Gays adopting and childrens rights

Spacejump needs to get out and observe society and the different cliques with it before he can tell everyone what is stable and what it not. God has spoken to me and told me people with that warped of a view deserve a swift kick to the nuts.

Garon:

Duh! Do the research and you will come to the same conclusion. One friend I have (Sue), since 1987 has gone from being a lesbian to being straight (as being a lesbian was too hard) to going lesbian again then going straight again and getting married. Another friend (Gary) went from being straight to being bi to being gay to being straight and getting married.

Now that's REALLY STABLE isn't it - NOT!

----------------------------------------------------

Well, I seem to have upset a few people.

Good.

If you can't be bothered getting off your lazy a$$es and actually do some reading then your problem.

If you actually read:

www.christian.org.uk...

AND ignored the site address AND actually read the document AND actually reads THE REFERENCED INDEPENDENT STUDIES then you could make intelligent comments based on KNOWLEDGE.

So far I have half as#ed ditches of cr@p where the authors simply can't be bothered.

As for you who think I hate gays, well you're wrong. I know you won't believe me but personally, I don't care - I know what I believe.

There is one person who seems to have a bit of knowledge but he/she also makes ASSUMPTIONS.

So, there you have it.

It's easy to make keyboard comments that take two seconds to write but to actually read something requires more effort and, well, sometimes it's too hard isn't it.

This thread was supposed to be constructive to find some independent viewpoints about childrens rights but guess what:

YOU ALL FOCUS ON THE GAY COUPLES RIGHTS

I now know where you're all coming from.

Sorry, but I'm not making any more comments as this thread, as far as I'm concerned is about gay couples and not childrens rights.

Cheers

JS

I use to be staight, then I started going to church got fed with with the dogma they were pushing and renounced my straightness. I pray and am spiritual and I know God does NOT have a problem with homosexuality, which as difficult as it is for some to comprehend, it is natural. No sex till marriage is not and their sexual frustration probaly comes out as hatred toward the queer folks.

Originally posted by jumpspace
Garon:

Duh! Do the research and you will come to the same conclusion. One friend I have (Sue), since 1987 has gone from being a lesbian to being straight (as being a lesbian was too hard) to going lesbian again then going straight again and getting married. Another friend (Gary) went from being straight to being bi to being gay to being straight and getting married.

Now that's REALLY STABLE isn't it - NOT!

I don't need to "do the research" I live it every day. I cannot comment on the lives of your friends but it does appear to me they may be bending to an outside influence. Who knows.

The title of this thread is "Gays adopting and childrens rights"

A child has the right to a happy loving home and you can't say that this is not possible in a home that consists of a same sex couple.

A gay couple should have the opportunity to provide that home.

Or should we leave them in state run institutions?

Your friends are not indicitive of the entire gay culture.

To use 2 people as an example to discredit the stability of millions of people is foolish.

I hear people saying there are gay animals in nature all the time and whatnot but I am just curious, but when has anyone here actually seen a gay animal couple in "nature". Nature, the natural environment or in the wild can only mean an environment void of human corruption, because lets face it, humans seem to be the only animals in the world that cannot co-exist with nature peacefully, thus making us and any environment in which we exist with animals unnatural.

As well, gay dogs owned by humans does not count because all domesticated dogs are no longer natural or naturally existing since they have been chosen by humans as an animal to be shaped into a tool for our purposes. They are either for emotional companionship, gaurds, scouts, hunters, or helpers for disability. These facts autmatcially forfeits any gay dogs from "we see gay animals all the time in nature" because it is not occuring in a natural, uncorrupted environment.

As well we will not consider any gay animals in zoos, research labs, and aquariums, because of the obvious fact that they are completely deprived of their natural environment of openness, freedom and way of life as they would live in whatever natural environment they were taken from, or never knew because they were born into a life of captivity. The reason I rule these out is because there are numerous variables from a human environment and the effects it has on an animal that could cause it to alter its way of life.

Now we could or could not take into account wildlife preserves, national/state parks and conservation areas depending on the human impact on each one. Any significant human impact, such as feeding zones, camp sites and recreation areas would disqualify that area, but not to say the whole park.

Either way my point being, taking into consideration anything "unnatural" I have attempted to explain and by every individuals own experience, has there been a recorded/documented case of gay behavior or couples in the animal kingdom in a natural environment away from the corruption of man or has anyone personaly witnessed gay behavior or couples in animals that he/she could clearly or definetly tell the gender differences/similarities in a natural environment? This does not count squirrels in your backyard even if you could surely tell the gender of each.

