Atheism starts with an illogical premise

reply to post by The Djin


You're not an athiest then mate you're an agnostic if you say you dont believe due to lack of proof. Im an agnosic I believe thatr there is some kind of 'god' type energy or what have you and just live my life being good to others because I think thats just the right thing to do qnd makes the world a happier, better place. I dont believe any particular religion, but if something caught my attention and I genuinely belived to experience something devine I may be convinced but that never has hapened. When priests etc tell you to accept Godto me it makes no sense why accept their God rather than another religion? They ask us to just believe, particularly when you are young and question everything. Its such a cop out, its like saying I cant convince you so just do as you ARE TOLD!!!!!

reply to post by Matrix Rising


illogical....what? Yes, I acknowledge that some people believe in god but I personally don't believe in him. I have never believed in tooth fairy or santa and I can't understand why people would want their kids to believe in it but to each their own....on another note I refuse to give this santa character any credit for the hard work I did to put an even bigger smile on my child's face...I think every kid should know there is no santa....if you gotta be good for somebody sake be good for your parents and you...

Originally posted by JAGx1981

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by JAGx1981
You speak of big bang with such authority, regardless of what we think we know for SURE happened, it still is just a theory.

You are aware that a scientific theory is not the same thing as the common term for theory? A scientific theory is a collection of facts that provide explanations and allow for predictions. To claim that a scientific theory "is just a theory", as in simply a clever idea, is not accurate. The Big Bang did happen. At this point we don't know all there is to know about it (same with the theory of gravity), but we know enough about it to make true, factual comments.

Actually your the one trying to be clever with words long drawn out sentences that you believe are true because they sound more logical to you and others from what you have learned.

It cannot fully be explained, it doesn't matter what you reply back with or how textbook you make it sound, there are still too many questions than answers. However if you spend enough time on here you see all these debates going back and forth.

You just want to be right, instead of keeping your mind open, it's common and it's why they debate rages on, maybe not in your world, but in reality it is.

Difference between me and you is you want to be right, but I have already made up my mind and I'm able to live with either answer and don't care if im wrong or right.

It appears to me, that you speak from a position of little knowledge of science/logic (or general philosophy for that matter).

It's not my intention to demand full academic qualifications for joining a forum, but it would be preferable to have SOME knowledge of subjects you yourself take up or criticize.

An example

Quote: ["It cannot fully be explained, it doesn't matter what you reply back with or how textbook you make it sound, there are still too many questions than answers."]

NOTHING can be fully explained, if you regress any argument or position far enough. That happens at the outer limit of epistemology. A place you're far from.

In the meantime (before reaching the limits of epistemology) we have excellent maps or explanations of local territories, as e.g. science describing the physical universe and logic having some useful rules. Are you trying to present a wishy-washy 'we don't know anything' relativism in opposition to these to justify some absurdity?

reply to post by Matrix Rising

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Atheism is truly illogical and doesn't make any sense. An Atheist will say they lack a belief in God or gods but this position doesn't make any sense.

Oh soon-to-be zombie Jesus, please tell me it's not one of these threads again.

You don't have a lack of belief in Santa Claus or a lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy.

...yes, I do. I lack belief in leprechauns, faeries, unicorns, gremlins, cave trolls, krakens, etc as well.

Why do you need to have a lack of belief in an entity that you say doesn't exist?

Now you're just confusing things. We don't necessarily take that strong position (aka gnostic theism), I do take the position that there is no good reason to say it exists...hence I don't have a belief in any deity. You're confusing agnostic atheism and gnostic atheism. Either that or you're purposefully constructing a straw man.

You don't see Toothfairiest who have a lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy.

Well, it would be atoothfaerists...and we don't have atoothfaerists because there's no generally held belief in toot faeries amongst people above a certain age.

You can have a lack of belief in Islam or Christianity but not a lack of belief in God because there's no need to have a lack of belief in an entity you say doesn't exist.

Again, we don't say it doesn't exist. We do say that there's no good reason to say it exists. Even if you say it doesn't exist, you still lack a belief in it.

If you say something doesn't exist you explicitly don't believe in it as well. You both lack a belief and believe it doesn't exist...of course, I don't know of a single atheist on ATS that actually says that a deity doesn't exist, as most of us are agnostic atheists.

In order for Atheist to say they have a lack of belief in God they implicitly acknowledge God's existence. Your lack of belief in God has to be predicated on his existence or it's just illogical.

