i have secretly become a believer in Jesus as Christ

Originally posted by AkragonTrue, many called him God... Jesus did not make this claim once. As you will see...

Oh I see... we can completely ignore what everyone around him said, even those who saw him in person and WORSHIPED him as God yet he never rebuked them. Convenient.

But do you realize that the only direct quotations of Jesus are when he was on the cross, and when he raised a little girl to life? At those spots the writer interprets for the Greek reader. So ALL the words in the Gospels, except for those few spots, are somebody else's other than Jesus'. So if you want to play the technical game, play it to the end. And yes, Paul spoke directly to Jesus; don't you remember his Damascus Road experience? Or Paul's statements about having gotten instruction directly from the Lord? Is he a liar?

And the word was God... Meaning the spirit of God...

You can't add words and call it scripture; the Greek says no such thing. You have no justification for this interpretation. Neither can you lift "word" from its context here and claim that since it's used other ways elsewhere, then John could not be talking about Jesus here in spite of the rest of the context. Bad, bad hermeneutics.

This last verse, might seem like "the world was made by Jesus"..... I believe theres two different entities being spoken of here... He was in the world(Jesus).... And the world was made by Him(God)... and the world knew him not(which remains true to this day for the most part, few people know God personally)

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. If we used your principle here in other places, no one could ever make sense of any writing. Words have meanings in their contexts; you can't just mix and match on a whim.

reply to post by SaberTruth

Oh I see... we can completely ignore what everyone around him said, even those who saw him in person and WORSHIPED him as God yet he never rebuked them. Convenient.

You do whatever you like, believe whatever you like it doesn't matter to me. I don't ask why he didn't tell them not to worship him, but i won't assume he was something he was not.

But do you realize that the only direct quotations of Jesus are when he was on the cross, and when he raised a little girl to life? At those spots the writer interprets for the Greek reader. So ALL the words in the Gospels, except for those few spots, are somebody else's other than Jesus'.

Although its true we have no dirrect writings of him, his quotes are all though the 4 main gospels...im not going to quote them because theres far to many....Perhaps you should read them again. For example...

Matthew 3:15
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him

Matthew 4:7
Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God

Matthew 4:10
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve

Again, theres far to many to quote... You're simply wrong on this statement.

So if you want to play the technical game, play it to the end. And yes, Paul spoke directly to Jesus; don't you remember his Damascus Road experience? Or Paul's statements about having gotten instruction directly from the Lord? Is he a liar?

I don't know, is he a liar? He never met the man in person, but perhaps in a vision as it states. Theres no real way to prove he actually talked to Jesus other then what is written. So this is a moot point. I prefer to rely on the ones that actually had contact with Jesus rather then through visions and dreams. So this still proves nothing as to wether or not Jesus was God.

You can't add words and call it scripture; the Greek says no such thing. You have no justification for this interpretation. Neither can you lift "word" from its context here and claim that since it's used other ways elsewhere, then John could not be talking about Jesus here in spite of the rest of the context. Bad, bad hermeneutics.

Perhaps a quote from John then...

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So the words are spirit and life....correct? Now what is spirit...

Well, in most instances in the bible "the spirit" is associated with God, as being a part of God.

Examples....

1.Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Exodus 31:3
And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Matthew 3:16
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

So the word is the spirit, and the spirit is of God... I have plenty of justification for this interpretation, these are only a few examples of what im talking about. I added nothing nor did i take away anything...

I'm sorry, but this is ridiculous. If we used your principle here in other places, no one could ever make sense of any writing. Words have meanings in their contexts; you can't just mix and match on a whim.

Yet again im not mixing anything... Im sorry it upsets you that you can't prove your God was actually God. I can prove what i say. The man never once made that claim, and he also DID say on many occasions to his followers, "why don't you understand what im saying" Clearly many of them didn't get it.

No need to be hostile though, as i've said believe whatever you like... but if you want truth don't assume he said something he didn't. What i say is based on logic and understanding... From what i've seen of your paper these ideas probably arn't your own, but probably someone elses who taught you. A priest or minister perhaps? Though of course i could be wrong... Im assuming, but hey everyone else seems to be assuming so why not join the club eh

Originally posted by AkragonYou do whatever you like, believe whatever you like it doesn't matter to me. I don't ask why he didn't tell them not to worship him, but i won't assume he was something he was not.

And with that I have zero incentive to respond anymore. You don't know why they weren't stopped from worshiping Jesus but hey, any good man would just accept it so it doesn't mean anything.

All I can say is that I'm glad courts of law don't work this way. And I sincerely hope you'll change your mind (the meaning of "repent") about Jesus.

Originally posted by SaberTruth

Originally posted by AkragonYou do whatever you like, believe whatever you like it doesn't matter to me. I don't ask why he didn't tell them not to worship him, but i won't assume he was something he was not.