We have read in news articles about scientists witnessing things but I dont remember seeing any sources of where the event took place or animals were located?

We do not see herds of animals on discovery channel with a few same sex animals mating or showing gay behavior. And if someone has witnessed such things or it has been documented, does anyone take into consideration or bother to follow up on the treatment from other animals in that environment and how they react to such behavior? I mean if this can be researched for a fact than I believe it would prove for a fact whether or not being gay is natural or not, although my belief is that it is not. because of the simple formula that

male+male = 0 offspring female+female=0 offspring female+male=offspring (granted there be no physical barriers such as lack of genitalia, radiation exposure, hereditary defetcs, etc..)

As far as I can see, homosexual behavior/individuals are the result of an unnatural occurence/event in the individuals life. Whether it be the effect of a child seeing a father treating the mother with such disrespect that it gives the child's undeveloped mind the idea that women are not good therefore causing a significant priority in socializing and perhaps becoming intimate with the same sex if it is a male, or female becoming afraid of a male figure and therefore choosing to life with females. Whether a certain child was abused by either parent causing similar reactions. Maybe the child had a bad first experience with the very first encoutner of the oposite sex and therefore became harder to socialize with the opposite sex and decided it would be easier to choose relate to the same sex. Maybe a certian parent was so persistent with imbedding certain beliefes into a child that it turned that child off from the same sex of tha particular parent out of fear and hate? As far as I know every gay or "bi" individual I have encountered that I actually became familiar with and talked aobut it realized that they had such a problem or something similar. I dont hate or fear homosexuals, but I definetly agree that it is not natural and therefore innapropriate. It is not to say that these situations would cause a child to go homosexual because alot of the times the child is strong enough in the mind to get through it.

I have a friend who is a male and he was raised by lesbian parents. At the time we met him when we were all but children in elementry school he was already acting quite feminine and girly. I convinced my friends to accept him at the time and we helped him become more masculine and manly through the years. He is straight has a girlfriend but unfortunately has a hateful view of homosexuals, particularly his mom and any one of her girlfriends she may be with.

Well my point is homosexuality is unnatural, whether or not anyone believes it is right or wrong. It should not be met with hatred or fear but with tolerance and education.

Regardless I believe homosexual couples seeking to adopt children should not be allowed because it would be unnatural, just like smoking cigarettes, doing drugs, polluting the world, and wasteful living. Unfortunately it will come to pass and simply add another burden to society.

Homosexuality does occur in nature, this has been proven many times over and for the sake of a good argument, try not to allow your personal biased observations in such, I have a freind raised by two fathers, and he grew up to be a straight highly educated young man. These are conditioned myths only further perpetuated by homophobia and cultural indoctrination.

There are many children in need of loving parents, lets give them a chance to have such.

People need to grow up.

Deep

I did not state that having homosexual parents will 100% ensure a homosexual child. I simply gave my observation of my experience with a child beocmign corrupted. I have tried finding documentary or actual physical evidence in the form of pictures or video of actualy proven gay animals in nature, as in the nature that is truly natural and uncorrupted by humans. Im sorry to say I failed to find such evidence. I probably wasnt looking hard enough though. I havnt even honestly seen homosexual behaviors amongst animals in the city. I have walked through mountain forests in the northeast before that are virtually untouched by humans, I saw many animals, yet I do not recall ever seeing any kind of homosexual behavior between any animals of which gender I could specificaly identify. I have been in the jungles in Colombia when I went to go visit relatives years ago and neither can I recall that. The only time I can honestly say I have never seen homosexual behavior between animals asie from dogs whos owners havnt really exposed them to the opposite sex and they just kind hump any dog they see. If it has proven which animal was proven and where? If it was in the forests of the amazon or the plains in Africa or mountains in Europe asias or americas virtually free of human corruption and is on file of what animal it was I want to know. It would definetly shut me up and I would probably end up altering my view on the issue. As far as what is known though it is still unnatural. The natural thing in naimals is the males fending off any male intruders to protect their herd, pack, group whatever for those typed of animals. When it coems to solitary animals well, if there were alot of gay ones I would assume most of them would be close to extinct by now eh? It may not be wrong, but it is UNNATURAL!

Originally posted by jumpspace
Hi all,

Though I'd get some feedback on this:

With some governments over the world bringing in the "rights" of gay couples to allow then to adopt children, I was wondering what sort of law suit the governments are setting themselves up for?

My guess is that in years to come, children will be suing the governments because, for one reason or another, they feel duped by not having a real mum and dad.

Personally, I believe a child should be bought up by a mother and father - it provides a good balance of "energies" and teaching.

