Anti-Masons...What if?

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by 051r15

 

You're mixing secrecy with privacy. In your opinion secrecy implies deceit, but everyone holds some kind secret or private information. Also see:

Proverbs 11:13 - A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter.

Proverbs 12:23 - A prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself, but the heart of fools blurts out folly

No, I'm not. Personal "secrets" are not the same as secretive conspiracy, especially among wealthy politicians and financial interests. But, I do admire your effort and respect your comparison. Is the opposite of truthful not deception? Therefore, a person who is secretive may have a secret, but a group of people who conspire in secret are more than just secretive, they are deceptive --unless their secret be revealed, and thus the truth is known. An individual can be deceptive by holding a secret, but of the two, which has the potential to be more damaging? Let's say that a man is homosexual, but he doesn't wish others to know, so he remains silent about his secret. At this point his deception is not harming anyone else, and it is perfectly within his right to remain secretive. Let's say this same man conspires with a dozen other men in secret to blackmail a judge, who also has secrets of his own, in order to gain his influence. Which of the two scenarios is more damaging?

Originally posted by KSigMason
Plus Masons are still citizens and entitled to privacy. The Grand Lodge is not obligated to give a list to anyone as we are a private organization.

As individual citizens, yes. As an organization with questionable goals and aspirations, I am uncertain.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Plus most who seen these lists would use them for cruel intentions such as the harassment of the members.

What is there to hide? If one is just and true and honest, would there not be more people to support them than those who would wish to "harass" them? The answer implies that there is deception.

Originally posted by KSigMason
I mean it's pretty irresponsible to do such a fear mongering act.

Who benefits? Do I benefit in any way from reporting on a secretive, mafia-like organization, or do the ones with the power benefit from hiding in closed rooms and conspiring to undermine the government limited by the people we have in place?

Originally posted by KSigMason
As for the links, I had to laugh. In reference to the 'Are you Masons?' challenge to judges article, I would refuse to take part in a registry. It's prejudicial and a violation of my civil rights. The man prying around is just trying to get his way and will use a fear mongering to force judges into giving him what he wants.

I thought they were trying to keep their public servants in line and to be held accountable for their actions. If one is a sworn officer, judge, or politician in office, are they not first sworn to obey the people and uphold the Constitution? Since when does the Freemason pledge supersede that of the republic?

Originally posted by KSigMason
Fascist leaders are often anti-Masonic and often some places have their Grand Lodge exiled to other countries. Socialized, communists, and despotic tyrants have all been opponents of Freemasonry. It's good to see the company you align with.

That's not true; plenty of dictatorships have left Freemasons alone -including the ones which have been started by them. See the Bolshevik revolution for details. And I don't know any tyrants personally, so your comment was a bit out of line.

Originally posted by KSigMason
You're using fear mongering tactics and it's repugnant.

No I'm not. I have nothing to gain from pointing out conspiracy when I see it.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Wait! You're saying Hitler was justified?! That's like saying a rapist is justified because the victim dressed provocatively and had it coming. Disgusting.

No. And Stalin murdered far more people than Hitler ever did. Look at the company he kept.

Originally posted by KSigMason
Do you have proof of us trying to undermine existing governments?

How many presidents were Freemasons? Can I use FDR as a primer?

Roosevelt was Initiated: October 11, 1911, Holland Lodge No. 8, New York City. Brother Roosevelt participated in the Raising of his son Elliott (1910-1990) on February 17, 1933, in Architect's Lodge No. 519, also in New York City. He was present, but did not participate in the Degrees when two other sons, James (1907-1991) and Franklin D., Jr. (1914-1988) became Members of their brother Elliott's Lodge, on November 7, 1935. Brother and President Roosevelt was made the first Honorary Grand Master of the Order of DeMolay on April 13, 1934 at the White House. Governor of New York, 1929-1933. Nelson Rockefeller was the power behind this president. Was also a member of the Anti-American organization known as the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR). Died in office April 12, 1945. Roosevelt is responsible for passing the Emergency Banking and Relief Act of 1933. President Franklin Delano Roosevelt so warmly embraced this unconstitutional law. FDR once said: "In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." FDR stacked the U.S. Supreme Court with judges who would vow to continue his dictatorial powers. Those powers have been assumed by all Presidents since FDR, including the one presently in the White House.

