Simple question for evolutionists

I posted this in one thread I was commenting on and thought it would be a wonderful topic here in this forum.

Everyone would have to agree that if we consider the universe we find that everything does exist but very well might not have existed. We ourselves exist, but we would not have existed if man and woman had not met and mated. The same mark can be found with everything. A valley exists because a stream of water took that way down, perhaps because the ice melted up there. If the melted ice had not been there, there would have been no valley. And so with everything.Everything exists,but they would not have existed if some other thing had not been what it was or done what it did.Considering this, none of theses things are an explanation of its own existence or the source of its own existence. In other words existence is contingent upon something else. Each thing possesses existence, can pass it on,but it did not originate its existence.Its essentially a receiver of existence. Thus being said, its impossible to conceive of a universe consisting exclusively of contingent beings.

Question is this: If nothing exists except beings that receive their existence,How does anything exist at all? Thanks for your replies.

Yeah, took me awhile to absorb simple truth too.

Anyone?


OKAY....here is the answer...ITS GOD!!!

Originally posted by Theophorus
Yeah, took me awhile to absorb simple truth too.

Anyone?

edit on 8-4-2011 by Theophorus because: tick tock tick tock

OKAY....here is the answer....its God.

edit on 8-4-2011 by Theophorus because: give the answer to the ever hard question

haha yea of course its god

Why why why so many threads like this recently?? Are you hoping to be raptured on may 21st??

The answer isnt God as you put it.....thats a religious persons perspective based on nothing but faith.

reply to post by Theophorus


A simple answer to your reply is to read this book, take the time, digest it and then you have your answer.

www.arvindguptatoys.com...

by Carl Sagan

How can the answer be GOD? Its an unanswerable question that philosophers have pondered for ages. If everything's existence depends on another's existence, then how can GOD be above all that? You have include GOD in that circle. Did GOD create everything or did we create GOD?

Which came first the chicken or the egg?

If a tree falls in a forest with nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Different spins on the same question.

I feel the same way about some science when people present it as absolute fact. Science changes as the results change. Take the BIG BANG, how can science present a theory as fact when that theory has no way to be proven.
Science does provide us with facts on some levels, i.e. we need oxygen and water to live. The bigger questions still remain.

Its a matter of personal belief. I believe its much too confusing for my little brain.

reply to post by coolhanddan

A simple answer to your reply is to read this book, take the time, digest it and then you have your answer.

Wow! what a large E book.thanks for your reply. Problem though. I cant seem to find anything that addresses my particular question. If you could be so kind as to help me find this, as you quoted. thanks, theo-

It really is a simple question. Here it is again,

If nothing exists except beings that receive their existence,How does anything exist at all?

Now go back and read what I said in my opening thread in regards to existence as truth.

What else has God given us to know Him by and that He is God alone besides putting the knowledge of Him in each of us and through His Creation? (Romans 1:18-20)

Maybe God in His infinite wisdom and foreknowledge knew that those two would not be enough for some people, so He did something no person or other god could do- He gave us prophecy. He declared the end from the beginning and ladies and gentlemen, end time prophecy is occurring right before our eyes.

But let's look at this for a second so we hear it from God's own Words:

"I am God and there is no other, I am God and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure....Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will do it."- Isaiah 46: 9, 10, 11b.

This from the same book Isaiah which was found completely intact in the qumran caves by the Dead Sea in the 1950's.

God has shown us what is to come. He did so in His Son Jesus Christ who fulfilled over 100 Old Testament prophecies to the tee through His birth, death, and resurrection. Prophecies written hundreds of years before Christ, with the first being named in the Garden when He pronounced Judgement on Satan, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel."- Genesis 3:15. This over two thousand years before Christ.
www.experienceproject.com...


1. God Has a Plan.



The universe is not a car without a driver, nor a driver without a map. There is a purpose behind everything. The Bible often speaks of this great plan of God. It is the “purpose” of that famous and favorite Bible verse, Rom. 8:28. God has planned out this purpose in advance. He thought it out, planned it in every detail, and carries it out “on purpose”. It is an absolute purpose, not merely a wish or command. In theology it is called the “decree”. God has decreed His purpose and it shall happen. See Rom. 9:11, Isa. 46:10-11, Eph. 3:11, Acts 4:28 and 2 Tim. 1:9.