...no. I lack a belief in unicorns, Frodo Baggins, Luke Skywalker, every single deity that has ever been claimed to exist, the tooth faerie, goblins, etc. I don't acknowledge their existence. At most I'm acknowledging that there is a label for those things and, in the case of deities, I'm acknowledging that there are a great number of people who claim the existence of one or more and thus I highlight the difference by calling myself an atheist.

Again, there's no need to have a lack of belief in Tinkerbell or The Wicked Witch of the West if you say they don't exist.

...there's no need to have a belief or lack of belief in anything...but you still would have a lack of belief in those things if you claimed they didn't exist.

So Atheism is built on an illogical premise.

I don't think you understand logic very well. I hope I explained where you went wrong.

By your faulty reasoning believing in a deity is equally illogical because you'd be saying that it exists...so why would you believe in it?

reply to post by Matrix Rising


A fool hath said in his heart, `God is not;'

psalm 14

reply to post by iLoGiCViZiOnS


You wrote:

["Atheism is based on a ridiculous notion that "Something" can be created by "Nothing"."]

As you obviously haven't considered what 'something' and 'nothing' mean except from a very superficial level, 'ridiculous' reflects back on you, rather than on atheism.

If your post wasn't a hit-and-run you MAY want some further examination of this.

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by Matrix Rising

 

A fool hath said in his heart, `God is not;'

psalm 14

I really hate it when someone uses bible quotes in these discussions.

They have zero meaning to the discussion.

They only have meaning when someone believes in them.

Originally posted by Arcade425
What can be asserted without proof can be disproven without proof.

Just because you haven't seen the proof YET, it doesn't mean that there isn't any.
Most athiests don't believe in God and Jesus and I don't blame them, many self professed Christians don't believe either otherwise they would turn from their sin instead of preaching that it's impossible to stop sinning.

@ Matrix Rising. Interesting points. There are lot more illustrations than the ones you've given.

A true Atheist wouldn't try to disprove God, there would be no need. On;y when you're hoping like hell you are right, yet soemthing knaws inside you that you want to ignore, do you move heaven and hell to find a way to disprove God exists so you can be at peace.

It's similar to homosexuals claiming those that are against them are bigots and will be anti anyone who oposses them.... of course that makes them bigots themselves but they can't see that! Even calling someone a bigot, by definition makes you one.

Someone trying to disprove God exists always seems to point to the fact one does exist. (keeping in mind Atheists are applying physical notions to disprove something with is spiritual... ie in another dimension that we operate in). It's realy funny to watch, I love it, especially whn it gets to evolution and that everything we have now cam from a little microbe in a pond after the earth settled after a big bang... and they can't even explain where the matter came from to create the big bang in the first place. They have more faith than I've got and I salute that faith - it's an awesome display of blind faith.

Feeble minds accept feeble explanations.

open your mind, stop believing these archaeic and ridiculously contradictive beliefs, if any of these people had the brainpower to question instead of follow we wouldnt be in the mess we're in.

Drink ayahuasca, open your mind to the real universe, accepting that you know nothing is the first step

Originally posted by daggyz
Someone trying to disprove God exists always seems to point to the fact one does exist.

What?

The only people who do that are those who can't accept that an Atheist has a none belief in a Deity.

I'm glad to see such sound thinkers as Mysticnoon and Madnessinmysoul take up the subject of categorizing 'atheists'. Thus saving me from doing it more than necessary.

There's a falling (or rising) category:

Those who simply don't care or never have heard about mono-theism or theism.

Those who from adherence to e.g. philosophical or political reasons deny theism.

Those who from semi-religious (but trans-mundane) positions deny theism.

Gnostic atheists.

Agnostic atheists.

I would like to contribute on a no-god, no-tinkerbell basis.

Inside the last few minutes I suddenly have discovered the existence of a trans-mundane phenomenon called Xxzllismimadur. I'm quite sure, that no-one has heard of this before, until it popped up in my brain, from where it's now being presented to the world at large, with the intention of it hopefully becoming a world-religion or at least an argument for something.

(The only thing I want in return is a mansion, a harem, some 15 year old whiskey and the biggest available Honda Goldwing MC on the market. Such are we holies: Modest).

Now to all the unavoidable and querulous types, who can't or won't follow theist 'logics', because they have an education, like to think for themselves or just on general principles want to be contrary, I have this to say:

It doesn't really matter if anyone knew about Xxzllismimadur before. They do now. And now knowing about him (it's a him) denying him only enforces the argument, that he exists. You don't think, that I just MADE THIS UP, do you?

