i have secretly become a believer in Jesus as Christ

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Sometimes the Almighty is speaking, sometimes Jesus Christ is speaking. God can't die, but Jesus can and did.
It's all in context to what we understand the other parts of the bible say.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Sometimes the Almighty is speaking, sometimes Jesus Christ is speaking. God can't die, but Jesus can and did.
It's all in context to what we understand the other parts of the bible say.

Who is "we"? You certainly don't speak for the apostles, Jesus's half-brothers, the apostolic fathers and most of Christianity for the past 2,000 years. You yourself stated for us all that "The Alpha and Omega" as well as "The First and the Last" are designations for Almighty God.

In Revelation chapter 1 Jesus calls Himself the "First and the Last", and in Revelation chapter 22 Jesus calls Himself the "Alpha and Omega". Jesus Christ is Jehovah God, in the flesh. That is precisely what the Trinity is, three persons/one God.

That's what you find with all cults, they find a way to both deny the deity of Jesus Christ and the blood atonement. Let's keep going, and I will be using the Jehovah's Witnesses own translation, the NWT:


Who is "King of Israel", Jehovah God Almighty or Jesus Christ??

"This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, "I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6, NWT

"Nathanael answered him: "Rabbi, you are the Son of God, you are King of Israel." John 1:49, NWT



Who raised Jesus Christ from the dead? God or Jesus Himself?

"19 In answer Jesus said to them: "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." ... 21 But he was talking about the temple of his body." John 2:19,21, NWT

"For if you publicly declare that 'word in your own mouth,' that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved." John 2:19,21, NWT


Jesus said He was equal to God

"On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God."
John 2:19,21, NWT


Jehovah is "Lord of Lords".... and Jesus is ALSO!

"For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords." Deuteronomy 10:17, NWT

"These will battle with the Lamb, but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them." Revelation 17:14, NWT



So, if God Almighty alone is The First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, Lord of lords, then why does the Bible also attribute those same terms to Jesus Christ, and when did the Almighty God "die" as stated in Revelation 1:17-18?

Answer: Because God is a Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all three are one and the same. This has been a foundation of Christianity since the first century AD....

You are in a cult.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Jesus said He was equal to God

"On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God."
John 2:19,21, NWT

uhm, no he doesn't say this at all in this passage...

18Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?

19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21But he spake of the temple of his body.

22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

24But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

perhaps you were speaking of a different passage...

And...

So, if God Almighty alone is The First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, Lord of lords, then why does the Bible also attribute those same terms to Jesus Christ, and when did the Almighty God "die" as stated in Revelation 1:17-18

God didn't die....perhaps your God did...but "the" God didn't die... Nor does it say that in Rev 1 17-18

16And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Yes, If this is supposed to be Jesus talking... he proclaims he is "alive for ever more".... It still doesn't say He is God.

Why do you assume so much when reading scriptures...?

Originally posted by Akragon


uhm, no he doesn't say this at all in this passage...

You're correct, sorry mis-type, John 10:33

perhaps you were speaking of a different passage...

Yep, my mistake, it's fixed now. Same problem though, the Bible says Jesus raised Himself from the dead and it says "God raised Him from the dead".

God didn't die....perhaps your God did...but "the" God didn't die... Nor does it say that in Rev 1 17-18

17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The entity who describes Himself as "The First and the Last" in verse 17 (Above) also says He now lives, and "was dead".

Yes, If this is supposed to be Jesus talking... he proclaims he is "alive for ever more".... It still doesn't say He is God.

Apparently you haven't been following along with our conversation. I asked BlueJay who was speaking in Revelation 22:12-13. He responded:

"God Almighty"

So he is saying that God Almighty is the "First and the Last". Which is exactly what Revelation 22:12-13 says:

12 "Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Revelation 22:12-13, NWT

Blue Jay affirmed that God Almighty is the "First and the Last", so I asked him when God Almighty died. It clearly says the "First and the Last" was dead in Revelation 1:17-18.

