Consciousness is a Quantum Entity

reply to post by sirnex


The only thing you can say for sure is that you are having an experience, you are seeing black lines and squiggles on a screen, and maybe a feeling in your stomach, hearing sounds, hearing the words you are reading and other 'external' noises. You can not deny that. That is not an illusion. That is the most real thing there could be. All the other 'things' you can most definitely question.
The experience is real.
What is experience?
'Things' is not experience.
'Things' appear and disappear within experience.
'Things' are not real.

I can not prove you are conscious if you choose to deny it.
I however, know i am.
I can not, (and i would say the same of you,) deny that i am conscious.

The bible and other religous writings say this all the time.
Only the seer is real, but we don't know what that means though.
Jesus and Buddha were spreading the message of consciousness.
The word Christ means consciousness. It is not Jesus' surname.

reply to post by purplemer

the one thing you know to exist for sure,because you experience it is your consciousnes.

The one thing science canot prove to exist is Consciousnes.
how can you answer such a question with science. if science cannot prove consciousnes exists.

If science, with all it's available resources, scientists, technologies etc., can't prove consciousness exists, then how can I prove to myself I am conscious and not appear to have the illusion of consciousness?

The tough part is proving that you are anything but consciousness.

If someday we build a digital analog of the human brain and it passes all consciousness tests, would that not imply that consciousness is a hardwired phenomena? That it doesn't exist upon it's own?

I however, know i am.

How do you know you are? Because you react to internal/external stimuli? Are seasonal changes in climate conscious?

reply to post by sirnex


(If someday) we build a digital analog of the human brain and it passes all consciousness tests, would that not imply that consciousness is a hardwired phenomena? That it doesn't exist upon it's own?

Ifs, buts and maybes. If it were possible, no, it would not prove that consciousness comes from a brain. The brain is a device for accessing consciousness, and making a digital anolog of brain would would not prove anything.

So unless science says so it is not true.
You are no different than the bible bashers, believing others over and above your own experience.
Your own experience is consciousness.
You are not conscious if you believe.

When consciousness recognizes itself, becomes aware of itself this is called realization.
Conciousness is knowing.

The only choice you have in this life is to be conscious that you are conscious or not.
If you do not even know you are conscious you have made your choice.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
The problem with science is that it starts with a materialistic assumption. This assumption is not based on anything but their personal belief system but sadly it's the rule in much of science.

So every immaterial aspect of our reality is just a byproduct of matter. So things like consciousness, information, non locality all stem from the material. To many people this is just an absolute truth because it's something they believe in. They can never ask the question, did the immaterial aspects of our universe give rise to the material. This is a point that's just as valid as their materialist assumption but if you just ask the questiion and take an idealist point of view then you're just listening tp pseudoscience.

This is truly a sad state of affairs because there's no basis to make the assumption that everything has to emerge from the material. The evidence actually points to the contrary.

For instance, we know matter breaks down at Plancks Constant. Well, information doesn't. It just goes from Classical bits to qubits. So if there's no evidence that the material exists beyond Plancks Constant but there's evidence that the immaterial still exists, how can we assume that the immaterial aspects of reality emerged from the material?

This is how they came up with Parallel Universes. In order to explain the fine tuning of the universe and things like Superposition, they said there has to be a material universe for every probable state of matter. Again, this is just another way to push materialism without a shred of evidence.

You can easily say that superposition and probability inherent in quantum mechanics is evidence of the Conscious Universe instead of a bunch of material universes. These universes could just be informational constructs of the conscious mind of the universe.

We operate in the same manner as the Consciousness of the universe. Our Conscious and Unconscious decisions are governed by probability. Take the simplest thing. Where will you go to lunch? Burger King, Taco Bell or Subway? This is just Classical Consciousness doing the same thing as Quantum Consciousness just like a Classical bit and a qubit.

