Gays adopting and childrens rights

Hi all,

Though I'd get some feedback on this:

With some governments over the world bringing in the "rights" of gay couples to allow then to adopt children, I was wondering what sort of law suit the governments are setting themselves up for?

My guess is that in years to come, children will be suing the governments because, for one reason or another, they feel duped by not having a real mum and dad.

Personally, I believe a child should be bought up by a mother and father - it provides a good balance of "energies" and teaching.

For those of you who say "it's all about love", I have one comment: to use this argument as one to spearhead a facility for gay adoption is an absolute pathetic argument; it's like saying "in some families both parents work and have less time for their kids and therefore we should allow gay adoption".

Cheers

JS

No we should allow the child to never be adopted because there aren't enough "suitable" families for all the children. Let the kid grow up in foster homes, never knowing family, never knowing what it feels like to have stability. There are so many other things that could enrich the childs life from being adopted by gay couples. Its just funny how people target who the parent sleeps with to determine if he/she is/will be a good parent.

to me, it would be a crime allowing a gay couple to adopt a child. The child, growing up in a gay environment, will only breed more gays.

I really don't see any problem with a gay couple adopting a child. Nobody seems to have a problem with single people adopting kids. Neither do I see any outcry to prevent child abusers from having more kids, or for gay people to have children through insemination or surrogacy? It really does come down to the love factor - the ability to have children does not presuppose a love for the child. The wish to adopt a child generally does imply that the people concerned (straight or gay) have love to give the child.

[edit on 27-7-2004 by maynardsthirdeye]

Why give homosexuals a chance to suffer the little children when there are so many perfectly fine sick and sadistic heterosexual couples that can raise a child. I wish that ignorance was painful.

Originally posted by katt06
to me, it would be a crime allowing a gay couple to adopt a child. The child, growing up in a gay environment, will only breed more gays.

Wow thats Ignorant. Studies have shown that children growing up in gay families are no more less likely to become gay themselves.

I've known gay couples who raised perfectly ordinary kids and heterosexual couples (including very religious ones) who turned out gay kids. You can see this in the animal world as well (yes, a certain percentage of animals are also homosexual... and nobody "made" them that way) where homosexual couples will raise completely heterosexual offspring.

The issue is "are the kids being raised well" and not "are the parents of some orientation that we approve of?" There are more HETEROSEXUAL parents and stepparents who abuse/rape/molest kids than there are homosexuals who do so.

Its so easy to be prejudiced when you aren't the one being discriminated against. I am not gay but I don't see any problem with gay people raising an adopted child with love into a normal healthy human adult.

No matter how often ignorant people say it, being gay will never be contagious.

OOPS double post sorry.

[edit on 27-7-2004 by Mynaeris]

Originally posted by katt06
to me, it would be a crime allowing a gay couple to adopt a child. The child, growing up in a gay environment, will only breed more gays.

In some peoples eyes, it'd be a crime to allow you to procreate or adopt and spread your discrimnations and hate. It'll only breed more of it, using the same logic.

I think the government should get with the program, realize the abundance of gays and allow them the same freedoms as say a "straight" person.

These same "gays" are paying taxes, holding down jobs, etc...

My sister is in a lesbian relationship. She has been for two years. She was married, and "straight" for 11 years prior this relationship. All I can say she is more at home with herself in this relationship than she was in her other relationship.

Was she always "gay"? No, not in my opinion. I'm heterosexual, so I can't answer that one. I can't relate. She dated only men and thought lesbian relationships were "gross". She has a son. Was my nephew more likely to become a homosexual prior to her "switch" or is he more threatened now that she is actively "lesbian"?

I don't have the answer to that one. This is one of those "are you born gay or do you become gay" questions.

Personally, what two adults do in the privacy of their bedroom shouldn't be the basis of labeling them in the way they assume responsibility in their daily life, unless it seriously impacts how they handle themselves. Alot of "straight" people have serious issues. A child has no buisiness being privy to what an adult does in their bedroom, straight or homosexual.