Even more damaging three verses later in Revelation 22:16 the entity that described Himself as the "Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." in verse 13 says:

I JESUS.

See below:

12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Btw, this is another testimony for the scriptures being inspired and written by the Holy Spirit, it anticipates every heresy that man has ever devised and has verses to debunk then all.

Why do you assume so much when reading scriptures...?

Assume? What assumption? I've linked the text. You can clearly see it yourself, they only hope for your argument is to claim Revelation is a bogus book written by an impostor.

Which will also fail on an epic proportion.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Who raised Jesus Christ from the dead? God or Jesus Himself?

I very good question, if Jesus wasn't actually dead both in body and spirit for those few days, the ransom sacrifice was never paid, think about that. A christian that denies the total death of Jesus then by extension denies the ransom. And a christian that denies the ransom can never come to salvation.

As for your accusation of me being in a cult here is the cultural definition of a cult from dictionary.com

A cult is also a religious group held together by a dominant, often charismatic individual, or by the worship of a divinity, an idol, or some other object.

The dominant charismatic individual is actually Jesus Christ, so your in the same cult as me then.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


John 10:33 doesn't say he is equal with God either

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Wow, you basically avoided 95% of what I said...

Revelation 1:17-18 Jesus clearly says He was dead and lives again. You yourself identified the title "the First and the Last" as Almighty God. Or do you forget that?

Revelation 22:12-16 identifies Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end, and the first and the last. It says"

"I, JESUS" in verse 16.

if Jesus wasn't actually dead both in body and spirit for those few days, the ransom sacrifice was never paid, think about that.

Complain to the Gnostics about that, they deny Christ died physically on the cross.

I'm not a Gnostic, Jesus died.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

John 10:33 doesn't say he is equal with God either

*sigh*


"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:33


Danger of Cults: Jehovah's Witnesses

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

John 10:33 doesn't say he is equal with God either

*sigh*


"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God." John 10:33


Danger of Cults: Jehovah's Witnesses

edit on 2-5-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Again let me correct you... hes speaking of their law, the jews. Jesus corrects them right afterwards if you read on...

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them,Is it not written in your law, I said, (if i were God) Ye are gods?

35 If he(God...) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

.....

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world(Jesus...), Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God????????????

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Your fixation with JW's clearly shows your prejudice, I am not getting drawn into an off topic discussion that is totally irrelevant to the OP.

Incidentally do you feel the same way about all Unitarians?

Unitarianism

This is a segment of Christianity that will not be denied, and there are millions of us.

Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Unitarian Universalist Christians, Bible Students, Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, some groups in the Latter Day Saint movement, Oneness Pentecostals, and the United Church of God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


to this day there are those who claim to believe God who remain continuing in their own understanding. there are many of His words they could lean on, but they'd rather listen to the voice of mans understanding to avoid being shunned, outcasted and frowned upon by each unbelievers congregation. this is called cowardice.

unfortunately ' many ' are ashamed to this day to rise up for Christ..for Truth.

the Truth is here for everyone to see. but they choose to give their ears to others interpretation.

Again thank you for contributing to this thread. you speak the truth.

one of the great clear indications of Jesus being seen as equal to the Father, was when He answered a question stating, " I AM "

this caused such an uproar and was detested by many ( many unbelievers )

The Great and Majestic I AM

"I AM the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me , even if he dies, he will live, and everyone who lives, and believes in me will certainly not die."

