Originally posted by Sigismundus
reply to post by edmc^2
Hi edmc -
Cool - so you DO understand my posts - I wasn't sure you did.
So...according to the logic / understanding of the term ADAM to mean MALE AND FEMALE in BOTH of the Creation Myths of the Jews in Genesis, the ADAM
in the 2nd Creation Myth (Gen 2:4b - 4:25) is BOTH male and Female too (i.e. 'mankind') i.e. the term is used EXACTLY the SAME WAY in BOTH myths -
i.e. ADAM in Myth # 2 (who was not 'made' but 'formed from mud') was somehow able to reproduce and have a 'helpmate' with the SAME female half
that is described in the 1st Creation Myth in Genesis (Gen 1:1 to 2:4a, cont;d 5:1ff ) when it is stated in the paleoHeb of the mangled texts
'In the Day in which THEY were created, ELOHIM (not Yhwh-elohim) made them MALE & FEMALE : and he called THEIR name ADAM, and blessed them'
which means, according to your warped logic, that even, BEFORE the character of the female ('eve') - 'HA VVAH' was ever in existence BEFORE, she
had already been 'formed' by YHWH-ELOHIM from ADAM's rib AFTER the animals were 'formed' from mud?
Kind of makes the Ha vah ('Eve') component in Myth #2 redundant doesn't it?
Can't you see that the ORDER OF CREATION (inlcuding ADAM) in both Creation Myth #1 (Gen 1:1 to 2:4a - Adam created last) and in Creation Myth #2 (Gen
2:4b - 4:25 - Adam formed FIRST) is completely different?
What text are YOU reading ??!!
OK - done with my research.
You asked:
What text am I reading?
The texts you’ve mentioned, namely:
1) Gen 1:1 to 2:4a - the texts you refer to as “Creation Myth #1” (where you claim “Adam created last”)
2) Gen 2:4b - 4:25 - the texts you refer to as “Creation Myth #2” (where you claim “Adam formed FIRST”)
Now here’s my take:
Since we agree that the word “ADAM” have several meanings (ie: the man Adam, Human, Man, MANKIND) then I can proceed with the unraveling of your
purported ‘contradictions’.
You said:
the 1st Creation Myth in Genesis (Gen 1:1 to 2:4a, cont;d 5:1ff )
After reading and analyzing the what you call “the 1st Creation Myth in Genesis”:
The sequence of Creation Events according to the Bible goes this way (extracted from my past post)::
1) Gen 1:1 –
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
(Gen 1:1) Here the Heavens (galaxies), planets, earth, sun moon stars already existed. It's a statement of the “beginning” of creation – these
can be billions and billions of years. In fact according to evidence the universe is somewhere around 14byo and the earth somewhere around 4byo. No
specific time line given. No contradiction.
2) Genesis 1:2 -
“Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active
force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.”
(Gen 1:2) Here God now focuses his attention to the formless planet - called earth, enveloped in “watery deep”.
Next verses deal with the preparation of the formless planet earth for habitation.
(Sequence of Creative Events)
Day No. ------- Creative Works --------------------------------------Texts
1 ------ Light; division between day and night --------------------- Gen 1:3-5
2 ------ Expanse, a division between waters
beneath the expanse and waters above it -------------------------- Gen 1:6-8
3 ------ Dry land; vegetation ----------------------------------------- Gen 1:9-13
4 ------ Heavenly luminaries become discernible from earth ----- Gen 1:14-19
5 ------ Aquatic souls and flying creatures ------------------------- Gen 1:20-23
6 ------ Land animals; man ------------------------------------------- Gen 1:24-31
7 ------Upon completion of his creative works, God rested------- Gen 2:1-3
…
Conclusion: there’s no contradiction found.
Now at Gen 2:4a it says:
“4 This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, . . .” (Genesis 2:4)
Question is:
Are the “heavens” mentioned in Gen 2:4a the same “heavens” mentioned in Gen 1:1?
Again it’s in the context of the story line and the event and how the word was used.