Once the government is able to accept homosexuality, it will be easier for issues like these to be resolved.



[edit on 27-7-2004 by mako0956]

Interesting...

Darktalon:

"Its just funny how people target who the parent sleeps with to determine if he/she is/will be a good parent."

Some people are into beastiality...they choose to sleep with animals - it is a choice they make. They make their choice and that's fine but should these people be given the same rights as gay people? Should they be able to adopt? Should they be allowed to marry an animal? You say NO...that's sick! Well, wasn't being gay considered sick at one point...before it was "supposedly accepted" by society? Should society's acceptance of something mean that it's OK? What about the romans and the christians? Society accepted that and now we look back and see it was VERY WRONG.

katt06:

This applies when gay couples "push" their beliefs onto their children (and it DOES happen)...much like a KKK based family "pushing" their beliefs onto their children.

Mynaeris:

Yes, of course it comes down to love but that doesn't mean we should automatically allow gay couples to adopt because they're "loving". Same with single parents that are "loving".

A child is made in a natural state from a male and a female who, naturally, love their offsping (apart from the minority who shouldn't even be allowed to have children). This is how nature works and this is what we should be basing adoption on - the family unit - a heterosexual couple who have the capability to "love". It's the natural order of life.

Jonna:

Yes, I agree, some people shouldn't be allowed to have children. It's a shame that we can't "turn off" the ability and when you are ready to have children then that ability is "turned on" (if you are suitable parents of course).

FredT:

A link would be good. Cheers.

Byrd:

"I've known gay couples who raised perfectly ordinary kids and heterosexual couples (including very religious ones) who turned out gay kids."

So? In the case of gay parents bringing up a hetero child; maybe the child went hetero 'cause he/she saw the pain that the parents went through regarding discrimination, "the natural order" etc. Likewise, maybe the child of the hetero couple turned gay because the parents "pushed" religion too hard and the child becoming gay was the most extreme measure the child could take regarding the "shock" factor.

Let's not compare ourselves to the animal world - we are animals, yes, but we have a better understanding of the "natural order" of life.

You said:

"The issue is 'are the kids being raised well' and not 'are the parents of some orientation that we approve of?'

Once again, we shouldn't be using this as a reason to allow gay adoption. Read the comment above re beastilaity.

"There are more HETEROSEXUAL parents and stepparents who abuse/rape/molest kids than there are homosexuals who do so"

Are you talking numbers or percentage wise? Link?

Mynaeris:

"No matter how often ignorant people say it, being gay will never be contagious" No? What about the high percentage of gays in fashion and hair-dressing? I know of a gentleman who's son went into hair-dressing. He started "talking funny" and was even mimicking his "role models" body language (you know what I mean). On another note, why is it that some (not all) male gays adopt a "girly voice" - this isn't natural, it is learnt. I even remember seing a boy (13) on TV saying that he was gay as far as he could remember...and he had a VERY girly "gay" voice. Further investigation found that his mother/father were not good parents and he used to hang out with another group of people when he was very young - a group of transvestites/gays.

parrhesia:

Agreed. As said above, it's a shame be aren't born with our :child making" abilities turned off and when a "bonding" of two people happens naturally then we "turn on" our child making abilities. I suppose we do have this in the form of sex as sex used to for creating babies (and yes, please as well)...however now with contraception etc etc it's now looked at more of a pleasure thing that a "survival" thing.

mako0956:

What your sister experienced is common for gay people - they simply cannot "handle" the opposite sex - whether it be multiple marriage breakdows or whatever. I have a number of gay friends and I asked one; "how can you be gay when there are perfectly beautiful women out there?" He answered by saying "they're too hard"...

You also said:

"Personally, what two adults do in the privacy of their bedroom shouldn't be the basis of labeling them in the way they assume responsibility in their daily life, unless it seriously impacts how they handle themselves."

I agree, it was kept in the bedroom - it's the gays that made it public by wanting "equal rights".

As far as I'm concerned, if you make a CHOICE regarding your sexuality then you accept what comes along with that choice. What the gays are doing now is trying to change the laws so that "society" is forced to accept them and as such, they can accept themselves.