Well, 'logic' aside. This thread and the OP has NOTHING to do with logic, it's just one of the recurrent eruptions of what survives of christian scholastics.

Maybe there are groups of families or congregations, which are the sacred keepers of scholastics. And as soon as their children are old enough, the elders say:

"Now come sit by my (our) feet, and I (we) will tell you about our sacred scholastics, that it may never be forgotten. It will be your holy duty in the next generation to carry it on; fighting the onslaughts from logic, which surely and verily is the work of Satan".

Not knowing the OP author, I can't really say, if he comes from such a background, or if he has such a strong dislike of non-believers, that he'll do anything to miscredit us. Really, really anything, even publicly lobby for non-sense.

Originally posted by daggyz
@ Matrix Rising. Interesting points. There are lot more illustrations than the ones you've given.

A true Atheist wouldn't try to disprove God, there would be no need. On;y when you're hoping like hell you are right, yet soemthing knaws inside you that you want to ignore, do you move heaven and hell to find a way to disprove God exists so you can be at peace.

It's similar to homosexuals claiming those that are against them are bigots and will be anti anyone who oposses them.... of course that makes them bigots themselves but they can't see that! Even calling someone a bigot, by definition makes you one.

Someone trying to disprove God exists always seems to point to the fact one does exist. (keeping in mind Atheists are applying physical notions to disprove something with is spiritual... ie in another dimension that we operate in). It's realy funny to watch, I love it, especially whn it gets to evolution and that everything we have now cam from a little microbe in a pond after the earth settled after a big bang... and they can't even explain where the matter came from to create the big bang in the first place. They have more faith than I've got and I salute that faith - it's an awesome display of blind faith.

Oh Dear D-g, thank you, thank you for sending me Daggyz in this hour of my trials.

I can clearly follow the logic of why homosexuals should shut up, and take what comes. After all they are not behaving in accordance with OT laws some thousand years old, and instead of asking for castration, going in aversion therapy or tie heavy metal things to their private parts they have the presumptuousness to COMPLAIN.

While it's just and righteous to be a bigot and persecute homosexuals, because you have 'god' on your side, it's heathen and probably a sign of closet-atheism to refuse to be persecuted (as 'god' is not on the side of homosexuals).

So in reality it's the homophobic christians, who are persecuted in this situation. O woe to the tribe of Israel (though they mostly call themselves something different these days) when it has come to, that they can't do, as they like anymore. You can't even put a match to a heretic without getting in trouble.

I blame it on the liberals, Satan's brood.

But I'm afraid I have digressed from topic, I just got carried away by Daggyz insight, which blooms when he takes up the non-believing-as-an-expression-of-existential-insecurity:

Quote: ["A true Atheist wouldn't try to disprove God, there would be no need. On;y when you're hoping like hell you are right, yet soemthing knaws inside you that you want to ignore, do you move heaven and hell to find a way to disprove God exists so you can be at peace."]

How true. That's why the mental hospitals get their fair share of religion-psychoses, whereas the atheist-psychosis, while actually being far worse and more frequent, by the combined effort of liberals, satanistic psychiatrists and atheists in conspiracy is kept under cover, so no-one ever hear about it.

The logic is perfectly suited to this thread.

I can personally add, that there definitely must be something wrong with me psychologically, as I don't need a divine daddy, who regulates my life down to the smallest detail. How I envy those free in mind and action, who DO need such an entity to tell them what to do.

Quote: ["(keeping in mind Atheists are applying physical notions to disprove something with is spiritual... ie in another dimension that we operate in)."]

What an interesting, and most of all NEW, notion. Why haven't atheists thought of this, so they could have avoided the humiliation of being 'sunk' this way. I shall, even if not an atheist myself, certainly remember this and take it up next time I join such a debate as the present one.

Quote: ["It's realy funny to watch, I love it, especially whn it gets to evolution and that everything we have now cam from a little microbe in a pond after the earth settled after a big bang..."]

I similarly enjoy evangelist efforts of producing pseudo-science. It seems everybody are happy here.

Quote: [" and they can't even explain where the matter came from to create the big bang in the first place."]

The reason could be, that no-one claims any matter existing before the big bang. But don't let that get you down. Science is in any case satanic.

