The plant that softens stone.

a reply to: Marduk

their use of tools is strictly restricted to shaping twigs for nests and in one species alone, using small rocks to break open eggs

This is a bit inaccurate.
Have a look at the little video below, from Time, and tell me that this is not pretty advanced behaviour.
Animal Intelligence

Expecting a bird to understand the use of acids in softening rock is science fiction

Well, that depends on how you apply the term "understand". A lot of humans use things every thay that they could not explain the theoretical foundation behind. And while nobody claims the bird in the video I posted above could explain displacement, I think you would be hard pressed to say that it is not using this to its advantage. Would you not agree?

For some other examples of tool use by birds, one may have a look at the article below:

Tool use by birds

A lot of interesting reading also here:

Oxford Behaviour Research

I suspect many more examples could be found. So birds do not only use tools, they even manufacture tools. Some are reported to use bait in fishing.

As to the use of materials, it is inaccurate to claim that only twigs are used by birds. Consider, to take one at random, Cliff swallows:

"Both sexes help build the nest, though the male may begin building before he attracts a mate. They gather mud in their bills along streambanks, lakesides, or puddles, usually near the colony but sometimes up to a few miles distant. They bring mud pellets back in their bills and mold them into place with a shaking motion. The finished nest is gourd shaped and contains 900–1,200 individual mud pellets. It measures about 8 inches long, 6 inches wide and 4.5 inches high, with walls 0.2–0.7 inches thick. The entrance, which is sometimes elongated into a tube, is about 1.7 inches high and 2 inches wide. The pair lines their nest with dried grass and continues patching it up with mud throughout the breeding season."

Source is here

no bird has ever been reported using any tool in this manner

There was a fascinating report by a Colonel Fawcett. He reported about a certain species of bird that build its nest in cliffsides in Peru...

:-)

BT

a reply to: skjalddis

do we know if this plant also grows in the ME?

originally posted by: scubagravy
a reply to: skjalddis

do we know if this plant also grows in the ME?

We don't even know if such a plant has ever existed, so no.

a reply to: AdmireTheDistance

oh, all here say was it, that will teach me to do quick scan the OP as i'm heading out the door lol.

Cheers ATD

a reply to: Exposed2Truth I'm calling Yahtzee on this one. The Incas made up the story because the large stone structures predated them and they needed a mythology to explain the mystery.

originally posted by: reticledc
If it softens rock, then why not the bird's beaks?
Is it that specific that it will only soften rock?
Hmm..

I have personally witnessed the teeth of guinea pigs grow an inch in a wheek . I know hay and food pellets can keep their teeth at proper levels.
It's not too much to ponder that the beaks of said birds are growing at the rate needed to get the holes drilled out for their nests. Also, the chemical process used to soften rock may not affect the birds. Such as the gastric acid of most animals happily exist in our bellies but if poured onto rock, will easily degrade the rock.

originally posted by: PsychicCroMag
a reply to: Exposed2Truth I'm calling Yahtzee on this one. The Incas made up the story because the large stone structures predated them and they needed a mythology to explain the mystery.

The story doesn't originate with the Inca, it came from Colonel Fawcett and has no Incan support.

originally posted by: staple
Also, the chemical process used to soften rock may not affect the birds. Such as the gastric acid of most animals happily exist in our bellies but if poured onto rock, will easily degrade the rock.

Gastric acid is only safe in the stomach because the stomach produces mucus to contain it. Its an acid, it will dissolve anything. A bird without a beak, is a dead bird.

I've read a story similar, but in reference to how the Incas and the Mayas built their stone walls without using cement and the fact you can't fit a knife blade between the joins they're so precise.

originally posted by: andy1972
I've read a story similar, but in reference to how the Incas and the Mayas built their stone walls without using cement and the fact you can't fit a knife blade between the joins they're so precise.

That's not a similar story, its the same one, originating with Fawcett who is not a stonemason...

Unless one were to claim some "stone-hardening" plant used in tandem with the stone softening one, I don't see the advantage of softening stone to make a megalithic structure. Other than possibly saving some time and labor.

As if they didn't have plenty of time and labor.

Harte

a reply to: GoldenGolem

Why would you hope that? Seriously

originally posted by: andy1972
I've read a story similar, but in reference to how the Incas and the Mayas built their stone walls without using cement and the fact you can't fit a knife blade between the joins they're so precise.