As an example, I used to enjoy the program Ellen - a good laugh. Personally, I didn't care whether she was a lesbian or whatever - I simply enjoyed the show for what it was. Then she stood up and used her show to state she was gay...well, I stopped watching the program.

I accept people for who they are. If they tell me they are gay later on then that's fine. If they tell me that I should accept them because they're gay, well...they're no longer a friend.

Keep it in the bedroom by all means...but that comes to another point - what happens when the child "inadvertently" walks in on his/her gay parents? Bit of a mind f#$%? Yes, I do think so.

Cheers

JS

How you can turn my statement about two consentual adualts, into beastiality really shows your level of intellegance. Low.

No you can't push your sexual orientation(sp?) onto someone else. You can push sexual tolerance(the feeling of equality even though you have a different sexual preferance). Are you saying if a straight person to pushed enough, they can/will become gay? Or that straight people decide to become gay?

It's called the seperation of church and state. There is no logical reason, and no legal reason the government should care, or enforce anything reguarding sexual relationships. It is clearly a religious driven agenda.

So because one person is able to live they way they were created, straight, they get the privilage of adopting children, or getting married? But a person who is created, homosexual, and doesn't conform to your idea of a "good" parent should be allowed those rights? Even if both sets of people have the same morals, respect and respondibility?

Darktalon: Ever get the feeling that no matter what you say some people will cling to their petty beliefs and stereotypes. I was going to respond and then after hearing aout how becoming a hairdresser made some kid a homosexual. I laughed and moved on. Frightened people cling to stereotypes in order that they can deal with the world.

Personally Intollerance makes me sick. Homosexuals are just like everybody else, except they love another person of their same sex. They cant help it, it's just something that happens, you don't become gay, your always gay or your never gay, its just how it works. It's even in Nature, we see gay animals all the time. And you know what, a gay couple could raise a child as well if not better then any straight couple. Because when it comes down to it, raising a child is all about loving the child, and teaching him/her values, right and wrong, and tolerance of others.

As for the person who compared beastiliaty, its not the same. We are talking about someone who is forcing himself upon dead or alive animals. It's not a relationship between two individuals, its just forced sexual gratification upon an animal. Theres nothing to be accepted about it, and in no way is something that can be compared to consensual intercource between two human beings.

As far as I'm concerned, if you make a CHOICE regarding your sexuality then you accept what comes along with that choice. What the gays are doing now is trying to change the laws so that "society" is forced to accept them and as such, they can accept themselves.

Oh you mean like the Women's right movement? or the equal rights movements?

Religion forced them out, they do have a right for society to accept them(as do everyone else), they are a part of society.

Choice? So you have it in you to be gay? You could change if you wanted to? You can sit there thinking about going down on another guy, and get excited?

Didn't think so.

Not a choice, its creation. Its funny how babies can be born with mixed genitals, or even both genitals. So how far fetched is it that some people are born with different orientation?

Keep it in the bedroom by all means...but that comes to another point - what happens when the child "inadvertently" walks in on his/her gay parents? Bit of a mind f#$%? Yes, I do think so.

Umm I walked in on my straight parents, and guess what? It was a mind f#$%. Assinine arguement.

So for it seems this thread is more about respecting the right of gay couples to adopt and less about the child and what he or she will have to deal with growing up. As an adopted person myself who has turned out to be, IMO, a decent human being, I can only say that my adoption has always been a difficult thing for me to accept, and it has left me confused, sad and frustrated many times in my life. All of these negative feelings manifest as a kind of pressure that is hard to put into words, but it is sometimes a distinctive feeling of just not belonging or fitting in anywhere. I can say I had a happy childhood, and I am very grateful for that, but I cannot deny my internal feelings either. I believe that being raised by a gay couple would have added yet another layer to an already difficult psychological burden.

Also I would like to mention that I am not anti-gay, and I believe that gay people should be allowed legal protections with respect to decision-making power over each other such as when one partner is disabled, but with respect to raising children, it's not just the gay couple's rights at stake, it's the childs too.