And, from my own memory, I cite the exact law enacted by FDR:
Trading With The Enemy Act of 1917, as amended by Presidential Proclamation (#2040, March 9, 1933 I believe)
Presidential Proclamations #2038, 2039 March 6, 1933 declaring a bank holiday, enacting Emergency War Powers, and granting the banks power to conduct business in the United States (Black Law, 6th Edition, "Bank Holiday of March 6, 1933), empowering act is USCA Title 12, Section 95(b), which also grants the President and Sec. of Treasury the power to write into law anything, automatically approved and confirmed by Congress. *And that's just for starters*

Originally posted by KSigMason
And what Jacques DeMolay have to do with anything?

Seriously?

reply to post by 051r15

Originally posted by JoshNorton
Because people today would like to kill us for being Freemasons. Is that a good enough reason?
Under Saddam Hussein's reign in Iraq it was illegal to be a Freemason and the punishment was beheading.

May be Saddam Hussein realized that Islamic extremists were Freemasons....

Islamic Radicals Admit to Masonic Origins

www.terrorism-illuminati.com...

The radical faction of Islam, known as the Salafi, are a movement created through British intrigue and coordination with occult secret societies, toward fomenting a “Clash of Civilizations”. And though the West is largely unaware of them, they are almost entirely responsible for the extremism that Islam is mistakenly perceived for.

Zarqawi, in his letter to bin Laden, described the Mujahideen, those who have been duped by the CIA to believe they are fighting a “holy war”, as follows: “These are the quintessence of the Sunnis and the good sap of this country. In general, they belong to the Sunni doctrine and naturally to the Salafi creed.”

Interestingly, their most recent response to challenges against their authenticity has been to admit, in part, to their Masonic origins, although apologizing that the men claimed as its founders, Masons and British agents like Jamal Aghani, and Mohammed Abduh, were not its true representatives.

But this is a feeble attempt to disguise their true mischief and service to Western powers. Instead, the Salafi now claim to be devoted followers alone of Abdul Wahhab, the founder of Wahhabism, whose service as a British agent they have yet to discover.

That is, until the 19th century, and the advent of colonialism, and the common British strategy of “Divide and Rule”, which evidently exercised its hand in disrupting this situation.

An excellent article has now been posted, however, at Salafi Publications, which not only admits, but thoroughly exposes, the Masonic and deviant origins of the founders of the Salafi movement, and their successors, the Muslim Brotherhood.

Freemasonry enslaved people of the middle east, and they still think they would be loved by people.
www.salafipublications.com...

The beginnings of the 19th century saw the launch of the main bulk of the Colonial era
in the Middle East. Egypt was the first state to be occupied, firstly by the French, then
later by the British. This also brought along with it European Freemasonry which
became widespread towards the end of the 19th century, and which drew many of the
Egyptian intelligentsia and political figures.

reply to post by 051r15


I know you won't believe me, but there are no "real" secrets in masonry that have not been printed somewhere on the internet, or in a book. In fact, most of the things I swore to keep secret have been posted right here on this site. But since I promised to keep them secret, I will not be the one printing them. I will keep my word.

The whole reason for us to practice "secrecy" is to be a trusted friend. Someone could tell me something "in confidence" and it would remain that way. For example, if you and I were friends, and you told me your daughter was dating a Canadian, and you didn't want that to get out, I would keep that a secret and nobody would know your secret until your future son-in-law finished his sentence with "eh". But it would have never come from me. Is that a bad thing?

But since I promised to keep them secret, I will not be the one printing them. I will keep my word.

Then you are no use to this community, if you don't like to share.

What may I presume would be the case to keep your word. 1 of the 3.
1 You don't want humanity to find out the truth.
2 Something ugly is contained in the secrets.
3 Because your fraternity said so.


All you do on ATS is defend masonry, it's all you do on this board, you don;t debate with people on subjects, you don't share ideas, you don't get involved with the community.

So it's why you joined here I presume, for you to defend your brotherhood.

It is the truth, Not about ATS at all and becoming a member, what a great plan, lets join ATS and see who is talking crap about our brotherhood so we may confront them.What a load of ...

Originally posted by pepsi78
All you do on ATS is defend masonry, it's all you do on this board, you don;t debate with people on subjects, you don't share ideas, you don't get involved with the community.

Did you actually take a look at his thread history? He has posted in nearly every topic on this site. Try reading before you start insulting people.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

It gets insulting when 5 or 6 masons jump on a single guy in a thread, I have seen it before.
It's like you own the secret society forum, why be so paranoid ? let people have the debate without jumping on them. It's where I get the idea and I think many other people get the same thing, that you guys joined here on mostly to just defend the brotherhood

Originally posted by pepsi78
It is the truth, Not about ATS at all and becoming a member, what a great plan, lets join ATS and see who is talking crap about our brotherhood so we may confront them.What a load of

...

