Consciousness is a Quantum Entity

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by sirnex

 

Stop eating, take out your heart, take out your brain, prove to me you wouldn't cease to function after that.

You might be interested to read David Chalmer's philosophical zombie argument in relation to the theroy of consciousness where he does, in effect, address your hypothetical position.

Philosophical zombie

I don't feel it answered my question at all.

If I stop eating, my body dies.
If I remove my heart, my body dies.
If I remove my brain, my body dies.

I've yet to see any verified tangible evidence that I continue to exist as me after bodily death.

Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by sirnex

 

Stop eating, take out your heart, take out your brain, prove to me you wouldn't cease to function after that.

You might be interested to read David Chalmer's philosophical zombie argument in relation to the theroy of consciousness where he does, in effect, address your hypothetical position.

Philosophical zombie

I don't feel it answered my question at all.

If I stop eating, my body dies.
If I remove my heart, my body dies.
If I remove my brain, my body dies.

I've yet to see any verified tangible evidence that I continue to exist as me after bodily death.

And you probably wont until this body dies, but given your position....... "I cant see it so it doesn't exist" you will only remember until your next incarnation, when you will forget it all over again. Progression is letting go of the restrictions and boundaries placed on your thinking by our society, its just like people raving on about the "Big Bang" THEORY, it has all but been debunked as a completely unobtainable theory that lacks any means of proving anything about creation, yet people still quote it as "law" because they can not think beyond the boundaries and refuse to accept that there is more to this universe than the physical.

reply to post by CouncilOfNine

And you probably wont until this body dies, but given your position....... "I cant see it so it doesn't exist"

Why would I believe in something I can't see in any fashion? Dinosaurs certainly don't exist anymore, I can't see them, so I have no reason to believe they exist today. There are many many many many thing's that you and I both agree that don't exist despite never have seen them. Unless you do believe dinosaurs exist today?

you will only remember until your next incarnation, when you will forget it all over again.

That makes no sense to me. What would be the point if past lessons learned are forgotten? What exactly is the point of relearning everything?

Progression is letting go of the restrictions and boundaries placed on your thinking by our society,

I personally feel progression involves tangible discoveries. Our technology has progressed and continues to progress significantly due to materialist science. Idealist and metaphysical pseudo-science hasn't progressed our understanding one bit, hasn't provided new technologies, hasn't benefited mankind other than through dvd and books sales.

its just like people raving on about the "Big Bang" THEORY, it has all but been debunked as a completely unobtainable theory that lacks any means of proving anything about creation, yet people still quote it as "law" because they can not think beyond the boundaries and refuse to accept that there is more to this universe than the physical.

I agree with you there, I personally don't subscribe to the big bang theory due to recent observations that to me bring that account of how the universe began in question. Yet what you just said makes me wonder, what if the universe was born from the anal drippings of a cosmic unicorn? We can't prove or disprove it, so it's just as probable and true as the claims you make yourself. If I am to take your unsubstantiated claims with any seriousness, then you should equally entertain the though that perhaps reality was really created from the anal drippings of a cosmic unicorn. Of course, that would imply that we're not really that special... being born from crap and all without any purpose.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by CouncilOfNine

 

Why would I believe in something I can't see in any fashion? (quote sinex)

I don't believe in any 'thing', all things are mirages pointing us back to the source.

you will only remember until your next incarnation, when you will forget it all over again.

That makes no sense to me. What would be the point if past lessons learned are forgotten? What exactly is the point of relearning everything? (quote sinex)

It makes complete sense. God is all there is, or should i say consciousness is what there is.
However it wants to have experience and the only way a whole thing can experience itself is by looking in the mirror. The mirror makes it look like it is two or more. So it has to split itself, so it can experience.
It is the game of hide and seek. God hides himself from himself and then forgets on purpose and then looks to find himself. When he remembers himself he is liberated from the world of 'things', he sees it has always all been one thing. There are no 'things' as such.
It is all god.

Progression is letting go of the restrictions and boundaries placed on your thinking by our society,

I personally feel progression involves tangible discoveries. Our technology has progressed and continues to progress significantly due to materialist science. Idealist and metaphysical pseudo-science hasn't progressed our understanding one bit, hasn't provided new technologies, hasn't benefited mankind other than through dvd and books sales. (quote sinex)

Our technologies are all part and parcel of god looking for himself. He looks at the 'things' of the world in hope of finding himself.
So the scientists search is also in hope of finding god.
The ultimate truth is there is nothing but god.

