The plant that softens stone.

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by skjalddis

 

Here's an easily accesible MP3 of a recent interview with the author (I haven't heard this yet, but figured what the hey-ho, it's probably worth sharing anyway)

Well in a surprising case of synchronicity I found this video. He talks about this exact thread...reconstituting limestone to build the Egyptian pyramids. What a strange coincidence.

information-machine.blogspot.com...

Edit to add: He's also the author of the scientific paper posted above.

www.geopolymer.org...

This video mentions the story about the bird, the melted spurs and the jar of this substance

Around 8 minutes in.

www.youtube.com...

I think what's meant is that the plant itself is soft creating a cushion type feeling when placed over the rock, but the stone itself remains physically the same.

Originally posted by hotbread
I think what's meant is that the plant itself is soft creating a cushion type feeling when placed over the rock, but the stone itself remains physically the same.

Out of curiosity, have you read any of the thread? If so, how do you reconcile what you have learned thus far with what you have posted above?

Originally posted by wtbengineer
reply to post by reticledc

 

I was going to bring up the exact same point. And how about the jar they found the liquid in? What material was that made of that the liquid had no effect on it. I double your hmm, sir.

It matters more what the jar was lined with, what substance the liquid came in contact with. As an example, I've used pine pitch to seal containers by coating the inside of them with it. So, If the jar was lined with some other organic substance, the liquid couldn't get to the material the jar was made out of, whether stone, clay or what have you, to react with it.

I would guess that the rock is limestone and that the chemical could be oxcilic acid or other organic acids in the leaf. Like cilantro chelating metals but more of an acid effect you could do it with lemon juice or many acid forming plants. the question in evolution is How did the birds that learn that trick?

Originally posted by dizTheWiz
www.geopolymer.org...

think i may have found something...sorry if link was already posted

edit on 22-4-2011 by dizTheWiz because: (no reason given)

check it out may be what every one is loooking for

edit on 22-4-2011 by dizTheWiz because: (no reason given)

I have just got around to reading the above document that was posted by dizTheWiz and it is clear from the start that we are not just talking about limestone, which we know can be dissolved by acid. I am posting a short paragraph from the start of the document to show what it is about and to make clearer the findings of the research done by Joseph Davidovits and Fransisco Al Iaga.

The organo-mineral complexes are obtained through the intermediary of oxalates, tartrates, succinates, fulvates, etc. .(3) It is known also that the organo-mineral complexes have a very strong dissolving action on the natural silico-aluminates (feldspar, hornblende, laterite, clorite,...) their dissoving action being 2 3 times greater than that of sulphuric acid or hydrochloric acid (4). The most highly acctive organo-mineral complexes are those obtained with oxalic acid, which is found in large quantities in numerous plants (5).

Quote is from the above link, emphasis is mine.
So we are definitely talking about minerals other than limestone, and the article does appear to confirm that the main active ingredient is oxalic acid. Lots of plants produce oxalic acid, including the large number of species in the Dock family. I'm not a scientist, so some of the language in the piece is quite difficult for me and it is only an abstract - not the whole paper that was presented, but hopefully I'll be able to post up a few more points when I've done.

Ok, a few more points from the above article.
The experimental findings that are presented are, despite the initial statement, from working with calcium carbonate. They tested the actions of acetic acid, oxalic acid and citric acid. They found that higher concentrations of acid did not assist the process because of reduced dissociation of the acid, I am not sure exactly what that last bit means so I'm taking their word for it. They found, from what I can gather, that a maximum rate of dissolution was obtained by a mixture of oxalic acid with vingar (acetic acid), but, they also found that alone or with the vinegar, oxalic acid tended to produce a precipitate of calcium oxalate which was very hard and insoluble and hindered the process. This precipitate, however, was found to be rendered soluble with the addition of citric acid to the mixture, which also added its own dissolving action to the process overall.
There is also a table showing the identification of carboxylic acids in various plants, and an illustration of a bas-relief from Egypt showing the use of a liquid to hollow out an alabaster vase that are quite interesting if anyone wants to take a look.

peace
J

Originally posted by kahunausa
I would guess that the rock is limestone and that the chemical could be oxcilic acid or other organic acids in the leaf. Like cilantro chelating metals but more of an acid effect you could do it with lemon juice or many acid forming plants. the question in evolution is How did the birds that learn that trick?

