What is the most Believable UFO Incident/Post on ATS

Originally posted by RSF77
the fact remains that something is happening here.

Please reread what I have posted. You will see that I have never denied that anything was happening. What I am calling into question is the notion that it is the work of Extra Terrestrials. There is just as much physical evidence for the existence of ET as there is for the existence of any other god.

Zero credible evidence.

We can photograph with clarity some of the tiniest building blocks of our existence.
We can photograph with clarity spectrums of light invisible to our naked eyes.
We can photograph with clarity a lightning strike.
We can photograph with clarity the brightness of the sun.
We can photograph with clarity a galaxy millions and millions of miles from Earth.

Yet, it would appear, that we cannot consistently photograph these bi-pedal beings riding their chariots out of the heavens with any clarity.

One has to wonder why.

reply to post by Furbs


I realy don't see how you being a scientist (social or not) prevents you thinking for yourself and taking an active interest in specific UFO cases - surely as a supposedly objective sceptic you should be curious about the raw data of a given subject and not just make wilfully ignorant blanket assumptions based on lazy prejudice - if you want the opinion of an expert in the field here's an interesting statement from an atmospherical physicist:

"I have been studying now for about 2 years, on a rather intensive basis, the UFO problem. I have interviewed several hundred witnesses in selected cases, and I am astonished at what I have found".

Dr James McDonald -Senior physicist at the Institute for Atmospheric Physics and professor in the Department of Meteorology at the University of Arizona - Oral statement to House Committee on Science and Astronautics at July 29, 1968

link

Originally posted by RSF77
Yea, but we don't (as far as I know) have the capability to mimic some of the movements and defiance of physical laws of UFOs now, and we certainly didn't in the 1940s and 50s. People have reported UFOs dissipating, which we can do with newer materials developed, but how do we explain one point 90 degree turns at high speed?

RSF77, very good point about the reported flight charateristics there, here's two relevant comments from senior officals in the British and Polish Air Ministries but there are many other interesting statements at the link.

"Here we had a number of object seen coming in across the North Sea on coastal radar. It looked like a Russian mistake. Jet aircraft were scrambled. The objects were travelling at quite impossible speeds like 4-5000 mph and then came to an abrupt halt near to one of these stations not very high up. Jet aircraft picked them up on aircraft radar. The objects then simply made rings round them."
"Inevitably this led to the sort of enquiry which you would put in hand if you had any military responsibilities. Had something gone wrong with ground radar or with aircraft radar? We experienced pilots going out of their minds? Were people having fantasies? We *had* to investigate cases of that kind. Over the years - although there were not an enormous number of such cases - there were a sufficient number to persuade me, and a number of air staff friends with whom I had to work, that something was going on, sporadically, in British airspace which we could not explain."
"But we did not particularly want to make public statements about that. Not for something that we had no explanation."
Ralph Noyes,Senior Official with British Air Ministry - retired as Under Secretary of State in 1977



"During the 1955 Warsaw Pact exercises, a radar station in the area of Warsaw recognized two targets over the Gulf of Gdansk. The targets were moving at a speed of 2,300 km/h at an altitude of 20 thousand meters. In those days there was no aircraft with such performance. At one point it was noticed that the two objects did a 90 degrees turn, literally on the spot with no turning radius. This maneuver at such high speeds cannot be done. Most modern aircraft are unable to do so even today, and that was 50 years ago".
Colonel Ryszard Grundmanem - former head of Poland's Air Traffic, Air Force and Air Defense'

link

Cheers.

Originally posted by karl 12
reply to post by Furbs

 

I realy don't see how you being a scientist (social or not) prevents you thinking for yourself and taking an active interest in specific UFO cases - surely as a supposedly objective sceptic you should be curious about the raw data of a given subject and not just make wilfully ignorant blanket assumptions based on lazy prejudice - if you want the opinion of an expert in the field here's an interesting statement from an atmospherical physicist:

"I have been studying now for about 2 years, on a rather intensive basis, the UFO problem. I have interviewed several hundred witnesses in selected cases, and I am astonished at what I have found".

Dr James McDonald -Senior physicist at the Institute for Atmospheric Physics and professor in the Department of Meteorology at the University of Arizona - Oral statement to House Committee on Science and Astronautics at July 29, 1968

link

Well, if you cannot understand why my lack of authority on a subject precludes me from making an authoritative statement, then I do not believe that we can continue our dialog. We are obviously speaking entirely different languages.