Just like the word “ADAM” let’s look at the word “heavens”
Gen 2:4 (ASV):
“These are the generations of the heavens* and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah)
made earth and heaven.”
Notice again Strong’s numbers about the different usage of the word “heavens”
Lexicon / Concordance for Genesis 2:4
2:4
אֵלֶּה תֹולְדֹות הַשָּׁמַיִם וְהָאָרֶץ בְּהִבָּֽרְאָם בְּיֹום עֲשֹׂות יְהוָה
אֱלֹהִים אֶרֶץ וְשָׁמָֽיִם׃
English (NASB)
Strong's
Root Form (Hebrew)
This
h428
אלה 'el-leh
is the account
h8435
תולדות towlĕdah
of the heavens
h8064
שמים shamayim
and the earth
h776
ארץ 'erets
when they were created,
h1254
ברא bara'
in the day
h3117
יום yowm
that the LORD
h3068
יהוה Yĕhovah
God
h430
אלהים 'elohiym
made
h6213
עשה `asah
earth
h776
ארץ 'erets
and heaven.
h8064
שמים shamayim
Focusing on the word שמים shamayim (heaven)
Strong's H8064 - shamayim
שָׁמַיִם
Transliteration
shamayim
Pronunciation
shä·mah'·yim (Key)
1) heaven, heavens, sky
a) visible heavens, sky
1) as abode of the stars
2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
b) Heaven (as the abode of God)
So here just like the word “Adam” have different usage, just like the as the word “DAY” have different usage – depending on the CONTEXT, the
word “heaven” also have different meaning.
Thus from this, we can see and understand that what is being described by the Bible writer at Gen 2:4a IS not the same “heavens” as in Gen 1:1
(Universe).
BUT: 1) heaven, heavens, sky a) visible heavens, sky. That is “expanse/firmament” as recorded in Genesis 1:8.
“And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.” – Gen 1:8 (ASV)
Note again from the Masoretic text:
וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָֽרָקִיעַ שָׁמָיִם וַֽיְהִי־עֶרֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹקֶר יֹום
שֵׁנִֽי׃ פ
Translation:
English (NASB)
Strong's
Root Form (Hebrew)
God
h430
אלהים 'elohiym
called
h7121
קרא qara'
the expanse
h7549
רקיע raqiya`
heaven.
h8064
שמים shamayim
And there was evening
h6153
ערב `ereb
and there was morning,
h1242
בקר boqer
a second
h8145
שני sheniy
day.
h3117
יום yowm
Noticed the Hebrew word “רקיע raqiya` `” was also called “שמים shamayim”.
Comparing it with Genesis 1:1 (ASV)
“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
Lexicon / Concordance for Genesis 1:1
Gen1:1
בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
English (NASB)
Strong’s
Root Form (Hebrew)
In the beginning
h7225
ראשית re’shiyth
God
h430
אלהים ‘elohiym
created
h1254
ברא bara’
the heavens
h8064
שמים shamayim
and the earth.
h776
ארץ ‘erets
In short the correct interpretation or understanding of the word “heavens” at Gen 1:1 is the visible UNIVERSE.
Again per Strong’s numbers: שמים shamayim
1) as abode of the stars
2) as the visible universe, …, etc
ONLY by looking at it this way can one arrive at the correct meaning and reading of Gen 2:4b - 4:25.
That is, within the context of the chapters / verses and by using the correct meaning of the word שמים shamayim (the heavens).
Of course IF one IS to read it YOUR WAY (with so many conflicting statements and opinions from your “experts”) then he/she will arrive at the
erroneous conclusion / understanding. That is:
Creation Myth #2 (Gen 2:4b - 4:25 - Adam formed FIRST) is completely different
IMJO It’s the same as reading a map – if one will not consider the context of the location - then one will never arrive at the correct
destination. The context are the “four corners / extremities of the earth” that is: N, S, E & W.