Quote: [" They have more faith than I've got and I salute that faith - it's an awesome display of blind faith."]

There may be the tinyeest bit of knowledge involved. By the way, how do you define 'faith'?

I really like your post, but...

Originally posted by Watts
My only thing with Atheists is that their argument(the ones I have discussed the topic with) begins with "If there's a God, who created him? Where did he come from? How could he have already existed?"-basically saying that if man can't comprehend it, then it must not be real- while at the same time fully believing and accepting that the Big Bang just randomly came out of nowhere and created everything we have now, including the sub-molecular coincidences that allow life and our planet to even exist as we have it.

I disagree that its a question of wether man can or cannot comprehend god or indeed the big bang. The big bang was (in theory) a random event and is more plausible (imo) than the idea that we were wished into existence by some all omnipitent, unseen, absentee father figure. Random events happen all the time and in many cases, said random events are portrayed by those of religious faith as 'acts of god' or 'miracles' because they have no alternative theory.

If you're gonna use a general rule of thought, it must apply equally to both sides lest we fall into an argument where someone says 2 plus 2 can't equal 11 unless I say its possible and it works in favor of my beliefs and agenda. Where did the Big Bang come from? What started it? What was before the Big bang? And before that? And before that? And before that? And before that? And before that? And before that? And before that? See?

I struggle with your argument here because you choose to believe that god created life, the universe and everything but your are dismissing the alternative theories. Inferring that its crazy to not believe in god and to believe in the big bang theory is saying that "2 plus 2 can't equal 11 unless I say its possible and it works in favor of my beliefs and agenda." One is a system of faith based on the belief in a deity and the other is a system of faith based on the belief of a theory.

To be a science bound atheist is a contradiction in and of itself. It means that you believe that the greatest most miraculous "order" ever came out of total, un-describable chaos, and that a closed system somehow became much, much BETTER over time, which is a blasphemous concept in science. So in order to be atheist, you must as a result, believe fundamental parts of established science are just as fake.

I disagree for the very simple reason that science is based on the interpretation of data, experiments, observations etc etc. Each Scientific fact begins as a scientific theory (the big bang being one theory example) but that 'fact' is still a belief in the data etc. The major difference of course is that science evolves as new discoveries are made and often facts as we believed them are disproved and replaced whereas the 'divine' belief sticks with the tried and tested model of "If I can't explain it then it must be god". A prime example of scientific evolution is that everyone believed the world was flat until we proved it wasn't. Don't forget, whilst science has not disproved the existence of god; people who believe in god have not disproved science; they just argure for their belief as do the people of science.

Second, people believe in black holes without seeing them directly, simply by how their gravity affects the surrounding stars EVEN THOUGH by our own laws of physics a black hole makes NO sense whatsoever... matter just vanishes into nothing and is gone forever? That's also complete blasphemy in the face of science. And yet we have total faith in something that is contrary to what science and math tells us based on how it affects things that are subject to its influence.

Again, no. First off, blastphemy does not exist in science because the nature of science is that every fact is waiting to be disproven because science seeks to learn, grow, understand and evolve. As for black holes, well again you are talking about something which is a mixture of fact and theory which science is trying to understand. Again, science seeks to understand rather than just to 'blame it on god'.

I could equally say God exists because his grace can be seen through the miracles that can and DO result from prayer such as someone who has been paralyzed for YEARS suddenly regaining the ability to walk or a hardened criminal suddenly dropping all of his bad ways and the money that comes along with it to be a better person for seemingly no reason at all.

Yes you could say that because thats what you believe and good for you. However the nature of science would look at that and say "if everyone who is paralyzed prayed to god, why are they not all healed? why only a very very small few?" and whilst you would say "its a miracle from god" Science would say, what about the psychosematic effect? The power of the mind can affect the body in physical ways (hysterical blindness is a prime example) and thus; these people who were 'cured' of their ailment was because they 'believed' they were cured. And as for a criminal changing his ways; thats the power of self. Anyone can change if they want to, anyone; doesn't have to be because god said so.

Atheists don't disbelieve God because they think its impossible for such a being to exist, they disbelieve because its inconvenient to their day to day lives to believe such a being exists.

Not always the case, some disbelieve because they feel the concept of god is improbable (not impossible) and some disbelieve because they have a stronger belief in a different explanation. You don't believe in the big bang because you have a stronger belief in god. As to suggest that "they disbelieve because its inconvenient to their day to day lives to believe such a being exists" is ridiculous because it is no more or less inconvenient to believe in god as it is to believe in the big bang. That statement is purely inflamatory and has absolutely no credability.