So there's more evidence that the immaterial exists on a quantum level and there's ZERO evidence that the material exists on a quantum level yet people still start with the assumption that everything had to emerge from the material.

edit on 10-4-2011 by Matrix Rising because: (no reason given)

Yes this quite offers quite a conundrum. On one hand I think it is necessary to conclude that the material proceeds from the immaterial the only method we have of validating things is via the material. This is to say the only thing that has a transportable use for us the sphere of matter. In a sense in order to understand consciousness we can only understand it via sense perception. Once you take sense perception or empirical consciousness away from the individual involved in trying to understand the world as a whole you then make it impossible to grasp anything real. It is not worth scientists time to stick their heads in the sky and ignore the empirical material which is of more importance. I think once we enter into the quantum sphere of consciousness we tend to lose all sense of certainty. This is because certainty depends on empirical consciousness for it to exist to the subject's mind. This does not mean we can prove that the empirical exist inherently or even prove an inherent position located outside of consciousness in a quantum universe via sense perception. It is either a positive or negative move to try to understand the world that supersedes the phenomenal because it is virtually impossible scientifically. This does not mean we can not have consciousness of this world that we have little certainty of empirically but just that our experience of the extraordinary tends to be something that is revealed to via divine revelation instead of through scientific means.

There are many problems we would have when trying to comprehend the quantum universe and probable material worlds. I think sense perception of an empirical reality and the certainty that we are possible conscious of what we believe we are conscious of indicates that there is possibility a quantum universe. This is to say that if any higher form of reality depended on our sense perception of empirical reality this would lead me to doubt the certainty of any material whatsoever. We run the risk of running around in circles and making nonsensical assumptions when we try to understand the quantum universe. I think it is quite a miracle that there is a material universe and this material universe is just a symptom of the quantum universe. Actually the quantum universe surrounds us all and influences our sense perception more then we would think. The problem with being able to include an Uncertainty in the context of scientific investigation is that it tends to lead to us doubting the scientific investigation itself. This would then lead to a contradiction between our sense perception and our empirical reality which would then make it useless at a certain point to try to understand the quantum universe in any other way then making the point of departure to understand anything at all the material universe. I think we can only conclude that quantum universe is something that all material universes depend on for their existence but then we can not prove or disprove this empirically. Instead this should remain merely a matter of intuition. Its a concept that can not be validated and if we try to validate it we run the risk of putting into question science itself.

I think that we can only indicate a hidden variable which produced all the material universes the thing is that our means of coming to understand this hidden variable is limited not necessarily by science itself but by the hidden variable itself which closes itself up in some sort of subatomic reality which gradually produces the material universe as through a mutation of sorts. The material universe is essentially growing or expanding or shrinking in correspondence to a cosmological constant of sorts. This cosmological constant is self producing this means it has always been there. How it has gotten there and how it is produced the material universes which correspond to it will probably be forever a mystery which science can only answer in part. I think science should remain within the boundaries that it has imposed on itself and only seek to expand in so far as it does itself good by expanding itself beyond its previous boundaries. The quantum universe is lost in the obscurity that hides itself but reveals itself fully in everything that is perceived or not perceived by science.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

The brain is a device for accessing consciousness

Then what is consciousness? In order to make such a claim, you must have some kind of verifiable answer upon which that conclusion was made.

Originally posted by sirnex
If science, with all it's available resources, scientists, technologies etc., can't prove consciousness exists, then how can I prove to myself I am conscious and not appear to have the illusion of consciousness?

Because consciousness is beyond science.

You ARE consciousness.

The fact that you feel and perceive is the proof of consciousness.

The "illusion of consciousness" is a contradiction. You must be consciousness to have an illusion.

reply to post by Jezus

The "illusion of consciousness" is a contradiction. You must be consciousness to have an illusion.

So a sufficiently advanced AI which passes all consciousness tests is conscious after all.
If it experiences, acts upon those experiences, claims it's conscious, acts in a conscious manner and we are unable to differentiate between programmed conscious and human conscious ...

reply to post by sirnex


I agree that we would never be able to know if it truly had consciousness or not.