So the correct CONTEXT / reading / understanding of Gen 2:4b – 4:26 are the following:
In narrative way:
Gen 2:4b – 4:26 shows that the focus of the story line is now on man's (Adam and Eve’s, their offspring) existence / appearance / affairs on
earth under the heavens (1/a - sky). It explains accurately how ‘the first man’ was formed from the “dust of the ground” followed by ‘the
woman’. It tells of how they were given a good start – living in paradise called the Garden of Eden. Then it tells that because of disobedience
they lost the chance / privilege to live happily in that Paradisaic location/habitat forever. It tells the reason why they did not listen to their
Creator but instead listened to a lie from an angelic creature that turned bad. By a cunning way (ventriloquism), Satan used a snake to deceive Eve
and Adam followed suit. And that disobedience then brought in imperfection, sin and death. It also explains because of tier sin against God (Elohim)
they started to grow old get sick and eventually died. The narrative also tells us that life outside the Garden of Eden was a tough one for now they
have to grow their own food. Outside the garden Adam and Eve bore sinful imperfect children just like them and one this offspring named Cain murdered
his brother Abel due to jealousy. From there mankind flourished – speaking one language living in a dying imperfect sinful state.
The rest as they say is history and we’re part of that living history.
As you can see there’s no contradiction whatsoever. All you need to know is where story line starts and where it ends and of course you need to
consider also the contents, sequence of events as well as the context of the story line.
I hope this is crystal clear enuff.
As for the Creation of the man Adam (Gen 2:4b – 4:26):
The Scriptures say that:
“7 And Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah) proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the
breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. 8 Further, Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah) planted a garden in E′den, toward
the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed.” (Genesis 2:7-9)
Then after some time passed:
“18 And Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah) went on to say: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going to make a
helper for him, as a complement of him.. . .” (Genesis 2:18)
“. . .. 21 Hence Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah).had a deep sleep fall upon the man and, while he was sleeping, he took one of his
ribs and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22 And Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah) proceeded to build the rib that he had taken
from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man. 23 Then the man said: “This is at last bone of my bones And flesh of my flesh. This one will
be called Woman, Because from man this one was taken.”” (Genesis 2:20-23)
So obviously the man Adam was Created FIRST then after some time later after naming newly created animals the Woman (Eve) was finally created (formed)
from man.
Again no contradiction found.
Note:
Man – ish (derived from ish.shah)
Woman – ish.shah (lit. a man with a womb)
As for Genesis 5:1-2:
The Scriptures say:
“5 This is the book of Adam’s history. In the day of God’s creating Adam he made him in the likeness of God. 2 Male and female he created them.
After that he blessed them and called their name Man in the day of their being created.” (Genesis 5:1-2)
From this verse (V1) we can logically conclude that Moses was using “the book of Adam’s history" (possibly Adam himself wrote this book) to
include additional details of “MANS” Creation – both MALE and FEMALE and the succeeding generations down to Noah.
So again calling or referring to them as “ADAM” or “MAN” is correct for both are “MANKIND” not the animal kind.
To summarize:
The texts you’ve mentioned, namely:
1) Gen 1:1 to 2:4a - the texts you refer to as “Creation Myth #1” (where you claim “Adam created last)
IS not a CREATION MYTH and that “ADAM” or “MAN” (Mankind – male and female) was CREATED LAST from ALL of God’s creations.
Notice:
“. . .And God went on to say: “Let us make
man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish
of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the
earth.” 27 And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish
of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”” (Genesis 1:26-28)
“31 After that God saw everything he had made and, look! [it was] very good. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a sixth
day.” (Genesis 1:31)
“2 Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. 2
And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work
that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. 3 And God proceeded to bless the seventh day
and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making.” (Genesis 2:1-3)
End of physical / material creation.
2) Gen 2:4b - 4:25 - the texts you refer to as “Creation Myth #2” (where you claim “Adam formed FIRST”)
IS not a CREATION MYTH and that the man “ADAM” (the first HUMAN) was CREATED FIRST then the WOMAN (Eve).
