versatile research applications. It accommodates a variety of external probes for aerosol, radiation, and turbulence measurements and internal sampling systems for a wide range of measurements. The G-1 has sufficient cabin volume, electrical power and payload capabilities, and flight characteristics to accommodate a variety of instrument systems and experimental equipment configurations. Internal instrumentation is mounted in removable racks to enable rapid reconfiguration as necessary. Data from most systems are acquired on a central computer that is tailored to airborne research data acquisition. In addition to acquiring the various analog and digital input signals, it can be configured to communicate with and/or control other systems onboard, and to provide time synchronization to other computers.

www.pnl.gov...

OzWeatherman has explained in the simplest terms, numerous times at how contrails form, where and when they'll form and why they form.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

So you may say "debunkers stay out" but those that you'd call a 'debunker' are the ones who aren't ignorant or lying.

For example, chemtrail believers have been fed the lie that contrails will last a short while and chemtrails will last a long time, this simply isn't the case.

I would take a long hard look at who is claiming to be a 'chemtrail truther' if I were you, the main players are in it for the dollar, preying on the weak minded.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


clareswinney.wordpress.com...

www.youtube.com...


but lets face it no evidence would be good enough, Even if Obama himself came out and agreed it happenes, we dont need to hear from some narrow minded brainwashed clone to know whats being sprayed above us, you argument holds no water you just think you know what your talking about which is ok, there are allot of you it will all be disclosed at the end, if we are wrong no harm done but if you are wrong we are all in trouble.

And if it was proven im sure the next words out of your mouth is "well its to help us we are in no harm " do u run to all sites on here and flap yopu mouth about stuff you dont know about?

Originally posted by Aloysius the GaulWe've already shown how "normal contrails" can behave in all sorts of ways not understood by lots of people - in what way are these different from how "normal contrails" can behave?

I already listed some things, such as on/off in a regular (not random) pattern that repeats across the sky. I've also got video I shot of two jets coming toward each other in close proximity that would not be allowed commercially, jets taking very tight turns (non-military; I know what those look like too), and watched the knobby, thick, luminescent trails spread out into clouds that persisted for hours. Normal contrails may cause a little haze but they don't form discernible cloud formations.

You've shown possibilities, not rebuttals. Consider the SETI project: what did they expect to find? They were looking for patterns that would indicate intelligence as opposed to naturally-occurring phenomena, but how would they tell the difference? Yet they remain (well, until they shut down at least) faithful in their belief that intelligent signals are real. Point being, that if scientists can believe intelligent signals are real in spite of there being plausible alternative explanations, then the counter-explanations for chemtrails do not constitute proof against them but only a possibility. This is why I said I don't know what makes people get all bent about it; can't they allow the possibility that they may be wrong?

straight lines are perfectly normal partterns for commercial airliners to fly.

Exactly. That's why the sharp turns, circles, squares, and Xs are not normal. I've even watched the Xs being drawn, which means it wasn't one normal jet flying one line and then a normal jet flying another some time later; they were both there at once, and the trails stopped and started at the exact same time. So unless you prefer to believe whatever the odds are of such things, I'd say the jets were having "fun" with sky writing.

As are "racetrack" holding patterns.

Do they zigzag? Take nearly 90 degree turns? Draw shapes with their exhaust? Never seen jets in holding patterns do maneuvers like those. Passengers would surely have sued.

Why do you think that it is a "very plausible likelihood" in the first place?

This is the government, remember? The one that was running simulations of jets flying into buildings on 9/11?

As an aviation professional I say you are qrong. It is not very plausible at all - it is extremely unlikely to the point of being impossible.

Ditto for many of your counter-explanations; the odds are enormous, and they happen quite often.

by international agreement with methods that have gone through considerable scientific analysis and experimentation is the obvious answer to that one.

Obvious answer, or desperate guess? Show us the international agreement and scientific analysis before you claim this is a fact, and an obvious one. And do explain why jets having all the same technology are able to fly over every spot on the globe without ever being shot at or suspected of spying. I suppose you'll come up with a story, but the same standards of proof for these claims apply to you as you make of us.

Athe corollory of which is - since they are telling us all about it it clearly isn't secret!!

Telling us what exactly? At first weather mod was denied and now it's admitted. Do you so trust the gov't (ours or anyone else's) that you believe them when they swear there's nothing else going on, and that the swearers are in on the black ops dept.? Do you expect them to openly admit that weather control isn't all that's going on here?

they could be 1000 feet apart vertically and you'd never know from looking at them from the ground. Or they could be 10 miles apart laterally and at the same altitude on crossing courses. 10 miles is about 1 minute - maybe a little more.

Or they could not be... you don't know because you weren't there. You seem very sure that something you cannot prove is true, yet criticize us for doing the same. I wonder at this point what extraordinary proof you would ever accept.

and I say you are exagerating.

You can say what you want. You can call me a liar or an idiot. And I can say you have your head in the sand.

reply to post by gmac10001


Interesting article. I applaud someone being proactive.

But 1 sample collected from several different days isn't the way to go about it, if I'm reading the report correctly the first sample was taken after a period of dry, dirt, dust and many other contaminates build up on flat surfaces.

This is why many householders install a first flush system on their rainwater tank, to get rid of these contaminants that have accumulated during the dry spell.