You are right about the acids, but it is not just limestone - see the post above.

peace
J

Can't recall if anyone has already posted this up already..

www.scribd.com...

It is a book by Prof. Davidovits and his son, 'The Birth of Masonry' - a revision of an earlier work, and it is over 400 pages long, but it does appear to cover our subject and looks like it is worth reading.

peace
J

Very Interesting! It makes me wonder, if things like a rock softening leaf exists, what other plants in this world have similar properties!

Originally posted by reticledc
If it softens rock, then why not the bird's beaks?
Is it that specific that it will only soften rock?
Hmm..

I've heard of this before, but don't know the plant genus or name.

I'd imagine if this is an accurate description, this is exactly how the amazing structures and walls were built with such precision.

Also, if the Egyptians knew of this, they might have used it to quarry and shape their stones too.

Even might account for the mystery of how the very (almost impossibly) intricate carving and shaping at Tiahuanaco in Bolivia was made. It's been said before that the rock walls at places like Pumapunku look as though the rock was molten at the site of the joints between adjacent blocks, maybe this accounts for that - the description would seem to fit, with a consistency of 'wet cement' being described.

I'd guess the sap from the leaves is harmless to organics, as as you say the birds beaks would erode away too..the guy with the eroded spurs would have also lost his legs, after walking through a patch of this plant. I'd guess that acid and alkali are out..it may be a kind of specific protein combination that reacts with crystalline structures, such as rock and metals only.

It would clear up quite a lot of mysteries of how ancient blocks were quarried, shaped and fitted.

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard

Originally posted by DONTBEIGNORANT
reply to post by skjalddis

 

This was solved decades ago....

caniyoumyime.com...

READ UP

Another good reason to remove "Ancient Aliens" from my viewing list. They claim ancient alien tech was used for those stones. LOL

I have been reading this thread and still do not discount Ancient Aliens. If you recall, this plant, along with the coca plant were the two gifts fromt the gods that enabled them to build these structures. Is there any ancient culture that claims it's own discoveries and developments? Rather, they claim they were given gifts. Gifts from gods. Who were the gods?

reply to post by missvicky


A fine point, and worth reiterating a few times across the thread... These new discoveries only serve to strengthen my belief that we as a society were shaped and guided by unseen hands, likely the race described as the Anuna by the Sumerians. 'Thoth' (or his equivalent/ alter-ego) the God of Wisdom, Science etc, shows up quite often in these tales of gifts from the Gods.

I would recommend 'Gods of the New Millenium (Alan F. Alford) for an excellent overall description of their interactions with humanity. I'm not saying the author has it all correct (interestingly, a few years after publication in 1996, he did a 180 on his stance for everything in this book from chapter 6-16; I believe he was leaned upon by the establishment...). His tying-together of the worldwide evidence still stands imho, and helps to build an overall context of the subject. Also, his exposition of the functionality of the Great Pyramid is just stunning, and to my mind is the only sensible explanation for the amazingly purposeful design features.

You'll see that the mythology of the 'Wars of the Gods' fits beautifully with the physical evidence - including evidence that the God "Marduk" was sentenced to death by starvation/ dehydration, imprisoned alive in the Great Pyramid. He escaped with the help of a few other gods, and their escape route remains set in stone to this day.

I would love to visit the place, just to touch the surface where once upon a time, gods were blasting their way out from the Great Machine, to avoid certain and awful death...

Incidentally, I came across a great website about the planetary network of pyramids recently. Will try to locate it once more, as it was extremely convincing in its quest - to demonstrate that the entirety of the world's (true) pyramids act as one to be a sort of time-keeping and prophecy device...

Wouldn't this plant mixture help solve many "ancient" mysteries like the pipes going through stone in.. I think China, not for sure and some of the other unexplained items, like the axe head in stone and such?