Funny, you've been here almost 6 years and in all that time, you've only gotten Applause from the staff 4 times. Network Dude has only been here half as long and has ten times as many applause. Guess which looks like a more useful contributor to ATS? (Compare other stats as well. He's started 169 threads, you? 23. He's got more than 5000 stars and 600 flags vs your 1000 stars and 15 flags.)

reply to post by JoshNorton

You don't have to start threads, I think I have been active in debate with 3,303 post counts, you will find that the posts that I made go out on different topics.

I think this very thread serves as an example, I feel more masons are about to pour in and surround me with different arguments all working in a team of 5

Originally posted by pepsi78
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

You don't have to start threads, I think I have been active in debate with 3,303 post counts, you will find that the posts that I made go out on different topics.

I think this very thread serves as an example, I feel more masons are about to pour in and surround me with different arguments all working in a team of 5

edit on 11-4-2011 by pepsi78 because: (no reason given)

You're the one who decided to make this about the poster and not the post. Again, Dude has 4400+ posts in a bunch of different threads besides the Secret Societies forum.

reply to post by TheForgottenOnes


funny, i've had that same thought a few times! i've been disturbed in the past how often i've researched conspiracy theories, and found they originate (or culminate) in a bunch of racist or fundamentalist (apologies to those who hold those beliefs!) nonsense. makes me wonder if there isn't a 'secret agenda' to keep society from progressing or evolving, so many of them come back to hating Jews or Catholics. not to mention, there is a lot of 'disinformation' in the conspiracy theories that can be easily disproven (such as the idea that most of our presidents have been freemasons - look it up, it just ain't true). hmmmm....

reply to post by pepsi78

3 Because your fraternity said so.

Not because they said so, but because I said so.

I voluntarily participated in the Freemasons degree work. I was asked many, many times if this was of my own free will and accord, and if I wanted to proceed, and each time, I said yes. I gave my word that I would not give away any of the secrets except in the same manner as I received them.

Any decent man and Mason will keep his word. Not because anyone said so, but because we ourselves gave our word, and we are honorable men that keep our words.

No one is keeping the secrets from you, you are perfectly welcome to receive them the same way that we did.

I hold many secrets in my breast, and only a small percentage of them have to do with Masonry. Many of them are from my work, my family, my friends, my own past experiences, but there is a commonality. In each case, I gave my word to not repeat them, and I will not violate that word, whether it be to a struggling co-worker, to a friend in need, or to a brother Mason. I stand by my word, and it has nothing to do with obligations or penalties, it simply has to do with honor.

Originally posted by 051r15
That's not true; plenty of dictatorships have left Freemasons alone -including the ones which have been started by them. See the Bolshevik revolution for details.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. The Bolsheviks outlawed Freemasonry in 1922, the same time they consolidated full power. Freemasonry was not legalized in Russia until after the fall of the Communist regime.

Originally posted by illuminazislayer
May be Saddam Hussein realized that Islamic extremists were Freemasons....

So first al-Qaeda wants to kill Freemasons, and now al-Qaeda IS Freemasons? You really can't have both...

Originally posted by pepsi78
It gets insulting when 5 or 6 masons jump on a single guy in a thread...

You know what is insulting? Insulting other people.

Read the guy's threads before you make a comment about his posting habits. The adult thing to do now would be to apologize and stop making it look like you somehow are being abused because you said something about another poster that was not true.

Seeing as all religion is evil, no i would not "continue to ignorant", it would come no suprise to find out that they are wore\se than previously thought

Greetings and Salutations,
Do you have the time?

I have noticed by the comments of apparent Christians the complaint of secrecy within Freemasonry. To me, this makes no sense whatsoever. It is calling the Kettle black. Have any of you ever been to the Vatican? I have. Have any of you seen the Great Archives? I have. The Vatican holds more secrets than any other organization in the world, some of which would bring about the end of Christianity faster than a rooster crows at dawn. The Vatican knows when it will come to an end. In the Great Hall there are plaques with each Pope along the wall. They come to an end, not because it stops on the current Pope but because the number of Popes is finite. You are on your next to last Pope. Your fear of the unknown has taken your hand.

In regards to the Secrets they hold, most that are not personal secrets between friends are simply the rituals and rights that are performed during meetings. Most people associate the rituals to Salomon. As Salomon was a patriarch of the Hebrew people, a One God belief, the rituals celebrate this fact. It is the celebration of the true names of God ie; Tetragramaton, Kis, El, Jehovah, etc.(the key of Solomon). Once one reaches the upper epsilon, they are introduced to the "Lost name of God" Jahbulon, previously known as "The Great Architect". It is the lack of knowledge that causes one to believe it to be evil.