Notice:
“7 And Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah) proceeded to
form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils
the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7)
“. . .And Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah) went on to say: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself.
I am going to
make a helper for him as a complement of him.”” (Genesis 2:18)
“. . .Hence Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah) had a deep sleep fall upon the man and, while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs
and then closed up the flesh over its place. 22 And Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah) proceeded to build the rib that he had
taken
from the man into a woman and to bring her to the man.” (Genesis 2:21-22)
So Adam (the first human) was created FIRST then eventually after some time the woman was created (from man)
As for your claim that the Genesis Creation accounts are “MYTHS” notice Jesus Christ himself:
“And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?” 4 In
reply he said:
“Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female 5 and said, ‘For this reason a
man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’?” (Matthew 19:3-5)
If it’s as you say a “MYTH” then by Jesus quoting Genesis 2:24 to opposers of God (Elohim), it would mean nothing. He will be ridiculed by
enemies of Jehovah God (YHWH Elohim - יהוה Yĕhovah).
Note also the beloved physician Luke:
“. . .I resolved also, because I have traced all things from the start with accuracy, to write them in logical order to you, most excellent
The·oph′i·lus, 4 that you may know fully the certainty of the things that you have been taught orally.” (Luke 1:3-4)
“. . .Furthermore,
Jesus himself, when he commenced [his work], was about thirty years old,
being the son, as the opinion was, of
Joseph, [son] of He′li, 24 [son] of Mat′that, [son] of Le′vi, [son] of Mel′chi, [son] of Jan′na·i, [son] of Joseph, 25 [son] of
Mat·ta·thi′as,. . .” (Luke 3:23-25)
“37 [son] of Me·thu′se·lah, [son] of E′noch, [son] of Ja′red, [son] of Ma·ha′la·le·el, [son] of Ca·i′nan, 38 [son] of E′nosh,
[son] of Seth,
[son] of Adam, [son] of God.” (Luke 3:37-38)
Why would Dr. Luke include these “accurate genealogy” of Jesus if ADAM was a “mythical person”?
There’s more but these should be more than enuff to prove my point.
As you can see there are NO contradictions if one considers the context and the correct sequence of events and the correct meaning / usage of
words.
Of course if one is intent on the proving that the Bible is a “myth” or contradictory – I guess you’re way of doing it is the way. But it will
only prove one thing for sure! Those who go this route will ONLY SHOW to all that he / she is clearly confused and has no idea what the Bible is all
about.
So there you go – NOT a MYTH and NO CONTRADICTIONS – Clear daylight!
Of course you can keep believing your as you put it “Clear as mud” explanation nad understanding but just to let you know – it will only lead
you to more and further confusion. In other words believing on a lie will get one nowhere. That is MJO.
So which one do you think IS the CORRECT understanding and reading of the Genesis Accounts?
My as you put it “shockingly jejune” understanding or your as you put it “Clear as mud” explanation?
Since I’m correct on the proper usage of the word “ADAM”, I'm also sure that I'm correct on the proper usage of the word “heavens”.
ATS – what say you?
Ty,
edmc2.
Suplemental info: Different usage of the word “DAY”
[center]Lexicon Results
Strong's H3117 - yowm
יוֹם
Transliteration
yowm
Pronunciation
yōm (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From an unused root meaning to be hot
TWOT Reference
852
Outline of Biblical Usage [/center]
1) day, time, year
a) day (as opposed to night)
b) day (24 hour period)
1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
2) as a division of time
a) a working day, a day's journey
c) days, lifetime (pl.)
d) time, period (general)
e) year
f) temporal references
1) today
2) yesterday
3) tomorrow
www.blueletterbible.org...
day
noun \ˈdā\
Definition of DAY
1
a : the time of light between one night and the next b : daylight 1 c : daytime
2
: the period of rotation of a planet (as earth) or a moon on its axis
3
: the mean solar day of 24 hours beginning at mean midnight
4
: a specified day or date
5
: a specified time or period : age