And with that I have zero incentive to respond anymore. You don't know why they weren't stopped from worshiping Jesus but hey, any good man would just accept it so it doesn't mean anything.

All I can say is that I'm glad courts of law don't work this way. And I sincerely hope you'll change your mind (the meaning of "repent") about Jesus.

Why would i do that? I understand his message completely... the fact is it doesn't matter if Jesus was a God, or "The God" (which no one can prove) or a bloody purple monkey dishwasher... Some claim he never existed at all! Regardless his message is there for all to see. Every word is truth, that i can't deny. The fact is no where in that "truth" did he say I AM YOUR GOD or the God, or God in general. Many assumed that he was and he left them with thier assumptions which i do as well.

So no worries my friend, i don't need to change my mind.

"But who do you say that I am?"

How different are God's thoughts and ways from our thoughts and ways! 
' Not ' given to the understanding of men, But! ALL is revealed through faith..Given by the Holy Father Himself =]

Scripture: Mark 8:27-33

27) And Jesus went on with his disciples, to the villages of Caesare'a Philip'pi; and on the way he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that I am?"
28 And they told him, "John the Baptist; and others say, Eli'jah; and others one of the prophets."
29 And he asked them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Peter answered him, "You are the Christ."


www.rc.net...
This 2nd part of video is easily a greater intro to this documentary =]
( Persecution of Messianic Jews in Israel - Part 2 of 2 )

The God Who Became a Human Being

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).

How could someone who is spirit, having lived for all eternity in the past, become human? Was Jesus a human being just like us?

And when He was a human being, was He still God?

Jesus was prophesied to be "God with us" (Matthew 1:23).

Jesus was a human being and He was also God. There was never a time when He ceased to be who He always was. His identity did not change.

When He was in the womb of Mary, He was God. When He was a baby boy lying in the manger, He was God. When He was a youngster growing up in Nazareth, He was God. And when He was dying, He was God.

This link provided is a wonderfully and beautifully put together tribute of facts and questions answered,, all relating to the existence of Jesus and the ' whys? ' of men.

I ' highly ' recommend the link in my signature to anyone who is hurting/doubting and to those whos hearts have already been made flesh/who have a believing heart.

Originally posted by steven704
"But who do you say that I am?"

How different are God's thoughts and ways from our thoughts and ways! 
' Not ' given to the understanding of men, But! ALL is revealed through faith..Given by the Holy Father Himself =]

Scripture: Mark 8:27-33

27) And Jesus went on with his disciples, to the villages of Caesare'a Philip'pi; and on the way he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that I am?"
28 And they told him, "John the Baptist; and others say, Eli'jah; and others one of the prophets."
29 And he asked them, "But who do you say that I am?"

Peter answered him, "You are the Christ."


www.rc.net...
This 2nd part of video is easily a greater intro to this documentary =]
( Persecution of Messianic Jews in Israel - Part 2 of 2 )

edit on 3-5-2011 by steven704 because: (no reason given)

Right, he did not say You are God...

Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one"....

The God Who Became a Human Being

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).

That does not say God became flesh...

How could someone who is spirit, having lived for all eternity in the past, become human? Was Jesus a human being just like us?

The spirit of God is in everyone not just him... Yes he was human just like everyone else, but his spirit was sent from God to show the world proof of the spirit. Knowing where he came from, knowing God as one would know his father.

And when He was a human being, was He still God?

No, which is what i've been saying, he wasn't God. Only a part of God...

Jesus was prophesied to be "God with us" (Matthew 1:23).

That was the inturpretation of his name....

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Jesus was a human being and He was also God. There was never a time when He ceased to be who He always was. His identity did not change.

True, he was Gods only begotten son... He said so himself, and again never once claimed to be God.

And i'd just be repeating myself if i answer every question or statement in your reply.

So, quick recap....Not God, never was... The spirit of God sure, Prophet of God sure, Gods son, Sure thing....God in the flesh? ...nope.

And just to futher prove my point, you'll notice when he speaks of God he refers to him as his father. Never as himself....he never claims responsibility of being God

I and my father are one... is the closest thing you'll find. And this clearly shows you the he and God are two seperate entities.... There would be no need to imply this if he was in fact God. He just would have said im God.

reply to post by Akragon


sir, in all honesty, i was not aiming this comment towards ' you '.

the comment was made in regards to my topic post. my OP.

However, i truly am not surprised by your ongoings with ' desperately attempting every and any thing a person is saying to satisfy your very thirst for Belief.

I know you want to believe. everyone does. but you just need to ' first ' believe GOD will give you that belief. ( The eyes and heart to see )

Come to Belief !

ALL are welcomed to Him ! ..but first you must Ask the Holy Father through the Lord Jesus.