Is it easier for one to accept that they will have to answer for un-repented wrongdoing at the end of their life or that they can do whatever they want to whoever they want without ANY fear of punishment from a power that is supremely greater than us?

Or is it easier to go ahead and do the wrongdoings then go to confession to have your sins (and your conscience) cleansed by a few hail marys? To suggest that all religious people are good is as ridiculous as saying that all athiests are evil. Both good and evil exist on both sides of the fence in equal amounts, don't try to pretend that they dont.

Obviously the latter is more convenient... and I even admit that I "get it"... when I was a kid and snuck a few cookies before dinner, it was easier to believe I could run to my room and eat them before mom found out than to think she'll be able to notice the obviously missing cookies from the pack and fuss me out. No one wants to believe that they are in the wrong, its a part of our ego to think its the world around us that must be wrong and we are just reacting to this "flawed" world. Such as, "I only get drunk because my job stresses me out and drinking helps me cope..." or "I sell drugs because my family is at home starving and working at Mcdonald's isn't enough to get them the things I would like to..." or "I had sex with that random girl because she was hot and was down for the cause..." Its not my fault, I'm just reacting.

You are giving examples of things that people who believe in god do as well as people who don't beleive in god. Anyone, who does anything, has a reason, a justification or an excuse and it is the people who judge by their own morale standards. The more strict the moral standard the stricture the judgement and vice versa. Whatever reasons etc people give for thier actions is because they ether believe them (theres that belief again!!) or they have already judged themselves and are ashamed.

In the cookie example, I thought the rule was stupid because I believed I would still be able to finish dinner even though I had the cookies therefore I felt it was ok to disobey a rule from my mother. In my mind, I wasn't in the wrong, her rule was just stupid therefore I didn't need to follow it. And I think that's one of the hang-ups (along with stone-throwing extremist Christians) people have with the Bible/God.

With the cookie example, you didn't say wether you did finish your dinner or not but either way, you took a rule you disbelieved / disagreed with and decided to disprove it; if you did finish your dinner then your disproved the rule, if you didn't you proved the rule. Thats science.

Just my 92 cents...

edit on 22-4-2011 by Watts because: (no reason given)

The bottom line for me is that I don't actually have a problem with god, with belief in god or those that have it. I have a problem with religion because throughout history, countless artrocities have been comitted in 'the name of god' by men (and all religions) and religion in practise is just another method (of many) for man to control his fellow man. In my opinion religion goes against everything that the concept of god is supposed to stand for.

Make that a dollar fifty

reply to post by Annee


ABSOLUTLY! Nothing gets created without a "Creator" Or "Originator" If you will. Yes we are creators as well....we make babies we build things we create things.......but who or what started it? Oh come one people you really thing we just evolved all of this from the elements? Have you seen any such miracle take place EVER?

Those of you who do not believe in a "Creator" thats fine but perhaps someday you will SEE for yourself!

Well I tried to get through this thread. Couldn't. I made it half way when the umpteenth time someone brought up Tinkerbell, my mind just flipped over and played dead for a while.

Originally posted by iLoGiCViZiOnS
reply to post by Annee

 

ABSOLUTLY! Nothing gets created without a "Creator" Or "Originator" If you will.

How do you know? That's BS as far as I'm concerned.

You say that because it is what you believe.

I believe everything is a form of energy as a result of spontaneous action/reaction.

Originally posted by Flyzoid
I have a lack of belief in Santa clause. Seeing that I pay for everything that the idea takes credit for

When you are a child you believe,
when you become a adolescent you stop believing,
when you become an adult you become like him,
when you get old you start to look like him :

just for

P.S You need to believe only if you can not see him...

reply to post by Wonders


I don't believe not because of that quote. I don't believe because a god is suppose to be like super man times one million. A god would have never allowed a pyramid scheme like religion to flourish. If god is real he, is delusional and has been for a very very long time.

reply to post by Annee


Ah Ha so you do believe in something.......we all do. We base our beliefs on our experiences etc etc. I do believe that for every action there is a reaction of sorts so I agree with you there, but FIRST there had to be an action and it is my belief that God created that action into existence.........call it what you will but this is my belief. Call me crazy but to me THAT makes more sense then thinking that that ACTION wasn't started by something greater........