2. God Predestined Everything.

The plan of God is also called predestination. God pre-programmed everything that will come to pass (Eph. 1:11). Everything can be traced back to God's ultimate plan, for “from Him are all things” (Rom. 11:36). He not only created all things (Gen. 1:1), but drew up the blueprints for everything. He foreordained what will happen, and He did this in advance in eternity. He drew up the plan before He laid the foundation. He pre-determined what would happen, not merely what could or should happen. Then He set the ball rolling in a certain course, and it must follow the pre-arranged course.



3. God Planned Every Detail.

There is a time for every purpose under Heaven, says Eccl. 3:1. God has planned out this great purpose to the smallest detail. This includes the exact timing when everything would occur. He also prepared every relationship with every other detail. Nothing was ignored. Even the smallest and seemingly insignificant detail was included, such as the number of hairs on our heads. He prepared this detailed inventory in advance, and the construction of the universe follows it perfectly, for God is the great architect and contractor who never makes a mistake. In theology, we speak of the great plan as the decree, the individual details as decrees.



4. There is No Such Thing as Chance.

Since God has determined everything in advance, there is no such thing as chance. “Chance” was a concept invented by certain Greek philosophers, especially promoted among the Epicureans (opposed in Acts 17). It denies the existence of a personal and sovereign God who foreordains everything. Similarly, there is no such thing as luck, either good or bad. Nor is there any fortune or accidents. Even the roll of dice has been determined by God (Pro. 16:33). Conversely, there is also no such thing as blind fate, a concept promoted by the ancient Stoics. Whatever will be will be, only because God has determined it so. Coincidence is true only in the sense that two events may co-incide, or happen at the same time. But that is because God planned it like that.



5. God's Plan is Inevitable.

This plan will, shall and must come to completion. It is inevitable because God is sovereign and omnipotent. Neither angel, demon, sinner or saint can stop it in any detail, for even their actions to stop it are part of the plan. Nothing can stop it. See Psa. 33:11, 148:3, Tit. 1:2, Pro. 19:21, Isa. 14:27, Heb. 6:17, and Job 42:1. It is God's plan and only God could change it. But God has sworn with an oath that He will not change it. He is not fickle like a man who can change his mind (Jer. 4:28, 23:20, 30:24, I Sam. 15:29). In time, God interacts with us, and seems to change His actions, but this is all part of the great strategy. The plan is God's eternal purpose and God does not change His sworn intentions. He is not an Indian-giver or cheat. He keeps the oath He has sworn.

faithbibleonline.net...

reply to post by leemachino

How can the answer be GOD? Its an unanswerable question that philosophers have pondered for ages

The answer is that their must be something that is not a receiver of existence. This would be a giver. A little intellect is all I ask fokes. If you cant answer my question, sorry to be rude, but dont bother. Thanks theo-

reply to post by Theophorus


You have to read the book and learn, the answer is there but you need to search for the truth, digest all the knowledge. I gave you one of many keys there are to the subject.

The answer you may find in any number of books, and it seems you already found it in the Bible so kudos to you for finding it in one place. Hopefully you will not close off your search because it is something that takes longer to ponder with all the other observably facts of 21st century science to take in to account to make a sound judgement. Then once you judge, this becomes your opinion and you know what they say about opinions.....

Opinions are atresia ani in nature, everyone has them and they all stink. Good luck on your long journey or short one, whichever, you find true.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by leemachino

 

How can the answer be GOD? Its an unanswerable question that philosophers have pondered for ages

The answer is that their ["their" is possessive, the word you want is "there"] must be something that is not a receiver of existence. This would be a giver. A little intellect is all I ask fokes. If you cant answer my question, sorry to be rude, but dont bother. Thanks theo-

edit on 8-4-2011 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)

The thread title says " a simple question for evolutionists". It is not a simple question because there is no one answer that will suit everybody. It is a question you can only answer for yourself and not anybody else. Therefore it is a loaded question so you can preach about GOD.

In short, nobody can answer your question the way you would like. That's what I was getting at. Like I said its a matter of FAITH. If there is one giver, that giver would probably be lonely at the top. It is rude to ask a question like that and imply somebody isn't using intellect if you don't like the FOLKS (not fokes) answer. (Which is only a person's opinion in a question such as that)

If nothing exists except beings that receive their existence,How does anything exist at all?