"I AM the True Vine"

"I AM the Way and the Truth and the Life"

"I AM the Good Shepherd"

"I AM the Door"

"I AM the Light of the World"

"I AM the Bread of Life"

"I AM the Resurrection and the Life"

Yes, yes you sure are Lord =]

reply to post by steven704

one of the great clear indications of Jesus being seen as equal to the Father, was when He answered a question stating, " I AM "

Exactly, Christianity has Hebrew roots, He is a Jewish King. Western minds and culture don't grasp many of the "Hebraisms" used in the Bible. "I AM" is the greatest example, Jesus said in effect "I AM the voice that spoke to Moses from the burning bush in Mydian...". Another often mistaken Hebraism is the term "firstborn", in Hebrew it means "chief born" or "greatest born" irregardless of order of birth. Example of this is when God calls David His "firstborn", but anyone who knows their Bible knows David was the youngest son of Jesse. Finally, the term "Son of" is a Hebraism meaning "equal to" or means the same as. Example was when Jesus called James and John the "sons of thunder", they were not literally sons of thunder. In John chapter 10 when Jesus calls Himself the "Son of God" it enrages the Jews a second time, and they try to kill Him again for blasphemy.

Jewish Perspective Online / Cataloging the New Testament's Hebraisms

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Incidentally do you feel the same way about all Unitarians?

Anyone who denies the deity of Jesus Christ, or denies the relationship of the Father and His Son has the "Spirit of antichrist" according to John the apostle. You led this thread "off topic" with your slide remark about the Holy Trinity, not my fault for ending the controversy.

Secondly, you're completely in error about the Nicean Council, Christ wasn't "made God" at the council. It dealt with the Arian Controversy that arose out of Alexandria, Egypt. Might wanna check out this link and stop reading Dan Brown books. There is a reason they are found in the "fiction" section of the book stores:

Did Jesus really become God in AD 325?

Above all, however, the Council of Nicea represented a clash between two theologies, two visions. It was not merely a question of the identity of Jesus Christ, even though that became the main battleground. The key question, however, was not whether or not to call Jesus divine, but rather how to define his divinity.....

It was a controversy that got started with a preacher from Alexandria, Egypt, named Arius, and the council was convened to determine what to say in response to the questions raised by this fellow and his novel approach to doctrine.

Originally posted by steven704
There are many Jews who have come to know Jesus as their Lord and Saviour. and though many jews have begun sentences as ' We jews believe such and such ' ..there are those who are Blessed enough to come to Belief.
There is no doubt in my mind and heart that all the many jews who are being led to Christ today are being called, even by the power of Asking Him for belief they are surely given. just as any human are able to.

I have found a beautiful compilation of jews who have given a powerful statement regarding how they believe Jesus to be viewed worldwide.. many of who's words touched me to post this topic..

www.christianchallenge.org...

That's awesome news Steven! Bless you so much...
Vicky

reply to post by NOTurTypical


NO !
You are wrong !

The agenda of the synod included:

The Arian question regarding the relationship between God the Father and Jesus; i.e. are the Father and Son one in divine purpose only or also one in being.

Some distinctive elements in the Nicene Creed, perhaps from the hand of Hosius of Cordova, were added. Some elements were added specifically to counter the Arian point of view.
1) Jesus Christ is described as "God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God," proclaiming his divinity. When all light sources were natural, the essence of light was considered to be identical, regardless of its form.
2) Jesus Christ is said to be "begotten, not made", asserting his co-eternalness with God, and confirming it by stating his role in the Creation. Basically, they were saying that Jesus was God, and God's son, not a creation of God.
3) He is said to be "from the substance of the Father," in direct opposition to Arianism. Eusebius of Caesarea ascribes the term homoousios, or consubstantial, i.e., "of the same substance" (of the Father), to Constantine who, on this particular point, may have chosen to exercise his authority.

The reign of Constantine established a precedent for the position of the emperor as having some influence within the religious discussions going on within the Catholic Church of that time— namely, the dispute over Arianism. Constantine himself disliked the risks to societal stability, that religious disputes and controversies brought with them, preferring where possible to establish an orthodoxy. The emperor saw it as his duty to ensure that God was properly worshipped in his empire, and what proper worship consisted of was for the Church to determine.