The statement by Dr. McDonald means nothing. What do I care what an atmospheric physicist 'found' from interviewing witnesses? The only thing that is important is what is scientific findings were. They were admittedly inconclusive on his end because he wasn't able to provide any evidence that we HAVEN'T been visited by aliens.

Why would I be curious about raw data if I do not have the education to put the pieces together properly? It's like being interested in a French novel without the ability to read French. You could look around at the book and try to get the just of it, but unless you take quite a bit of French, your book isnt going to make a lot of sense to you. The parts you ARE able to figure out are going to be jumbled, incomplete, or in error.

No, it is best to leave science to those educated in their fields. If you are interested in the fields, educate yourself. If you are interested in other people listening to what you have to say, properly educate yourself.

reply to post by RSF77


I agree. The O'Hare UFO case is what brought me to ATS, and I have to say it really did make me go hmmmm. This is possible.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I know, I wasn't here at that time but I read through the whole thread and saw how it came about right here on ATS, it must have been awesome to be here for it.

reply to post by Furbs


Really, god is a joke to me, and it must be unimaginable to some how I can entertain the idea of extraterrestrials and completely disband god. There is absolutely no evidence for god though, and yet we have been seeing apparently advanced vehicles in our atmosphere for a while. How can you come to any other conclusion other than this is extraterrestrials? I'm sure you have an argument for it, but this is just the way I see from what I have read/seen.

I can't tell you from any kind of perspective that you will agree with, but we are probably being visited by some extraterrestrial intelligence.

Definately O'Hare. I started the thread back when it happened, thanks to a family member seeing it mentioned in chicago. So, im biased. That being said, its the most credible, head scratching case here on ATS. So many people contributed, which im thankful for since I was new at the time and didnt know how to post clips, etc.

It all unfolded right in front of our eyes!

Originally posted by RSF77
reply to post by Furbs

 

Really, god is a joke to me, and it must be unimaginable to some how I can entertain the idea of extraterrestrials and completely disband god. There is absolutely no evidence for god though, and yet we have been seeing apparently advanced vehicles in our atmosphere for a while. How can you come to any other conclusion other than this is extraterrestrials? I'm sure you have an argument for it, but this is just the way I see from what I have read/seen.

I can't tell you from any kind of perspective that you will agree with, but we are probably being visited by some extraterrestrial intelligence.

edit on 26-4-2011 by RSF77 because: (no reason given)

"ETs" as we experience them in our culture are Gods.

1. Bi-Pedal. They have been created in our image, just like other Gods.
2. Omnipresent. Many argue Aliens are here, all the time, walking amongst us undetected.
3. Omniscient. They know of our every attempt to catalog them and make us rely on Faith.
4. Creation. Many believe we have come from the Aliens and are not simply animals of this planet.
5. Disclosure. An event to be seen like a 'second coming' ushering in an age when Aliens will openly walk among us.
6. Priests. Priests take the form of Dan Akroid and others proselytizing about their experiences with ET.
7. Prophets. There is no shortage of prophets like Ezekiel and John telling us what the Aliens want and what they will do in the future.
8. Holy Books. From Whitley Strieber to the poster here years ago called sleeper, we have documents claiming to be actual accounts of alien contact.
9. Miracles. UFOs are sighted all over the world. They make a big splash when they are announced, but quietly get tossed away when they are explained as naturally (or man-made) phenomenon.

You do not see Ufology as a religion because you do not want to believe that you are on the same failed course that so many others have taken throughout the history of our species. You are generally a rationally thinking individual, maybe even educated and not quick to jump onto flights of fancy. However, you have taken an idea, filled it with junk science from Nat Geo and the History Channel, and created a mythology around it.

Look at this site. It is the fractioning of the Faith much like the Protestants separating from the Catholics. Some believe the ETs are Reptiles. Some think Grays. Some believe they are humans. And some believe in all of them and have an entire pantheon of Gods to choose from, both savior and devil.

Take this statement, for instance..

There is absolutely no evidence for god though, and yet we have been seeing apparently advanced vehicles in our atmosphere for a while. How can you come to any other conclusion other than this is extraterrestrials?

Firstly, you are assuming that they are advanced beyond what humans can do, so let's take that assumption out, because an assumption will bias logic.

There is absolutely no evidence for god though, and yet we have been seeing vehicles in our atmosphere for a while. How can you come to any other conclusion other than this is extraterrestrials?