Amazing OP!! Would love to hear of anyone who tries this. and the "recipe".

While I firmly believe that this process is indeed possible in small applications, a few major components are missing when applied to mass construction projects such as temples or pyramids.

First. The chemical process that the acids present in the plant uses to "soften" the rock obviously dissolve the natural bonding agents created by the hundreds of thousands of years of heat and pressure which form the rock originally. As someone in the concrete construction business, it seems to me that, in order to reconstitute this "slurry" back into a solidified form equal to the strength of it's original, then some sort of hardening or bonding agent had to have been added. Otherwise, the resulting product would be as hard and porous as ceramic. Great for spear and arrowheads, or simple statues, but poor for monolithic construction. Hence the use of horse hair or straw in ancient Rome or the more modern practice of steel rebar.

Second. I think contrary to some of the claims in a few of the links previously provided that the Mayans had the capability to produce the quantities of acid necessary to completely dissolve and re-cast the amount of stone used in their structures. Yeah, the agricultural system was in place, but I'm not so sure about the system to extract and mass produce the acid compound. Along with the system to quarry and transport the crushed stone, and the on-site facility to dissolve and recast the stones. Not to mention the methods of transportation and placement of the reformed blocks. And the idea that they were cast in place by the use of molds seems a bit far fetched considering each block is of a different size and shape.

It's always baffled me that the techniques used to create such enormous and important structures was never recorded. However, in defense of this technique, I find it far more feasible to think that just the edges of solid stone blocks were softened before being fit into place. This would allow for such tight fitting blocks of all shapes and sizes to be placed in a secure formation.

reply to post by amaster


I tend to agree that with large scale construction, it seems more feasible that only the interfacing sides would have been softened to sort of glue them together. Unfortunately, I've never seen any of these sites with my own eyes, that I could make any kind of reasonable guess as to how it was actually done. Hopefully, the research that has been carried out - seems to be mainly by Professor Davidovits - will gain more attention and will be taken seriously by other people who have the resources to take it further, and maybe more answers will be forthcoming.

I was hoping that maybe I would be able to do a little practical investigation out in the backyard, but I haven't been able to do that yet. I don't get a lot of free time to just mess around with stuff like that sadly, but I'll be keeping it in mind.

I will, however, be looking into that book I posted a link to above - looks like the whole text is online - and perhaps there will be further things in there that may help to find answers to some of the questions about how this stuff was actually used.

....

Re. the ancient aliens - I don't buy into that stuff myself, but I do believe that shamans and others were able to access other sources of knowledge and / or the spirit world through altered states of consciousness, and that that is where at least some of this knowhow originated.

peace
J

Originally posted by Ameathia
reply to post by skjalddis

 

I think the plant you are referring to is the Poinsettia.

The Poinsettia (or Christmas Flower).
When it grows in nature, get's to be a large bush.
It won't be a one foot plant, as it was described in the text.

Poinsettia

Originally posted by DONTBEIGNORANT
reply to post by skjalddis

 

This was solved decades ago....

caniyoumyime.com...

READ UP

Do you have a link to more info about that plant?
I can not find anything, when searching for it.
No info, no pictures. Nothing.

Originally posted by maestromason
Has anyone heard of lichen? It is a symbiotic moss that is known to produce an acidic rock dissolving compound.

Maybe the bird over time has found a way of pecking up the compound produced by the lichen, concentrating it and uses it to suit its needs. Just a thought.

edit on 22-4-2011 by maestromason because: (no reason given)

Lichen (or Lav , as it is called in Swedish).
Is a group of a very special kind of plants.
It is not just one plant.

10 things about Lichen

The Reindeers eat Lichen (Lav) during the winter.
That's the only thing eatable they can dig up, from under the snow, above the tree limit, where they wonder around.

reply to post by skjalddis


I found a plant, here in Florida.
It is Red and small, under a foot high.
And it grows on tough places.

I took a photo of one.
Here it is.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e342979cbef9.jpg[/atsimg]

It might be this plant, or from it's group of plants, the text talk about?