Where to start? The first thing I would have to say is that your initial question, while I believe it to be honest in intentions is flawed in reason.

If we examine your question we find some issues:

"If nothing exists except beings that receive their existence...."

There are lots of things that exist, trees, water, planets, stars, atoms, etc. Not all of them have to be intelligent to exist, and certainly not receptive of an intelligent design through intention.

"....beings that receive their existence...."

This is an assumption based on your own pre-determined notion that anything that exists, in this case human beings, or intelligent beings for that matter must have recieved an existance by design rather than by necessity.

Here is where the topic becomes impossible to discuss and a trick question. If you automatically draw a connection between a creator and existance being given to you, then you have already answered your own question; however you will never be able to prove it to anyone other than yourself. To question one's own existance is perfectly normal, both physically, spiritually and psychologically, however you have to remain objective in order to examine the answers you get correctly.

If you cannot use the scientific method to formulate an explaination, then you are not going to find your answer. Unfortunately we have not advanced far enough scientifically to determine within a reasonable proximity the origins of the universe.

To simply claim that because we don't know that some magical bearded man in the sky did it that is impossible to comprehend is not only ironic but hypocritical at best.

I am sorry, but unless you release the pre-determined notion of a creator and start looking at your existance from an outside perspective and objective critisizm, then you will never find your answer; but if you do, please let us know because we would like to know as well.

King

reply to post by Faith2011


I was just getting ready to post a thread on this very issue, but you summed up a few arguments from my thread that I just had to respond to your post.

I just can't tell you how many things are contradictory and wrong with your statement, so I'll leave my long written throughts to my own thread, but instead I will leave you with just a few questions that I will be posting soon.

1. God has a plan
2. God has predestined everything
3. God planned every detail
4. There is no such thing as chance
5. God's plan is inevitable

Since this is your guideline for being a follower of your god, then answer me this:

1. If God has a plan, it is predetermined, unfallable and perfect in every detail, why do you bother to pray? How can you as an individual, not even a thiest begin to be so selfish and arrogant as to think that God is going to change his perfect plan to answer your requests for help?

If God does answer your prayers as you believe he does, then it is perfectly logical to think that your prayers are part of his plan, just as his answers for you. If that is the case then answer me this:

2. Where is your free will? If he has a plan and it is infallable and perfect, and every descision you have made, will make or ever THINK of making is already planned out, what is the purpose of your life? To serve a God that requires you spend all your money on him and worship him OR ELSE?

The entire system is flawed and is based on fear. You are taught from birth to be religious OR ELSE. Even as children you are taught that you are flawed because of something someone else did thousands of years ago and you are a bad person because of it; not to mention that if you refuse to worship a god that refuses to show himself and prove to the world that he exists that you will be endlessly tortured for eternity. Seems like a nice guys huh?

I have a ton more questions, but for the sake of my own thread I will save the details and further explainations for there. These are just a couple questions for you to think about, you can answer them if you wish, but they are intended to be rhetorical and for you just to think about, not necessarily debate in this thread.

King

This question doesn't concern the process or Theory of evolution.

Why you are asking "evolutionists" to answer it, I have no idea.

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by leemachino

 

How can the answer be GOD? Its an unanswerable question that philosophers have pondered for ages

The answer is that their must be something that is not a receiver of existence. This would be a giver. A little intellect is all I ask fokes. If you cant answer my question, sorry to be rude, but dont bother. Thanks theo-

edit on 8-4-2011 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)

Then the answer is clearly you brain is its own god.

Given the fact that our brain creates everything we see and experience, this is the only real answer. This would make it the giver as you put it.

Without a brain you cant experience reality. We have created this entire universe including you and i.

We know when your brain dies your body does too, we know that at this point the body starts to decompose. And the person that was...is no longer able to communicate through the body. These are facts backed by evidence and research as you should already know

What we dont know is what happens after this process. Do we rot in the ground? Do we go to heaven? Do we roam our made up universe and claim to be god? Are we born again into another life? Does this life begin again? Do we unplug ourselves? Do i go to hell? Do i get my 14 virgins? Will it be one big party in the sky with God, Allah, Buddah etc?
NO ONE KNOWS not even you. To claim you have solved the riddle of life is absurd lol

What if once we die we create an identical universe to the one we lived and become our own god over everything. If parallel universes do exist this could be the reason behind it.