For those of you who say "it's all about love", I have one comment: to use this argument as one to spearhead a facility for gay adoption is an absolute pathetic argument; it's like saying "in some families both parents work and have less time for their kids and therefore we should allow gay adoption".

Cheers

JS

I KNEW I shouldn't have even clicked on this thread. Your post makes me sick. This world is LITTERED with children...yes LITTERED who would love to have someone to care for them and claim them. Heterosexuals, most of them, can have their own children. For those loving families that cannot procreate...I say the children of the world need loving care. If there were a shortage of children and if you had some huge focus group of children came forward testifying to how horrific their upbringing was because they had two moms or two dads..then there might be a basis for this. Since neither situation exists...this thread is just an exercise of spitting in the wind. Take care of your own children and if you've got some extra time and cash, adopt up some of those unwanted children to spare them the HORROR of having two loving gay parents. Otherwise...SHUT UP!

While gays should never be allowed to adopt children, especially of the same sex as the gays - perhaps allowing them to file for marriage licenses isn't a bad idea after all.

When and if the revolution comes, the people taking over will have access to the public marriage records to track those people down for rehabilitation. What do you think?

Maybe you did not look hard enough, as you have stated.

en.wikipedia.org...

Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms; even within the same species, researchers have drawn parallels between this and homosexuality, bisexuality, intersexuality and transgender behavior in humans. The presence of same-sex sexual behavior was not 'officially' observed on a large scale until recent times, possibly due to observational bias caused by social attitudes to same-sex sexual behavior. It appears to be widespread amongst birds, mammals and the apes. Some researchers believe it to have its origin in male social organization and social dominance, similar to the dominance traits shown in prison sexuality.

www.subversions.com...

There are plenty more to be found.

We are born from nature womb, so why do we prefer to segregate ourselves from its clasps ?

Deep

While gays should never be allowed to adopt children, especially of the same sex as the gays - perhaps allowing them to file for marriage licenses isn't a bad idea after all.

When and if the revolution comes, the people taking over will have access to the public marriage records to track those people down for rehabilitation. What do you think?

Your hubris seeps from your fingers quite eloquently. I find that offensive, though not a homosexual myself, I have many homosexual freinds and let me tell you, they are more ' normal ' than one would imagine.

Deep

Originally posted by Codemaster_01
While gays should never be allowed to adopt children, especially of the same sex as the gays - perhaps allowing them to file for marriage licenses isn't a bad idea after all.

When and if the revolution comes, the people taking over will have access to the public marriage records to track those people down for rehabilitation. What do you think?

I think you suck. Sorry...that's my opinion. I'm denying ignorance...so I'm denying you. You sound very much like marshall law advocate with your "track people down for rehabilitation".

Originally posted by jumpspace
OK everybody...

To make it simple for you, lets look at the basics shall we:

1) Children need loving parents
This is a given and neither here nor there in this debate, since a parent's ability to love is not determined by their sexual orientation.

2) Children need stability
By stability, I assume (based on your response to Garon) you are referring to a parent's adherence to one specific sexual orientation or the other.
I don't think your assertion that some gays are sexually wishy-washy (otherwise known as bi-sexual), can be considered evidence that homosexuals are unstable.
While there are many gay people who try and live a hetero lifestyle, due to social stigmas/expectations, that doesn't mean they are straight. When/if they do come out, they haven't suddenly become gay, they are just choosing not to pretend that they are straight anymore.

As for the guy, who you say changed from straight to bi to gay to straight again, he is simply bi-sexual, meaning he is attracted to both genders. Just because he fell in love with and married a woman, doesn't mean he's no longer attractted to men, it just means he has committed himself to one person, and is respecting that committment.

Children need the stability that comes from knowing that their parents, adoptive or biological, are going to be there for them, are satisfied with themselves and that they are safe, secure, and loved. In that respect homosexual families are no different than heterosexual families.

Compared with heterosexual fathers, gay fathers have been described to adhere to stricter disciplinary guidelines, to place greater emphasis on guidance and the development of cognitive skills, and to be more involved in their children�s activities. Overall, there are more similarities than differences in the parenting styles and attitudes of gay and non-gay fathers.

Regarding the belief that children raised by homosexuals will become homosexuals themselves, it is unfounded. There is a vast amount of empirical evidence to the contrary. A child's sexual orientation, as well as their perception of gender roles, is not affected by the orientation of their parents.