Now, logically, if we ourselves did not have anything in the sky, we could look to outside influences for what is in the sky, but considering that Man has been in the skies in one form or another since around 400 BCE, finding reliable data is hard, and logically, Man or naturally occurring phenomenon of which we are not currently aware is the answer we come to.

Yes I know I've heard people talk about how various gods and religions could have been inspired by ETs. It's another interesting idea, but I haven't really looked into like some have.

Originally posted by Furbs
You do not see Ufology as a religion because you do not want to believe that you are on the same failed course that so many others have taken throughout the history of our species. You are generally a rationally thinking individual, maybe even educated and not quick to jump onto flights of fancy. However, you have taken an idea, filled it with junk science from Nat Geo and the History Channel, and created a mythology around it.

Nice attempt at analyzing me, but you missed. Though I do try to stay rational in my thought.

Originally posted by RSF77
There is absolutely no evidence for god though, and yet we have been seeing apparently advanced vehicles in our atmosphere for a while. How can you come to any other conclusion other than this is extraterrestrials?

Originally posted by Furbs
Firstly, you are assuming that they are advanced beyond what humans can do, so let's take that assumption out, because an assumption will bias logic.

Everything is an assumption, the only thing we truly know is that "we exist, therefore we are".. Take this news photo from 1952 for example:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/499b33a31539.jpg[/atsimg]
One of my favorite UFO related photos and the one I was talking about earlier in the thread, I'm assuming those aren't aircraft from Earth? I'm probably right. There is nothing I can know for certain, I'm just taking a good guess and admitting it. There is no bias or religion about it, I am one of the most unbiased people I've ever met. It's quite obvious what this is.

Originally posted by Furbs
Now, logically, if we ourselves did not have anything in the sky, we could look to outside influences for what is in the sky, but considering that Man has been in the skies in one form or another since around 400 BCE, finding reliable data is hard, and logically, Man or naturally occurring phenomenon of which we are not currently aware is the answer we come to.

Right, I'm counting on good old common sense to tell the difference between a natural phenomenon and a designed craft. The main giveaway would be that natural phenomenon do not exhibit signs of being intelligently controlled.

I don't know anything about humans flying in 400 BC, I will have to look up on it.

For me, it's the story told by my mother.

For reference, she lived in south-central KY at the time - close between both Fort Campbell and Fort Knox - and the sighting occurred around 1970.


She, my father, aunt, and older sister were woken by a loud noise around 3 AM. It sounded like an old rusty car driving down the road (her words). She stepped outside, and noticed a circular craft (like a typical flying saucer) hovering approximately 80 feet in the air above the treetops. It had colored lights on the bottom and simply hovered for a few seconds. Then, it shot off into the sky out of sight.

Knowing her proximity to both Fort's, she called the local radio station to see if any military exercises had been planned. They had not. Ironically, when my mother stepped outside to see what the commotion was about, her daughter said: "Don't go outside, they'll take you!"



This is the most believable to me because I know my mother well. This is not something she would make up.

Originally posted by Furbs
Viable 'scientific evidence' for Intelligent Extraterrestrial Visitation on this planet remains zero.

I would agree with you there, to the extent it's public knowledge.

If it was anything other than zero, it would be the biggest piece of information humanity has ever had,

This is an opinion, not a fact. It's a widely held opinion, but that doesn't make it a fact. I would argue that if we were told tomorrow both that: 1) aliens have visited us, and 2) the sun is about to go supernova in a matter of days, the fate of the sun and our own imminent demise would be a much more significant piece of information. Since it's not a fact, you have not proven anything with this opinion.

and would not be suppressed, because the people actually working with that knowledge would be made up of people that dedicated their lives to discovery and furthering science.

However touching your blind faith in the purity of the motives of others, you as a self-professed social scientist ought to at least be cognizant of how frequently abused and misused science is in the service of a domineering state or a powerful clique.

Or have you forgotten the racial theories of the 19th century used to justify slavery and colonialism? Phrenology? Eugenics? Soviet and Nazi science was always in service of the state. What about all of these economic 'theories' that are little more than ideology wrapped up in fancy slogans to justify greed and exploitation? All these nuclear 'experts' from the nuclear industry talking about how safe and clean nuclear energy is - how we need more of it?

What about psychologists being bought off wholesale by drug companies to come up with new garbage diagnoses to justify selling more drugs? Attention deficit disorder? Oppositional defiance disorder? An obsession with 'eating healthy food' in a polluted world of Monsanto garbage? Sounds like a lot of impure science in the service of profit to me.