The big bang did not happen billions of years ago. This 'now experience' is the big bang banging right now. Prior to this instant there was nothing. You looking at the apparent world is what makes the bang, the bang produces the vision of what is seen.
Conscious observer + waves of probability(nothing)=this experience.

edit on 23-4-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

reply to post by sirnex

Why would I believe in something I can't see in any fashion? Dinosaurs certainly don't exist anymore, I can't see them, so I have no reason to believe they exist today. There are many many many many thing's that you and I both agree that don't exist despite never have seen them. Unless you do believe dinosaurs exist today?

This is most definitely a leap of faith, one that I have decided is worthy, considering the research I have done into this area. Some things I have discovered delve into information that is very very believable and through further research I have found that the Illuminati also believe these very thing with incredible conviction.
I suspect that the highest of the order have read the original parchments from the Ark of the Covenant.

That makes no sense to me. What would be the point if past lessons learned are forgotten? What exactly is the point of relearning everything?

It does if you understand how things work. This planet at this time is of 3rd density and is purely a time of choice, you must progress past selfishness, manipulation, etc, (this is the negative path) into love compassion, thoughtfulness, kindness, this is where your progression starts onto the positive path.

We are in a transformation into 4th density, this is the density of love, if you do not show at least 51% of service to others (positive path) or 95% service to self (negative path) then when you die you will incarnate into a new 3rd density body. This is also the density of forgetting or veiled from your previous incarnations, directly for the purpose of making an unconscious decision to choose a path.
As the planetary surface is also changing to 4th density a third density body can not survive here, so you will incarnate to another 3rd density planet.

This is only a very condensed version and there is much much more to the picture.

I personally feel progression involves tangible discoveries. Our technology has progressed and continues to progress significantly due to materialist science. Idealist and metaphysical pseudo-science hasn't progressed our understanding one bit, hasn't provided new technologies, hasn't benefited mankind other than through dvd and books sales.

This is where we disagree, did you know that ALL our present technology is reverse engineered from spacecraft recovered from Roswell? and even though you think we are progressing we are not.
The technology we currently know about is minuscule compared to what the US government has in their possession. They give certain items to private enterprise to see what they can make from it, this includes silicon chip technology.

I agree with you there, I personally don't subscribe to the big bang theory due to recent observations that to me bring that account of how the universe began in question. Yet what you just said makes me wonder, what if the universe was born from the anal drippings of a cosmic unicorn? We can't prove or disprove it, so it's just as probable and true as the claims you make yourself. If I am to take your unsubstantiated claims with any seriousness, then you should equally entertain the though that perhaps reality was really created from the anal drippings of a cosmic unicorn. Of course, that would imply that we're not really that special... being born from crap and all without any purpose.

Im sure what I posted has much more relevance than the theory of a universe made from unicorn anal drippings.
I can not help you past this point except to ask you to read it a few times and look into Dewey Larsons work as it will give you much insight into the universe from an astrophysicists point of view.

reply to post by sirnex

That makes no sense to me. What would be the point if past lessons learned are forgotten? What exactly is the point of relearning everything?

While it may seem as though everything from the past lives is forgotten, we are actually born with tendencies, likes and dislikes, which influence our choices in this life. In a past life, we may have learned the lesson not to steal from another, and in this life we are not tempted to steal even in situations where others of generally good morals may be tempted.

In addition, if we could remember our past lives in full detail, we would find it very difficult to make all the choices with which we are faced in the course of our lifetime. For example, who could feel enthusiastic about marrying a prospective partner who we know was our child in a previous life? Just image what your life would have been like if you had your current awareness and knowledge right from the time you were a small child. Full recollection of past lives would be like living life all over again hundreds, or even thousands of times. The mental burden would be too great. The veil of forgetfulness is really a blessing.

reply to post by mysticnoon


A very good point, it is all a part of our evolution as an infinite entity, or an apprentice co-creator if you will.
We just keep coming back until we get it right, then once we grasp that the universe literally revolves around love as a pure vibration we get the chance to ascend where we then remember our past lives.

Originally posted by VonDoomen
reply to post by sirnex

 

Sirnex, thought you may enjoy browsing this!
The emergence of the physical world from information processing
Link


Pretty interesting read, regardless what side of the fence you sit on!

in relation with that, as I told in another thread
( it's a bit long but ... ) :

and if it all was just a program - simulation ???


As I said in another thread I think maybe we live our virtual reality within a kind of big flight simulator, with a program running and created by ourselves in a higher dimension ( you believe in ghosts ? well they " live " in other dimensions, on other levels of reality, other levels of ENERGY, on other timelines ( if time there still exists in the same way down here … ) .
Our consciousness or soul ( or what you may call it ) lives on earth and at the same time on a higher plane of existence and here on earth we just have to learn and live lots of experiences.