The gender identity of preadolescent children raised by lesbian mothers has been found consistently to be in line with their biologic sex. None of the more than 300 children studied to date have shown evidence of gender identity confusion, wished to be the other sex, or consistently engaged in cross-gender behavior. No differences have been found in the toy, game, activity, dress, or friendship preferences of boys or girls who had lesbian mothers, compared with those who had heterosexual mothers.

Bailey, J.M., Bobrow, D., Wolfe, M., & Mikach, S. (1995). Sexual orientation of adult sons of gay fathers. Developmental Psychology, 31, 124-129.

Reports the result of a study of 55 gay or bisexual men who had a total of 82 sons at least 17 years of age. The fathers were recruited through advertisements in gay publications. 89% percent of the fathers identified themselves as gay. The rest identified themselves as bisexual. More than 90% of the sons whose sexual orientation could be rated were heterosexual. The sexual orientation of the sons was not positively correlated with the amount of time the sons lived with their fathers. The authors conclude that the available evidence fails to provide empirical grounds for denying child custody to lesbian and gay parents because of concern about the effect on the child's sexual orientation.

3) Children need a balanced viewpoint of life.

It seems you are assuming that homosexual parents are unaware of their children's need to develop a well-rounded and balanced understanding of life. Evidence has shown that is not ordinarily the case.

Lesbian mothers strongly endorse child-centered attitudes and commitment to their maternal roles and have been shown to be more concerned with providing male role models for their children than are divorced heterosexual mothers. Lesbian and heterosexual mothers describe themselves similarly in marital and maternal interests, current lifestyles, and child-rearing practices. They report similar role conflicts, social support networks, and coping strategies.

Several studies comparing children who have a lesbian mother with children who have a heterosexual mother have failed to document any differences between such groups on personality measures, measures of peer group relationships, self-esteem, behavioral difficulties, academic success, or warmth and quality of family relationships.

Can we even add to the list maybe?

Sure, children need:
4). Parents who are happy in their relationship

5). Parents with high self-esteem

6). An environment free from conflict

Children in all family constellations have been described by parents and teachers to have more behavioral problems when parents report more personal distress and more dysfunctional parent-child interactions. In contrast, children are rated as better adjusted when their parents report greater relationship satisfaction, higher levels of love, and lower interparental conflict regardless of their parents� sexual orientation. Children apparently are more powerfully influenced by family processes and relationships than by family structure.

Here is a link to the APA's Empirical Studies on Lesbian and Gay Parenting:
www.apa.org...&gbib.html

My other source was the American Academy of Pediatrics' Technical Report: Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents
pediatrics.aappublications.org...

this is the most rediculous thing ive ever heard of. how obsurd and ignorant. pretty soon sex offenders who dont really know of themselves being sickos are just gonna label themselves as ''gay.'' come on people, why the hell wont they ever open their eyes.

and now they want to let them raise children. rediculous. just another contribution to your everyday child porn. sad world huh...

Originally posted by Codemaster_01
When and if the revolution comes, the people taking over will have access to the public marriage records to track those people down for rehabilitation. What do you think?

Didn't the X-Men movies teach you anything? Oh ya! And the Nazis?

This is awful! That government is against its community, which lets gays adopt children! Just imagine: what will that poor child say at school, when others ask questions about the parents?

This whole thing has to be thought over many times, before anybody may execute such law.

As I posted earlier about going to church made me not straight, I was kind of bluffing, but I do not want to be in the same category as "straight Christians" who are so opposed to something like this. It makes me sick to the stomach that there are lost souls out there that would protest a person's right to do the righteous thing an adopt a needy child and make this a big deal, even worse there are many in the government with this view that homosexuals should not be allowed to adopt and have put measures to make their wish to adopt more difficult than it already is. It is so sad that some are so lost in their dogma of a religion that this is even an issue.

I'm not even going to get involved in this mess because its just ridiculous.

I'm just going to break it down for ya...

Loving family (regardless of sexual preference) GOOD
Bigotry based on religion and junk science BAD

You should look at the child's viewpoint, too. What will he say when the classmates ask about his parents? Well... my mom is Tom, my dad is Andrew.

How gruesome ruined childhood he is looking into?! ..and we didn't even talk about other things. Will he be ever able to look into the eyes of girls? ..and so on, etc

I think, this whole thing is abnormal, and it has gone way too far.

Originally posted by Istvan
How gruesome ruined childhood he is looking into?! ..and we didn't even talk about other things. Will he be ever able to look into the eyes of girls? ..and so on, etc

Children don't care as long as they are loved and cared for by someone. Hate, prejudice, racism, etc. are learned not genetically inherent. All I can say is try thinking for yourself for a change as oppose to just going along with all the nonsense you have learned.