Result of the debate
The Council declared that the Father and the Son are of the same substance and are co-eternal, basing the declaration in the claim that this was a formulation of traditional Christian belief handed down from the Apostles. Under Constantine's influence, this belief was expressed by the bishops in what would be known thereafter as the Nicene Creed.

Quotes are from impartial WIKI pages that have no vested interest and is a neutral source of information.

The trinity doctrine was firmly established at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.
Fight your argument as you have been doing, but please don't lie to people about when it was really firmly established within Christendom. I often wonder why Trinitarians so vehemently fight this historical truth.


I have gone off topic, but I felt it was essential to address this clear lie.
I will be creating a new thread in the future that deals with this exact topic.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Wiki?? Really? You're going to get your Theology from a non-Christian source? Good luck with that!

Problem is we have sermons and books written by the 2nd and 3rd century apostolic fathers. The deity of Christ wasn't questioned until Arius began teaching his hersey in the 4th century. The Nicean Council was conveined to deal specifically with the Arian heresy. The council was in 325 AD, the books and sermons by the apostolic fathers preceeded the Council by over 200 years.

You're more than welcome to your own opinion, however you're not entitled to your own facts.

reply to post by steven704


There still a mistake here...

one of the great clear indications of Jesus being seen as equal to the Father, was when He answered a question stating, " I AM "

So now i have two people to contend with, no problem... please state this verse you're speaking of where Jesus says I AM God...

He doesn't say I am God in any scripture passage, and i'll be happy to correct you if you think he did...

So again please find me this verse, i'll show you exactly what he said in the passage you're refering too...

Jesus was not God.... God's son yes....but not God in the flesh

An old article of mine on whether Jesus claimed to be God: www.fether.net...

Originally posted by SaberTruth
An old article of mine on whether Jesus claimed to be God: www.fether.net...

Interesting artical... lets see here.

Isaiah 9:6 (King James Version)

6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

True, many called him God... Jesus did not make this claim once. As you will see...

Philippians, Colossians, and Titus were written by paul as far as i know. Paul never had any contact or relations with Jesus personally. His scriptures are through "divine revelation" And thus, not the words of Jesus...

John on the other hand did at least meet Jesus... though its not very clear as far as i know exactly how well they knew each other but he knew who he was, thats for certain.

Your passage...

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

And the word was God... Meaning the spirit of God... As you can see here, the first time "the word" of the lord came to Abram. Does this mean Abram was also God in the flesh? Of course not... It means he knows and understands God, for his spirit is in him...Perhaps communicating with God who knows...

Genesis 15:1
After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

So we continue with John and his purpose...

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light,which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Or even the purest essence of the Spirit, without sin, living exactly how God wants all men to live. Loving everyone, judging no one....

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

This last verse, might seem like "the world was made by Jesus"..... I believe theres two different entities being spoken of here... He was in the world(Jesus).... And the world was made by Him(God)... and the world knew him not(which remains true to this day for the most part, few people know God personally) Regardless this is still not Jesus speaking...

So we continue...

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Power to become sons of God...or even like Christ...Yet not "the" christ.

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This was actually explained to me on ATS better then i understood. Some are meant to understand, some are not... I guess thats just the way it is.

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Again, the spirit or "the word" was made flesh... The spirit was not "made God" it is only a part of God...

15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

So again we see no man hath seen God at any time... If Jesus was God in the flesh that statement is false. Yet somehow i don't believe John was a liar...

So to end off your paper...

But Truth is Truth no matter what anyone does or does not choose to believe. The fact remains that Jesus did claim to be God, a fact agreed to by the prophets and apostles

As you said, truth is truth... At no time did Jesus ever claim to be God. Many claimed he was God, but the man himself never once made that claim.

So as i said to NotYourtypical...Have your beliefs, but we all know what happens when you assume.

Assuming Jesus was God is fine if you chose to do so. Though if you want truth, you shouldn't assume he said something he didn't.