Most initiates lead positive and fruitful lives helping others to achieve the same. Yes, there are those that use it to their own agenda and this is what gives people the wrong impression. People have a tendency to group people together and assume the the belief is constant. Anything can be used for wrong doing, anything. The purpose of these people and their agenda is to unite the world as one, is this so bad? It is their process that most people disagree with, but it is for the betterment of Mankind. The people that have their own agenda are more often than not connected to other societies by way of Theta Nu Epsilon.

Evil is a perception of the mind, as balance is the only truth.

There is no time any longer.

Originally posted by network dude

 

I know you won't believe me, but there are no "real" secrets in masonry that have not been printed somewhere on the internet, or in a book. In fact, most of the things I swore to keep secret have been posted right here on this site. But since I promised to keep them secret, I will not be the one printing them. I will keep my word.

Yeah, I do find that hard to believe. I do not doubt the fact that there are many secrets inside masonry. The claim that they are all available online may be a bit much, but over the years there have been masons who told quite a bit; not all are honorable men such as yourself.

Originally posted by network dude

 

The whole reason for us to practice "secrecy" is to be a trusted friend. Someone could tell me something "in confidence" and it would remain that way. For example, if you and I were friends, and you told me your daughter was dating a Canadian, and you didn't want that to get out, I would keep that a secret and nobody would know your secret until your future son-in-law finished his sentence with "eh". But it would have never come from me. Is that a bad thing?

Exactly. And yes, it is a bad thing. It's NOT a bad thing for YOU and for those who may not be politicians, police, judges, or other public servants who have a duty and obligation to serve the people before their own interests, and not enter into agreement which may compromise their position. Let's face it, we've all heard the story, a cop pulls over another mason. There's an exchange of words. Cops lets mason go. Where's the harm? It's a double standard. And that's just the good stuff -the less important, very mundane effects. The point is, these "secrets" aren't always simple and friendly, especially when we are dealing with wealthy and powerful men --or those who achieved their wealth and power with a little help from the brotherhood. Now, I am only giving you an idea based on your own admission, so I don't expect people to start posting for me to "cite specific examples". I can show respect, but don't disrespect my basic intelligence as a human being, folks.

As for you NetworkDude, I greatly appreciate what you have added to this thread. I know that you are not a mason suckup or some kind of troll, or even a sympathizer. You have done well. Beer is always on me in my neck of the woods.

reply to post by pepsi78

Using truth we defend our Fraternity. There is hardly debate as its usually an anti-Mason who jumps on and makes some absurd claim. We come on to counter such lies.

As I have come to understand it, The Knights Templar found something, be it an item or information it is not known. Either way it gave them power. On that dreaded 13th day of October 1341 when the Knights Templar, to put it politely, were disbanded the actual identities of the members disappeared. As the Freemasons have existed from the times of the Pharaohs, it is an impossibility to tie the Knights Templar to them. However, It does not eliminate the possibility that some Templar's did not become Freemasons, and that bringing in that information previously stated could have changed Freemasonry. Even non-initiates understand that Freemasonry has changed and split and changed again much in the same way as Christianity, ie; Stone Masons only to opening membership to all. This may have been what brought about the "Illuminati" within Freemasonry, but as I have found is no longer associated. Illuminati means "the enlightened" insinuating that they have a knowledge Not Known to common man. I believe that The "Illuminati" are remnants of the the Knights Templar only as it did not stay in Freemasonry. Because of it's "Secrets" Freemasonry has been and is being used as a patsy for the true Illuminati simply because of its original connection and nothing more.

reply to post by 051r15


The real truth is, if I was told a something in confidence that could affect a larger group, I would still consider myself bound by my promise to keep that which was told to me in confidence a secret, but I would do everything in my power to urge the person to do the right thing, whatever that might be. It can get sticky, but there is no other way to be trusted, and I would expect the same from anyone who took the obligations I did or any friend who called himself honest. But I am also free to tell you if I am holding any deep dark secrets that I won't divulge, and I am not. You don't know me, so I don't expect you to take that as gospel.

If you want to know some stuff that might lead to unlocking a great mystery that I believe has been lost over time check out this thread. Nothing in it is "secret" but a lot of the knowledge that we were discussing has been lost over time and could quite possibly be of great importance.

As with anything, you have to ask the questions to get answers, and knowing what questions to ask is sometimes the toughest part. Knowing what I do of the Freemasons on this site, I would say that any of them old the same ideals I do as far as truth, so for what it's worth, you will get completely honest answers from most if not all of them.