TESTIMONIES of Jews who have come to Christ =]

reply to post by steven704


I trust none of that was directed at me... If it was you've clearly never read my posts

If not disregard that last statement

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by steven704

 

I trust none of that was directed at me... If it was you've clearly never read my posts

If not disregard that last statement

please stop spamming. ' smiling ' doesn't excuse your behavior.

Originally posted by steven704

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by steven704

 

I trust none of that was directed at me... If it was you've clearly never read my posts

If not disregard that last statement

please stop spamming. ' smiling ' doesn't excuse your behavior.

Uhm, im not spaming it was a statement... Your post contradicts itself so i wanted a little clairification.

sir, in all honesty, i was not aiming this comment towards ' you '.

the comment was made in regards to my topic post. my OP.

However, i truly am not surprised by your ongoings with ' desperately attempting every and any thing a person is saying to satisfy your very thirst for Belief.

Though it was a reply to me...

And whats wrong with my behaviour, im not rude or arrogant.

' SUPERMAN ' and the Super Man, Jesus Christ


" The foremost objection is that the parallels of Superman to Christ are coincidental at best and forced at worst because the creators of Superman were Jewish. "

These creators no doubt have come to believe Christ in secret.

" Bruce’s review spurred me to research that brought startling revelations. "


- Superman and his father share the last name of El—the Hebrew word for God. Thus in the Superman story, when “El” the father sends “El” the son down to Earth, “God” the father sends “God” the son down to Earth. =]

- Superman’s earthly parents, Martha and Jonathan, were modeled after the biblical parents Mary and Joseph—and as I later discovered, ( Mary and Joseph ) were the original names of the earthly parents. =]]

- Superman’s enemy is a villain called Lex Luthor, a name suspiciously like Lucifer. And both figures are fueled by the same all-consuming, all-corrupting hunger for power and glory.
I found these to be just the tip of a Kryptonian iceberg. "

Norman Greenbaum - Spirit In The Sky

Norman Greenbaum, another jew who accepted and came to Christ =]

To this very day people ( unbelievers ) fight tooth and nail to debunk Greenbaums revelation.

Norman Greenbaum - Spirit In The Sky

~ I've got a friend in Jesus.
When I die and they lay me to rest
Gonna go to the place that's the best~



For the link of Superman connection: www.cbn.com...

Originally posted by steven704
' SUPERMAN ' and the Super Man, Jesus Christ


" The foremost objection is that the parallels of Superman to Christ are coincidental at best and forced at worst because the creators of Superman were Jewish. "

These creators no doubt have come to believe Christ in secret.

" Bruce’s review spurred me to research that brought startling revelations. "


- Superman and his father share the last name of El—the Hebrew word for God. Thus in the Superman story, when “El” the father sends “El” the son down to Earth, “God” the father sends “God” the son down to Earth. =]

- Superman’s earthly parents, Martha and Jonathan, were modeled after the biblical parents Mary and Joseph—and as I later discovered, ( Mary and Joseph ) were the original names of the earthly parents. =]]

- Superman’s enemy is a villain called Lex Luthor, a name suspiciously like Lucifer. And both figures are fueled by the same all-consuming, all-corrupting hunger for power and glory.
I found these to be just the tip of a Kryptonian iceberg. "

Wow, that's really interesting.. Thanks for the information...
Vicky

An adored and immensely respected jewish rabbi reveals the coming Messiah. ( A MUST SEE for all ! )

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

NO !
You are wrong !

Quite the contrary, the Trinity wasn't "invented" at the Nicean Council of 325 AD.

Sabellius was excommunicated for his rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity in A.D. 220—more than a century before the doctrine of the Trinity was "invented" by the Council of Nicea!

Council of Nicea Myths


It's just a suggestion... but I wouldn't try and tell people again that the Trinity was invented at Nicea in 325 AD.



P.S. Don't get your Theology or church history from Dan Brown.

I could imagine quite a few from Jusdaism who believe in Jesus Christ.

Including every Christian!

Originally posted by IamBoon
I could imagine quite a few from Jusdaism who believe in Jesus Christ.

Including every Christian!

The Jewish Christians most likely, not the gentile believers... we're pagans before Christ.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by IamBoon
I could imagine quite a few from Jusdaism who believe in Jesus Christ.

Including every Christian!

The Jewish Christians most likely, not the gentile believers... we're pagans before Christ.

Do you mean 'were'? I am not clear about what you're saying - that the non-Jewish original Christians were pagans? Yes, I believe that's true. But the Jews who became Christians, were Jews... I'm talking about the origins of Christianity, but talking about people now, I am not confident enough to speak about 20th and 21st century Jews. AFAIK some are secular and some are observant!

reply to post by Vicky32

Do you mean 'were'? I am not clear about what you're saying - that the non-Jewish original Christians were pagans? Yes, I believe that's true. But the Jews who became Christians, were Jews.

Yes, that's exactly what I said too, worded a little differently.