However, this doesn't mean it does.

Originally posted by Jezus
reply to post by sirnex

 

I agree that we would never be able to know if it truly had consciousness or not.

However, this doesn't mean it does.

In which case, then this opens the possibility that we don't either.

You see what I'm saying yet?

Although this is not purely scientific, and it doesn't have to be because none of our science can fathom the reality, to the open minded it may explain a couple of things.



The first known thing in the creation is infinity. The infinity is creation.Infinity became aware. This was the next step

Awareness led to the focus of infinity into infinite energy. You have called this by various vibrational sound complexes, the most common to your ears being “Logos” or “Love.” The Creator is the focusing of infinity as an aware or conscious principle called by us as closely as we can create understanding/learning in your language, intelligent infinity.

The next step is still at this space/time nexus in your illusion achieving its progression as you may see it in your illusion. The next step is an infinite reaction to the creative principle following the Law of One in one of its primal distortions, freedom of will. Thus many, many dimensions, infinite in number, are possible. The energy moves from the intelligent infinity due first to the outpouring of randomised creative force, this then creating patterns which in holographic style appear as the entire creation no matter which direction or energy is explored. These patterns of energy begin then to regularise their own local, shall we say, rhythms and fields of energy, thus creating dimensions and universes. The physical, universes were not yet born.

The energies moved in increasingly intelligent patterns until the individualisation of various energies emanating from the creative principle of intelligent infinity became such as to be co-Creators. Thus the so-called physical matter began. The concept of light is instrumental in grasping this great leap of thought as this vibrational distortion of infinity is the building block of that which is known as matter, the light being intelligent and full of energy, thus being the first distortion of intelligent infinity which was called by the creative principle.

This light of love was made to have in its occurrences of being certain characteristics, among them the infinite whole paradoxically described by the straight line, as you would call it. This paradox is responsible for the shape of the various physical illusion entities you call solar systems, galaxies, and planets of revolving and tending towards the lenticular.The steps, are simultaneous and infinite.

The galaxy and all other things of material of which you are aware are products of individualised portions of intelligent infinity. As each exploration began, it, in turn, found its focus and became co-Creator. Using intelligent infinity each portion created an universe and allowing the rhythms of free choice to flow, playing with the infinite spectrum of possibilities, each individualised portion channeled the love/light into what you might call intelligent energy, thus creating the so-called Natural Laws of any particular universe.

Each universe, in turn, individualised to a focus becoming, in turn, co-Creator and allowing further diversity, thus creating further intelligent energies regularising or causing Natural Laws to appear in the vibrational patterns of what you would call a solar system. Thus, each solar system has its own, shall we say, local coordinate system of illusory Natural Laws. It shall be understood that any portion, no matter how small, of any density or illusory pattern contains, as in an holographic picture, the One Creator which is infinity. Thus all begins and ends in mystery.

The process is from the larger, in your illusion, to the smaller. Thus the co-Creator, individualising the galaxy, created energy patterns which then focused in multitudinous focuses of further conscious awareness of intelligent infinity. Thus, the solar system of which you experience inhabitation is of its own patterns, rhythms, and so-called natural laws which are unique to itself. However, the progression is from the galaxy spiralling energy to the solar spiralling energy, to the planetary spiralling energy, to the experiential circumstances of spiralling energy which begin the first density of awareness of consciousness of planetary entities.

Each step recapitulates intelligent infinity in its discovery of awareness. In a planetary environment all begins in what you would call chaos, energy undirected and random in its infinity. Slowly, in your terms of understanding, there forms a focus of self-awareness. Thus the Logos moves. Light comes to form the darkness, according to the co-Creator’s patterns and vibratory rhythms, so constructing a certain type of experience. This begins with first density which is the density of consciousness, the mineral and water life upon the planet learning from fire and wind the awareness of being. This is the first density.