So, in that higher level of consciousness, in that parallel universe where we are at home ( in heaven ? ) we have a kind of super computer capable of creating real looking surroundings within a simulator, real looking scenarios, even giving the illusion of MATTER and MASS, and the program we choose is creating other people around us, behaving in interconnection with ourselves, in 4D dimensions with time evolution … something like a game of WOW …..

We have the feelings of matter around us, but in fact it is just all simulation, it is all just energy concentration
( look at it like the repulsion of magnets : you cannot push them together N/N or S/S and doesn't that feel like a "physical" barreer ? like if you put it against a wall ??? there is repulsion so that feels like being matter no ? ).
We have all those people around us, our parents, our friends, all virtual, all are just holograms created by that super computer life simulator ... and the program is encoding our reactions, our behaviour, our love or hate against them.
The lessons we have to learn are dependant of what we became in a precedent game, in another life …
( so reincarnation is just another game we have to or want to start with another program to learn more and better what we have to learn ).
Do never forget we have our soul/consciousness being/living in a higher dimension, a dimension we cannot reach/remember again once we are/live in the game in this virtual earth/world, the world where our body acts.
Do not forget computers already can create virtual life, so who knows what is possible in other dimensions.
So, our lives are just virtual ones, we are ALL just virtual bodies, myself included, the illusion of matter and mass is created by the computer/life simulator with holograms that feel like real matter and the program is running with our own programming.
We live in virtual relationships with others around, but we think it is all real.
Kind of Matrix.
When we die, the program stops, we go back to afterlife, to our higher consciousness and see how we did play the game and judge ourselves to see what more we have to learn in another new experience with that same machine aka life simulator but with surely another “ life/play “ program we can choose, be it in the year 2500 BC. or 1789 AC. or 2056 AC. for exemple.

Computer just creates what has to be for us to be lived thru.
Ever been in a flight simulator cockpit ? looks very very real you know !!
Now, the "computer" is of course not a material one ...
But like every computer and like every program running you can of course have bugs : that can explain the déjà vu experiences or the time swaps or the NDE experiences or whatever remembers us other lifes before the actual one, the people we think we know since ever etc etc
so yes, once in afterlife, on the other higher level of consciouness, we can go into the past again by programming a new life-game-experience in our past and therefore influence our new present that we will play again if necessary, we can go into the futur by programming a new experience and see what kind of consequences our actual behaviour will have in the futur and then go again to the present to change our lifestyle ......
life after life after life ... up there on the level of the "higher" consciousness there must also be a timeline, but not the same as in this world, up there we also have to make a evolution, a transition to other higher consciousness levels, always higher ! but from up there we can re-program our earthly lifes and overview/replay past, present and future of our lifes on earth.
Difficult to explain, but once you can imagine this it looks very acceptable !!
Just all about learning to be human, just all about learning about infinite LOVE, just all about learning " for the knowing " because well otherwise eternal life would be very very tiresome !!!

So let's think deeper : if in this life ( in this experience ) you kill somebody, first of all it is only the body you kill of that person, not the soul of that person, then after death you will learn it is bad ( hopefully !!... ) and want to replay the game again and act differently by not killing that person ...... you will learn to be more kind or whatever. That person you killed was just a hologram of another soul sitting next to you in that other dimension/parallel world and programming the game with you ..... doesn't excuse the murder of course ...
Ghosts, ufo's, etc etc... are just " living " in other parallel dimensions where we go also after death.
Just different energy levels, just different " consciousness " levels ....
Stop. Game over.

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


Yes, the computer game analogy is very useful for explaining the different levels of consciousness, but I still have a fondness for the simplistic life as a play:

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;"

Here in this world, at the physical level of consciousness, we have identified ourselves so strongly with the parts that we play, that we have forgotten we are merely actors playing the parts. It is for this reason that we experience all the ups and downs of life, and it is not until we can participate in this world as an observer playing a role, that we can journey through this life in a state of equipoise and peace.

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


I am not sure I totally agree with what you have said, because I think this life is very real, I touch, feel, taste, love and to me this is reality.
However there are 7 densities to this creation all with an infinite number of dimensions, the higher you are in evolution the higher the density you reside in, this all has to do with your rate of vibration.

For instance someone residing in the 7th density would think that we do indeed live in an illusion, because they would consist of pure energy or light, this is because their vibratory rate is much much denser than ours and they have no need for a physical vehicle.

Our spirit which is our real self is part of this or another planet and has been since its conception, in other words we evolve with the planet. There is a basic blueprint if you will of our being, but the rest is purely up to evolution using whatever materials are available to the planet.