To simply declare that if a given piece of science existed, it would be openly shared with everyone or used correctly and in the interest of all, is to profess a blind faith in an ideology. It is also a sophomoric view of reality, because knowledge is power, and power rules supreme.

So in regards to evidence of ET visitation, however unlikely it may be, there is always a slim possibility somebody does know something and is hoarding that knowledge selfishly for their own power games. Or it's possible the ETs are just so advanced they can easily remove any trace of evidence whenever they want to. Who knows?

You can never rule out anything, speak in sweeping generalizations, or assign things to a probability zero when dealing with the unknown. And that is just good, basic scientific reasoning.

Originally posted by Furbs
You have a 'belief' as to what these cases contain. The belief comes from your need for aliens to exist, and your willingness to believe that other individuals would not indulge flights of fancy whether out of their own interest, honest ignorance, mental illness, or monetary gain. I do not have as much faith in men.

I also have a 'belief' as to what the cases contain. My belief comes from understanding the nature of humans, their need for importance (especially self-importance) and the lengths at which humans will go to make themselves seem important.

Furbs, I have to say, if you are not being wilfully ignorant here, then you're inadvertently making it look suspiciously like you are. To accuse Karl of being basically deluded is - in my, not in the slightest bit humble, opinion - way off the mark.

I am a research scientist and have looked at this topic as an open minded sceptic. Karl has clearly done his homework too. I do not believe that you have done the same. You may not have much faith in men. However, there are plenty of trained, credible witnesses who have put their careers on the line to get the truth out to the public. There is also incontrovertible evidence that there has been a cover up regarding UFOs on an epic scale. You are ignoring too much data for your proclamations to be credible.

For me you are clearly the deluded party in this discussion.

In response to Nicorette

Touche, friend.

Perhaps I was guilty of zeal when I posted a few aspects of my argument. No, not perhaps, I did. This is the danger when surrounding oneself with the entrenched.

I would like to point out that your examples of scientists working against man's interest is all in an attempt to further science. Making the biggest bomb or lowest calorie soft drink is still science. The idea that we know of all of this horrid crap these scientists do speaks to my point that they can't keep their mouths shut about their findings because there is always a paper to publish.

There are plenty of "C+" average scientists out there, that's for sure. I think their efforts are the ones we need to stay away from on both sides of the discussion.

Your examples put doubt into my theory however, and as such, I reject my theory.

With that having been said,

I cannot explain what the lights over Washington were any more than I can explain why statues of Mary appear to cry. But it doesn't make the lights intelligent bi-pedal ETs any more than those tears make the statue holy.

Star for you.

A worthy thread of resuscitation

Few to add.

Levelland Texas 1957 - Several motorist call the police reporting a light on the road that stops their engine. Once gone, they can start their engines again. Police investigate and confirm the sighting.

Madagascar 1954 - Mass daylight(5pm) sighting of an unusual UFO.

Iron Triangle Korean war 1951 - Soldiers are attacked by a pulsating ray that burns them.

Karl already mentioned these, adding some links

Minot AFB 1968 - unknown object was confirmed on radar and witnessed by several (separately located) military personnel including the crew of a B-52 as they passed overhead.

Colares Brazil 1977 - UFO burns multiple people causing many to evacuate. 2nd link

Another best cases thread worth checking out

originally posted by: RSF77
Take this news photo from 1952 for example:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/499b33a31539.jpg[/atsimg]
One of my favorite UFO related photos and the one I was talking about earlier in the thread, I'm assuming those aren't aircraft from Earth? I'm probably right.

Unfortunately, not a photo from 1952 and not UFOs.

www.blueblurrylines.com...

a reply to: 111DPKING111

Good calls. The Minot AFB incident is almost unique in the number of personnel going on the record and the radar data. I also found the secondary details about an intrusion on the base intriguing. It's gotta be a possibility that the base staff were tested for security robustness, but then why would the air crews be seeing lights in formation with them and landed, unknown airframes on the ground?

Colares? A big case of WTF? Numerous reports, many witnesses, photographs, medical records etc. The only way to explain all of that is to put it down to ignorant peasants in a panic. People are fond of attributing such incidents to the CIA and I just don't know if they could pull something like that off. There was certainly a lot hysteria which would enhance misperceptions, but what started it and why were witnesses describing physical, technical objects in the air? I say 'technical' because these weren't mythical critters or Amazonian spirits they were describing.