The spiralling energy, which is the characteristic of what you call “light,” moves in a straight line spiral thus giving spirals an inevitable vector upwards to a more comprehensive beingness with regards to intelligent infinity. Thus, first dimensional beingness strives towards the second-density lessons of a type of awareness which includes growth rather than dissolution or random change.

Picture, if you will, the difference between first-vibrational mineral or water life and the lower second-density beings which begin to move about within and upon its being. This movement is the characteristic of second density, the striving towards light and growth.
All of the octave's of your densities would be clearly visible were not the fourth through the seventh freely choosing not to be visible.

The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.

reply to post by CouncilOfNine


The imagination and creativity of the human species is both amazing and perplexing at the same time. It just astonishes me how people can make up just about anything and believe it to be the truth. Even if the idea is utterly nonsensical and unrealistic, it's just amazing.

Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by Jezus
reply to post by sirnex

 

I agree that we would never be able to know if it truly had consciousness or not.

However, this doesn't mean it does.

In which case, then this opens the possibility that we don't either.

You see what I'm saying yet?

My original point was that you cannot prove any consciousness exists beyond your own.

However, I know I am consciousness.

reply to post by sirnex


First of all Its not made up and secondly, can you prove that it is wrong?

It is actually an account of creation from RA.

You need to expand your thinking, you still think that this life is all there is when in actuality it is the first step of the rest of your existence.
Our science is so far from knowing the truth it is incomprehendable, maybe if you start with Mr Larsons theories as he is the only scientist who has taken the initiative to think out of the box.

L&L

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by Jezus
reply to post by sirnex

 

I agree that we would never be able to know if it truly had consciousness or not.

However, this doesn't mean it does.

In which case, then this opens the possibility that we don't either.

You see what I'm saying yet?

My original point was that you cannot prove any consciousness exists beyond your own.

However, I know I am consciousness.

Yet you would sit there and state that an advanced AI would not be conscious despite passing all consciousness tests, having experiences, acting upon those experience and claiming itself to be conscious.

Why?

reply to post by sirnex


Because if you take the battery and microchip out the robot will cease to operate. Humans function through organic means whereas robots use artificial means. Even leaving those parts in would be molding robots to think and act in the way humans do.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by sirnex

 

Because if you take the battery and microchip out the robot will cease to operate. Humans function through organic means whereas robots use artificial means. Even leaving those parts in would be molding robots to think and act in the way humans do.

edit on 22/4/2011 by Dark Ghost because: spelling

Stop eating, take out your heart, take out your brain, prove to me you wouldn't cease to function after that.

reply to post by sirnex

Stop eating, take out your heart, take out your brain, prove to me you wouldn't cease to function after that.

You might be interested to read David Chalmer's philosophical zombie argument in relation to the theroy of consciousness where he does, in effect, address your hypothetical position.

Philosophical zombie

reply to post by Dark Ghost


Good points, another thing is Death doesn't make any sense in the context of materialism. If we're the sum of our parts we should be able to dig up a human body that died of a heart attack a month earlier. Give him a new heart and began to get blood flowing back through the body and he should come back to life.

If we're just the sum of our parts and there's nothing external that makes us "alive" then artificial intelligence should be easy to obtain and death should be like the common cold. We should be able to put humpty dumpty back together again if we're just the sum of our parts.

reply to post by Matrix Rising

Because we are a mind/body/spirit complex the body can not survive without the spirit, all our knowledge from this and previous lives stay with the spirit, so reanimation would be futile.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by Dark Ghost

 

Good points, another thing is Death doesn't make any sense in the context of materialism. If we're the sum of our parts we should be able to dig up a human body that died of a heart attack a month earlier. Give him a new heart and began to get blood flowing back through the body and he should come back to life.

If we're just the sum of our parts and there's nothing external that makes us "alive" then artificial intelligence should be easy to obtain and death should be like the common cold. We should be able to put humpty dumpty back together again if we're just the sum of our parts.

Right... Maybe if you could somehow stop a buried body from decaying in the ground. Good luck with that.