I´ve seen some of those megalithic structures but they weren´t masoned from single blocks and fitted together..
Actually only the joining cuts were cut into the huge rock faces.
That´s where this stupid ´no knife fits between´ comes from ..

a reply to: skjalddis

harakkeh-ama bird/Montana Bird/pito bird
possibly the Andean cock-of-the-rock

the Andean cock-of-the-rock is apparently very load in the mornings and irritates locals also traces in india of sacred sap plant mixture used to soften rock
found traces of old stories where the leaf used in Ayahuasca brew is used to dilute and multiply the mixture
but unable to find the main plant described, looking to the bird rock nesting for hints...

the males are easily disturbed, so their behavior is not easy to see.[7] One study reported that the display activity is dependent on light intensity, with the morning display period occurring during the same light intensity level as the afternoon period.[12]

“There exists in South America a plant about thirty centimeters in height, with dark red leaves, which the natives call harakkeh-ama, and whose juice, very corrosive, attacks the iron and … soften the rock “. Further on: “As Fawcett tells us, the pito, a small bird in the Andes, has a habit of digging its nest in the rock, and uses the juice of this plant: the bird brings back a leaf, Hangs to the rock wall, then rubs the rock with the leaf in a circular motion.Several leaves and back and forth are needed until the rock is softened to the consistency of the wet clay.So the bird begins To pit the rock, digging a circular depression which will serve as its nest. “This operation lasts only a few days.” (source)

eden-saga.com...

A rumored story of an Amazonian tribe who have a dislike for the bird supposedly called the “Montana”,states that it would annoy the tribes by waking them up early in the mornings.The tribe spotted the nest of hatchlings and tried to cover it up with stones in an effort to silence their loud cries.Later they had discovered a hole where the bird was able to seemingly melt the stone away either using the plant or its nearly indestructible beak to attend to its young.The bird supposedly has a super strong beak that is similar to the North American Woodpecker and is supposedly able to pile drive its way into stone to make a protective nest
ancientexplorermagazine.wordpress.com...

It would be great to be able to use the acids to make a mold able clay from sand, then harden it.

Lots of fun building in the desert.

Fracking uses acids to dissolve rock.

These plants must also exist in Australia as a guy found an Egyptian tomb, and a large rock that he beleives was melted to create a trough, with drainage. He thinks it was used for embalming /funeral rites.

Interesting article to re-energize this thread?

Science News - Plant that dissolves stone

I would even argue that the explorers description of a bird using a plant to dissolve stone was actually a bird digging out one of these plants from a rock to reveal the nice perfect hole left behind as illustrated in the article!

a reply to: skjalddis


interesting story, indeed. But we don't know so much about that rocks. Maybe it was only limestone? Lemon juice or vinegar can "soften" limestone in the same way as you described.

Total bollocks.
I suggest you carry out some research into the literature. Broken blocks in polygonal walls show that they are, indeed, cut blocks, not just cuts in solid walls.

a reply to: skjalddis

It is not the plant that softens stone, its a riddle, first the chosen stone is hammered to a fine powder, and mixed with other various impurities, then it can be heated and after that submerged in acidic or alkaline solution, the plant solution can be made from a thousand different plants/fruits.
(this only one method, but yields objects of amazing strength and various properties)

And no, this IS ancient knowledge, and NO it is not aliens, although, entities of certain type are and were involved.
Check wiki on,

Artifical stone
Geopolymers
Anthropic rock
Coade stone
Cast stone

Nihil sub sole novum







It is also noteworthy,

That when various ingredients like sandstone, granite, obsidian, quarts, is powdered to a fine dust, and impurities are added, the resulting mix has a much lower melting point, and it becomes very easy to manipulate the crystalline structures.

You can alter frequencies, add properties, like acoustics for example.

Blaah one more edit sorry, Forgot to mention that the resulting material can be made stronger than most natural materials, also has great properties like shielding from heat, or radiation.

LOLZ - we is up to Pg 9 in a thread that claims " plant can " soften stone "" with no actual chemistry of how , or any evidence for this plant

we also have " disolves metal " thrown in too

its starting to smell like magic - esp as the stone alledgedly softened is not specified

but hey - why interupt the blather with science