For instance we have a predisposition to be bipedal and have an opposable thumb. This was intended so that we would be able to be tool makers and not use our minds to create the things we need, like other races before us. This was a design to hold us back in the evolution of our spirit so the creator would have a different experience. Unfortunately tool making also unintentionally led to our predisposition for war.

I understand what you are saying about our higher self.

Because time as WE know it is simultaneous between densities, our higher self who actually resides in the mid 6th density, guides us within the boundaries of free will through our time on the lower planes.
We start from pure energy and are trained if you will to have the intelligence and the love of a creator, we are in actual fact apprentice creators, or creators in the making. This is also how the one infinite creator experiences itself through us; the one infinite creator in the form of pure energy is in everything throughout the entire creation, and is forever seeking new experiences using us for this purpose.

The whole process from our first creation until we return back to creation can take tens of billions of our years, as we evolve through the densities 1 though 7.

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by Sunlionspirit

 

Yes, the computer game analogy is very useful for explaining the different levels of consciousness, but I still have a fondness for the simplistic life as a play:

"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;"

Here in this world, at the physical level of consciousness, we have identified ourselves so strongly with the parts that we play, that we have forgotten we are merely actors playing the parts. It is for this reason that we experience all the ups and downs of life, and it is not until we can participate in this world as an observer playing a role, that we can journey through this life in a state of equipoise and peace.

yes yes, we play that "game/lifegame" so strongly involved that we forget we are only here to experience and try to find solutions to the problems we get confronted with .. we forget the big lesson : do not do to another being what you do not want them to do to you ...
so, we get so very much attracted by the materialistic side of the game, by the gold and silver decorum and sparkling surroundings created by the simulator, that we forget about the deeper real values in that game .... we become greedy and forget about the fact it is a game to learn the real values of life = love, eternal love ...
so what ? we kill, steal, murder, insult, etc etc ... we go down into the game instead of going up, we become a slave of the game, we forget our higher consciousness and risk to get trapped into that virtual reality ....
lost spirits ... well yes, lost in this virtual game because no exit scenario .....
it makes sense, we here are ALL virtual but this doesn't mean that we do not exist !! it is only our body here in this game, the spirit is eternal and very real !!!!

reply to post by CouncilOfNine

I see it like you do, but this life here on earth is very real you know, it is virtual because matter does not exist, it is all energy and vibration, ok but very real because we live in it.
Here we live on a lower density, up there on a higher one, the 2 ( or more ? ... ) are connected and influence us but not on the conscious manner, but inconscious, we do not know about the influence, we do not know about our higher control of the game ....
we always have free will, we always can choose to do the good or the evil ..... the judgment comes afterwards on the higher level of consciousness ...
depending of the judgment of ourselves by ourselves and God, we haved to go back and live other experiences to learn ..... in another simulation, with other decorum/surroundings and other friends and family ....
until we understand it - IT = LOVE = GOD.
We are all ONE, we are all part of creation, part of God ... in fact we are all tentacles of God and his creation, all coming together in his being ..
God is playing ( in the good sense ! ) with his creation and why not ?? lol.

Originally posted by sirnex
Yet you would sit there and state that an advanced AI would not be conscious despite passing all consciousness tests, having experiences, acting upon those experience and claiming itself to be conscious.

Why?

I didn't say it wouldn't be conscious.

I said you can't know if it is.

You can't observe "having experiences".

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by sirnex
Yet you would sit there and state that an advanced AI would not be conscious despite passing all consciousness tests, having experiences, acting upon those experience and claiming itself to be conscious.

Why?

I didn't say it wouldn't be conscious.

I said you can't know if it is.

You can't observe "having experiences".

No, you said it doesn't mean it does, not that you can't know if it is.

So, we can't observe ourselves having experiences?

reply to post by CouncilOfNine

This is most definitely a leap of faith, one that I have decided is worthy, considering the research I have done into this area. Some things I have discovered delve into information that is very very believable and through further research I have found that the Illuminati also believe these very thing with incredible conviction.
I suspect that the highest of the order have read the original parchments from the Ark of the Covenant.

Well, considering the research I have done and the information I have learned, but with the addition of looking for proven verifiable studies, most I've been able to see is that there are a ton of book and dvd sales going on.

It does if you understand how things work. This planet at this time is of 3rd density and is purely a time of choice, you must progress past selfishness, manipulation, etc, (this is the negative path) into love compassion, thoughtfulness, kindness, this is where your progression starts onto the positive path.

Please post peer reviewed scientific sources.

This is where we disagree, did you know that ALL our present technology is reverse engineered from spacecraft recovered from Roswell?