Darktalon:

You stated: "...who the parent sleeps with.."

This is a PERSONAL choice on an individual basis, thus the comparison to beasiality. You can't change your mind now and say "between two consenting adults".

You stated:

"No you can't push your sexual orientation(sp?) onto someone else" No? I saw a documentry about two lesbian women who encouraged their daughter to experiment with women as well as men.

You stated:

"Are you saying if a straight person to pushed enough, they can/will become gay?"

Maybe. It depends on how the child wants to revolt against the parent/s.

You stated:

"So because one person is able to live they way they were created, straight, they get the privilage of adopting children, or getting married?"

Adoption was meant for heterosexual couples who could't have babies naturally, not for homosexual couples who, because of their decision are unable to have babies naurally. Marriage was created for man/women, not man/man or woman/woman.

If there was adam/adam or eve/eve, we would not exist today.

You said:

"Even if both sets of people have the same morals"

If you think it's OK morally to insert something somewhere that is designed naturally to excrete something else then I'm afraid to say it that you are wrong. Whether it's hetero or gay anal fantasies, it'n not normal and if you say it is then, well...I have no comment : )

You said:

"Oh you mean like the Women's right movement? or the equal rights movements?"

What has womens rights got to do with sexual choice? Womens rights started with the sufrogets (sp?) regarding votes. regarding equal rights - yes, I believe people should be given equal rights but you also have to balance this with common sense.

You say:

"how far fetched is it that some people are born with different orientation?"

It's funny isn't it. I remember years ago the gay lobby groups were arguing that you were not born gay. Are they now saying that you are born gay?

You say:

"Umm I walked in on my straight parents"

Yeah, ditto...ditto re the mind f%$# as well. However I think it would be "compounded" if you walked in on someone doing something that aint natural.

Mynaeris:

You stated:

"after hearing aout how becoming a hairdresser made some kid a homosexual. I laughed and moved on"

Well, you didn't hear the story from the person (father) I spoke to so I expect that sort of reaction. BTW, the father pulled his son from hair-dressing and he eventually lost all the "gay" trademarks.

Mynaeris/Darktalon:

It's good to see you both resort to personal attacks:

"...shows your level of intellegance. Low..."
"...some people will cling to their petty beliefs..."

Most people, when put in a situation they don't know how to handle normally respond with personal attacks - it's human nature (whether you're gay or not : )

Another questin for you:

Why do some gay males adopt the "girlie" voice? If being gay is natural then shouldn't a child, one they can talk, start talking this way? LOL...I think not. Becoming gay is a matter of CHOICE based on your "environment"...some make that choice because they "feel" they get on better with the opposite sex and there are many other reasons as well.

WolfofWar:

"Homosexuals are just like everybody else, except they love another person of their same sex. They cant help it, it's just something that happens"

Agree 100%

You said:

"raising a child is all about loving the child, and teaching him/her values, right and wrong, and tolerance of others"

Agree as well, however how can you teach a child "right and wrong" or "values" when you, yourself (not personally you), can't even figure out the basics of life.

PathTreker:

I agree, sorry for that direction but, due to peoples "soap boxes" this is the way it normally goes.

I assume you love your adopting parents and I sympathise regarding your natural parents. There are many possible reasons for that; it's highly possible that you were created with love and just that maybe your natural parents may have wanted a better life for you; I'm sure they did it in YOUR best interest...and that's what counts : )

You said:

"Also I would like to mention that I am not anti-gay, and I believe that gay people should be allowed legal protections with respect to decision-making power over each other such as when one partner is disabled, but with respect to raising children, it's not just the gay couple's rights at stake, it's the childs too."

Agreed 100%.

Cheers

JS

[edit on 27-7-2004 by jumpspace]

[edit on 27-7-2004 by jumpspace]

Jumpspace how about backing up any of your assertions with facts (and possibly links to these facts at least with legitimate references) rather than your rather whimsical personal anecdotes.