We could be on a spaceship to another planet or universe and we are using a simulator to alleviate the boredom...2 days in their time and a lifetime here...accidents end the program prematurely if anything goes wrong along the trip or you get there early.

These ideas are no more provable at present as your ideas, therefor they are a fair comparison and all equally as likely....given facts and evidence.

I know the facts as should you...they are listed above. ANYONE can make up an idea and claim it to be true. Many people have written MANY books on how we are here and whats life all about. To limit yourself to one book and claim its better than any other theory is just crazy.

You proved nothing except for your ignorant

.

The Creator, created time, space and matter. That means He is not bound by His creation. He also possesses the ability to enter and work within time, space and matter. Just like a computer and a computer maker. The computer maker makes everything work perfectly and every time he presses a button, or clicks on a box, the computer will respond according to how it was made to be. The computer maker is outside of the computer, yet he can work within the computer and make changes, fix, etc.
The computer maker also has the ability to make the rules and if he made the computer, he can also break it.
The Creator God is eternal, outside of time, outside of space and outside of matter. Those are only 3 dimensions when physicists have spoken of up to 11 or 12 dimensions we cannot even see and they barely comprehend.

Just as a side note, i will give you 100 billion dollars in you log an infinite number of posts. It is hard for us humans to even imagine a place without time.

reply to post by creatednotEvolved


Where did the creator come from? Who created the creator? Who created the creator's creator? There are many questions about life, existence, purpose and no hard answers. This is not a new debate.

Many ancient civilizations believed in many gods. Were they wrong because now popular beliefs are monotheistic? Or was the movie and tv series "the highlander" based on ancient gods. "There can only be one highlander (god)"

I'm not trying to ridicule, its just that I am pointing out the absurdity that anybody could possibly think that they know the answers to life's age old questions.

Is there a god?
Are there many gods?
Why are we here? What purpose?
What is existence? Are we really here?
Did Horton really hear a Who? Is our galaxy merely a speck of dust on a flower that an elephant is holding in its trunk?

I do not have the answers to those questions. I do not have the answer to the OP's question. Nobody can, all you really can have is personal opinion or beliefs. Anybody claiming to have all the answers or the one big answer is merely trying to push their beliefs / opinions onto others or they could be misguided.

Originally posted by creatednotEvolved
The Creator, created time, space and matter. That means He is not bound by His creation...... Just like a computer and a computer maker.

Your post is the definition of a logical fallacy...

Your logic is flawed because you are describing a physical object from which its origins CAN BE PROVED and shown to vast numbers of people with PHYSICAL EVIDENCE. We can take a tour of Microsoft and be shown how the parts are assembled and where the components come from. We can step back and look at where the materials come from and how they are created as well. We DO NOT claim that Bill Gates is the creator of the computer and he is outside the realm of question.

It is too convinient of a loophole to make "God" an exception to the rule.

I have just as much evidence to say that "Santa Clause" created the universe and everything in it because he is outside the realm of space and time and therefore cannot be questioned.

Do you know how much evidence I have to prove that Santa is the creator of us all? The same as you do for your "God", absolutely ZERO.

[Please re-direct the thread back on topic of existance as the OP stated, the last thing we need is yet another religious debate derailing an honest question]

King

reply to post by Kingalbrect79


But we have to use the physical realm to explain God who is beyond the limitations that we are restricted to.
How can anyone explain God, in inter-dimensional language???
Would you like me to draw you a picture of the 4th, 5th, or 6th dimension???
If one cannot see a Creator thru His creation, then that person is having trouble dealing with just the time,space and matter around them.

Originally posted by Kingalbrect79

Originally posted by creatednotEvolved

I have just as much evidence to say that "Santa Clause" created the universe and everything in it because he is outside the realm of space and time and therefore cannot be questioned.

By the way, santa clause is not outside the realm of space and time. He's in shopping malls every year around december.
King

edit on 8-4-2011 by Kingalbrect79 because: Edit to add...

Originally posted by Kingalbrect79

I have just as much evidence to say that "Santa Clause" created the universe and everything in it because he is outside the realm of space and time and therefore cannot be questioned.


King

edit on 8-4-2011 by Kingalbrect79 because: Edit to add...

By the way, santa clause is not outside the realm of space and time. He's in shopping malls every year around december.