Oh come on, that's a load of bullcrap! All of our technology is human made without help from ET beaming down crashed spaceships. Seriously...

and even though you think we are progressing we are not.
The technology we currently know about is minuscule compared to what the US government has in their possession. They give certain items to private enterprise to see what they can make from it, this includes silicon chip technology.

More complete crap.

Im sure what I posted has much more relevance than the theory of a universe made from unicorn anal drippings.

Think about it, it actually is pretty equal in plausibility. Both thoughts hold no evidence in favor of either. You could be right and I could equally be right. More than likely, we're both wrong.

I can not help you past this point except to ask you to read it a few times and look into Dewey Larsons work as it will give you much insight into the universe from an astrophysicists point of view.

I try not to buy books and dvd's. No need to financially support kooks.

reply to post by Sunlionspirit


I do understand what you are saying. This experience is for learning of lessons, this is in part what karma is for, to learn you must see the signs and make a decision. Using the prime catalyst of free will you need make a choice, what you decide will affect you either positively or negatively.
I have never been a religious person as such so I hesitate to use the word god as it implies that there is one being, when in actuality it is everything within the creation.......we are all one.

reply to post by sirnex

Well, considering the research I have done and the information I have learned, but with the addition of looking for proven verifiable studies, most I've been able to see is that there are a ton of book and dvd sales going on.

Looks like we might be reading different books. If you look for only proven SCIENTIFIC studies then you will not find anything of any value. Most scientists do not like to endorse or indeed study anything they cant work out in a maths equation, this is quite sad really because all it means is that they are very closed minded and living inside a box.
Apart from the fact they seem to think that their math is all there is, when in fact it is more than likely very incomplete in terms of the universe.
I don't buy a book until ive at least read some of it, most books can be read on line.

Please post peer reviewed scientific sources.

Please see above comments

Oh come on, that's a load of bullcrap! All of our technology is human made without help from ET beaming down crashed spaceships. Seriously...

Its becoming apparent to me that you do indeed live a sheltered life.
Please study this web site.

The Disclosure Project

And these documents

Briefing Documents

And watch this video



This is a very small portion of the reviewed and very real evidence

More complete crap.

Please refer to above information

I try not to buy books and dvd's. No need to financially support kooks.

This book was written by a respected Astrophysicist and has been endorsed by many scientists. It is available to read on line at the link below.

Universe Of Motion

Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by sirnex
Yet you would sit there and state that an advanced AI would not be conscious despite passing all consciousness tests, having experiences, acting upon those experience and claiming itself to be conscious.

Why?

I didn't say it wouldn't be conscious.

I said you can't know if it is.

You can't observe "having experiences".

No, you said it doesn't mean it does, not that you can't know if it is.

So, we can't observe ourselves having experiences?

That is the only thing we can observe.

So my point is that we can never know if any consciousness exists beyond our own.

reply to post by CouncilOfNine

Most scientists do not like to endorse or indeed study anything they cant work out in a maths equation, this is quite sad really because all it means is that they are very closed minded and living inside a box.

In all fairness, the scientists are only restricted by the scientific method as it currently exists. By adhering to the scientific method, they are simply practicing science. What is needed is a revolution in the scientific method itself which integrates inner and outer epistemologies, where the inner domain of experience is not disregarded as irrelevant to scientific observation. Quantum mechanics has already opened the door, and I think in time there will be a much greater integration than exists presently.

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by CouncilOfNine

 

Most scientists do not like to endorse or indeed study anything they cant work out in a maths equation, this is quite sad really because all it means is that they are very closed minded and living inside a box.

In all fairness, the scientists are only restricted by the scientific method as it currently exists. By adhering to the scientific method, they are simply practicing science. What is needed is a revolution in the scientific method itself which integrates inner and outer epistemologies, where the inner domain of experience is not disregarded as irrelevant to scientific observation. Quantum mechanics has already opened the door, and I think in time there will be a much greater integration than exists presently.

Taking personal experience as evidence or proof of anything requires one to accept every single deity (AS AN EXAMPLE) is real and exists and is the truth as per everyone who claims personal experience towards this validation. This is why science doesn't work on the honor system and just take peoples word for their claims. I don't care if you claim you have telekinetic powers. Prove you do. Let's set up a study in which there is no possible chance of you having any physical contact with the objects and then see if you can move them. (AGAIN AN EXAMPLE). Yet studies like this have been done and every claimant was discovered to be a hoax and false.

This is why science doesn't readily accept empty claims, because when science looks into it, they turn out to be bunk and false leading up to nothing else than dvd and book sales.