The second issue I have is the levels of contaminants found, normally when testing levels in water they're measured in mg/L but they can be easily converted, so levels as follows (reason for conversion to follow):



Aluminium 0.058g/m3 = 0.058 mg/L
Arsenic < 0.0011g/m3 = < 0.0011 mg/L
Barium 0.0025g/m3 = 0.0025 mg/L
Boron 0.0166g/m3 = 0.0166 mg/L

Now to compare these with the stated levels of toxicity set out by the EPA, stated in milligrams per litre (also known as ppm):

Aluminium is 0.05-2.0 mg/L
Arsenic is 0.01 mg/L
Barium is 2.0 mg/L
Boron is 4.0 mg/L

Only aluminium is near any notable levels and even then it's right at the bottom.

So, taking all of the above into account, it doesn't really help the chemtrail argument I'm sorry to say.

As I posted earlier, taking samples directly from the source is the only way to guarantee an uncontaminated test.

I do not live over a fly zone, I would of noticed. Planes are very rare over my head since I don't live in a big city.
Then, this Sunday, May 1st, I saw 3 giant contrails spreading in the sky right above my little town and they we're heading towards a place where there are no big airports.

I'm not saying 100% sure it's chems, but it wouldn't surprise me one minute.
The weather was perfect 4 days in a row. Giant white fluffy clouds all around.
After those trails, the sky went grayer and now the weather is bad since then.

reply to post by Chadwickus

So you may say "debunkers stay out" but those that you'd call a 'debunker' are the ones who aren't ignorant or lying. For example, chemtrail believers have been fed the lie that contrails will last a short while and chemtrails will last a long time, this simply isn't the case. I would take a long hard look at who is claiming to be a 'chemtrail truther' if I were you, the main players are in it for the dollar, preying on the weak minded.

Star for you, outside of the clear explanation for 99% of these "chemtrails" that's been posted in this thread several times alone, that's the most intelligent thing in here right now.

Chemtrails is a perfect example of how "alternative" media has failed. Someone somewhere reads a wiki about contrails and how they normally dissipate quickly, but under the right atmospheric conditions, can last all day long.

They then go quote that in a chemtrail thread, conveniently leaving out that last important bit about them lasting all day naturally.

Then a bunch of people read that guys thread, and filter out to all the other sites and threads parroting that contrails last for seconds so chemtrails have to be real.

contrails are water vapor, so are clouds. Under the right conditions contrails can and do last for hours, spread out and almost look like cloud cover.

99% of "chemtrails" and completely normal and nothing to be alarmed about, and the people like those in this very thread, demanding anyone who doesn't believe to disappear, is ignorant, and fueling ignorance in promoting their campaign of disinformation, but we, the logic and science oriented people are the disinfo agents.

Yes, I'm sure half of the posters here are paid by some shadowy pro-chemtrails propaganda company. Who up your own arse do you have to be to honestly believe you are that important. You're completely delusional.

That said, there very well could be some geo-engineering operation taking place and *SOME* of these chemtrail reports could be related to it. 'Chemtrail' doesn't absolutely mean chemicals so get over that.

But to get to the nitty gritty we've got to pull back the layers of crap, and that means people like US tearing the believers a new one when they come here posting the same tired CRAP over and OVER and whine like spoiled five year olds when we have to poo poo on their crap sandwich with a little bit of FACT

Originally posted by _BoneZ_

Originally posted by speculativeoptimist
My Grandfather siad they used to watch planes take off from the base everyday, and has never seen a contrail that stretches the entire viewing link of the sky, and then spreads to cover the sky.

The link I posted above shows contrails from the past 70+ years that do just that. Most planes didn't fly as high back then as they do now. The higher the plane flies, the colder the air, the longer the contrail will remain.

What chemtrailers continue to deliberately ignore is that contrails and clouds are made up of exactly the same thing: frozen water vapor. Contrails will stay in the sky and spread out across the sky just as clouds do because they're both exactly the same thing.

I wonder then about an experience I had - a plane flew maybe 500 yards above our house (almost felt like he was buzzing the neighborhood) and out over the lake we were living by. It was about 2 PM. From it exuded a trail that was very slightly yellow in color. This trail began doing just what the "contrails" of some planes are doing - the trail spread out, hung in the air, and kept spreading. I could still see it at 6 PMish when the sun went down. It was very low to the ground.

So height can't be the determining factor.

reply to post by User8911


I have photos of contrails out in the middle of the desert, middle of nowhere, just because you aren't near a big city or town doesn't mean no planes fly over.

As for the clouds and weather rolling in, contrails have been used to forecast rain by some for sometime now.

When they persist, it means the upper atmosphere is high in humidity. And you know what high humidity can lead to, right?

Rain.

This is actually the very reason I started examining con/chemtrails when I was a kid, because I lived in a with very little air traffic but every now and then I would spot a trail in the sky and then a day or two later it would do the same thing as you described, a front comes in and we got rain, I first thought they were creating rain, then trying to stop rain, then I started to read and understand meteorology.

Once one knows the mechanics of contrails/clouds/atmosphere, chemtrails become fantasy I'm sorry to say.

reply to post by gdaub23


Its mainly water vapour imo, however perhaps it is purposefully generated to mask cerain regions from satellite imagery?

The one thing I want to know, is why wouldn't they do this at night, where there would be no evidence in the sky? It seems fairly obvious to me, especially with the amount of people claiming they are doing it, that they would switch to night ops to avoid the scrutiny.

reply to post by usernameconspiracy

They do. Also.