There are scores that seem extraordinary to me; too many to list and I'm no fan of lists anyway. One I like is Beverly, Massachusetts from 1966. A kid's in bed one summer evening when she's woken by something and looks outside. She sees flashing lights and an object above the nearby school. Her dad won't believe her and he's pissed because his TV has stopped working.

Her mum and a friend go out to check and see this flashing, 'plate' of an object zipping around in the air above them. It eventually sort of dives at the mum causing her to run out of the way. Her friend wets herself in panic. Other witnesses arrive to see the object and the local LEOs show up when it's all over.

As the LEOs were chuckling at the witnesses, the object returned and appeared above their heads too.

I guess the super-skeptical would suggest hysteria, a (quiet) helicopter and possibly Mars was out early in the April sky.

Damon, Texas 1965 is also one of my personal favourites too. It's got so many elements that complicate conventional explanations and yet are thematic in these claimed encounters. Topcliffe is another one. RAF staff report an object following a Meteor plane and then watch this solid, disc-shaped thing slowly descend like a falling leaf. It stops, spinning on its axis, and then ascends at speed into the sky and is lost from sight.

There are so many fascinating unexplained cases; and the FACT that most people don't know about them is just more evidence of a massive cover-up (though some details get out sometimes).

Most people would put knowledge of ET's or an ongoing ET interaction with earth on or near the top of their list of the topics they are most interested in and consider most significant for earth and the human race, and if these cases were more widely known they would be discussed much more often and part of our culture, like other significant events in human history. Yet maybe 5% of the population or probably much less even is aware of them.

Here was a great case recently discussed on ATS, one that I had never heard about until I saw the thread, alone it is a smoking gun and proof of an ET interaction with earth, the proof that all the "debunkers" constantly request; yet it was dismissed for flimsy reasons.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



EBE's witnessed by over 60 school children

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE


Here was a great case recently discussed on ATS, one that I had never heard about until I saw the thread, alone it is a smoking gun and proof of an ET interaction with earth, the proof that all the "debunkers" constantly request; yet it was dismissed for flimsy reasons.

Interesting video. Thanks for posting that.

It seems pretty certain that something strange happened. What exactly is less certain. I was really into John Mack at one point but watching the video I was struck by how he was leading the children in the interviews. It was subtle but definitely happening. For example, in the interview starting at 4:20 where the answer he is looking for is that the witness received telepathic messages from the beings in the craft. Note that none of the children in the original interviews in the video suggest they received telepathic messages but one of the students twenty years later states it definitively.

Once again, not saying nothing happened. Just wondering what it was.

Has anyone here heard of the Fox Lake UFO sighting in the Yukon?

www.ufobc.ca...

www.youtube.com...

My dad saw it personally. He was interviewed by APTN I believe, his face isn't shown but his name is mentioned and his story is told, his name is Danny Skookum.

I was still just a little guy at the time, so I wasn't with my dad and he didn't tell me the story until I was a bit older. My dad has always been a big UFO believer, and that has been passed on to me and my brother. At the time, we lived in a small town called Carmacks, 2 hours outside of Whitehorse. We frequently saw strange lights in the sky, sometimes the dogs would be barking at the lights in the sky as well.

If there's one UFO encounter I 100% believe in, it's this particular incident. My dad is an intelligent man, he's not one to make stuff up and obviously this encounter was backed up by numerous other people. I just wish I had been a bit older at the time so I could've been with him.

originally posted by: MetroidPrime
Has anyone here heard of the Fox Lake UFO sighting in the Yukon?

www.ufobc.ca...

www.youtube.com...

My dad saw it personally. He was interviewed by APTN I believe, his face isn't shown but his name is mentioned and his story is told, his name is Danny Skookum.

I was still just a little guy at the time, so I wasn't with my dad and he didn't tell me the story until I was a bit older. My dad has always been a big UFO believer, and that has been passed on to me and my brother. At the time, we lived in a small town called Carmacks, 2 hours outside of Whitehorse. We frequently saw strange lights in the sky, sometimes the dogs would be barking at the lights in the sky as well.

If there's one UFO encounter I 100% believe in, it's this particular incident. My dad is an intelligent man, he's not one to make stuff up and obviously this encounter was backed up by numerous other people. I just wish I had been a bit older at the time so I could've been with him.

Thanks for sharing, a very interesting case.

What is the chance of getting your Dad on here to tell the story?

Or, failing that, can you and others in your family put the pieces of the story together and tell it on here? I'm sure many would like to hear it. I'm assuming there were no pictures or videos of the event, or any other kind of physical evidence. But that's okay, good witness testimony can be credible as well.