Why I believe Creation is factually accurate – The Reality!

Can we stop having a new thread everyday screaming 100% proof, only to post opinions?

Proof, is empirical evidence.... what you propose is circumstantial evidence... which is not proof by definition.

Cool story, I'm sure you made some good points, but do you seriously not know what "proof" is?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Faith2011

 

Originally posted by Faith2011
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Your mind is Void of Perceiving The Truth of The Creator!

So your argument boils down to repeating the same points over and over until I bloody my fingers to the bone responding?

I'm sorry, but can you prove that your so called 'creator' exists?

20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B)

21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.

22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].

Romans

I'm sorry, but why should I accept this writing as anything but the ramblings of a homophobic, sexist, ignorant savage who was less informed about the world in his adulthood than I was at the age of 7?


God Almighty is Not on Trial! Only humble souls are Given grace, As to even Begin salvation...

He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble. Proverbs 3:34

You also Confirm The Truth of God's Word... (You are a Part of The Total Equation)

Human pride will be brought down, and human arrogance will be humbled. Only the LORD will be exalted on that day of judgment. Isaiah 2:11

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by Faith2011

 

How about you post some real objective evidence instead of copy/pasting random bible quotes? The bible is only proof of what people believed 2,000 years ago, and NOT that the claims in the bible are correct...hell, in many cases they're demonstrably wrong

There you go again, Spewing hate and Nonsense...

"The fool has said in his heart, There is no God"

You need to humble yourself, And ask God to Show You! That HE IS REAL!!!

Originally posted by Faith2011

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by Faith2011

 

How about you post some real objective evidence instead of copy/pasting random bible quotes? The bible is only proof of what people believed 2,000 years ago, and NOT that the claims in the bible are correct...hell, in many cases they're demonstrably wrong

There you go again, Spewing hate and Nonsense...

"The fool has said in his heart, There is no God"

You need to humble yourself, And ask God to Show You! That HE IS REAL!!!

I'm not spewing hate, I'm only asking for real objective evidence. You obviously can't provide any, which is why all you do is preach

PS: Caps lock isn't cruise control for cool, and definitely doesn't make something "real"

reply to post by Faith2011

Originally posted by Faith2011
God Almighty is Not on Trial!

...you're right. Your justification for believing whether or not such a being exists.

Only humble souls are Given grace, As to even Begin salvation...

Again, please provide some evidence or maybe some basic reasonable argument.

He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble. Proverbs 3:34

I'm not mocking. I'm being humble myself. I will only accept that which is demonstrated to me by evidence and I will humbly apologize if I find myself to be corrected on a position. Your absolute faith without reason is itself prideful and arrogant.

You also Confirm The Truth of God's Word... (You are a Part of The Total Equation)

Human pride will be brought down, and human arrogance will be humbled. Only the LORD will be exalted on that day of judgment. Isaiah 2:11

Ok, I guess this is going to be a test of how long my fingers will last before they're bloodied to the bone after all.

Why should I accept your book as anything but ignorant ramblings?

And why is somehow supposedly humble lording their humbleness over my supposed arrogance?

reply to post by MrXYZ



As I have said... "Faith" is the starting point for everyone!

Creator-God and His Word are Reality and Eternal...His Word Says It Best.

By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible.
Hebrews 11:3

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


You need a supernatural encounter with the Creator! I hope this happens...(Take Care)

NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses] Hebrews 11:1

reply to post by Faith2011


I'd love to get a christian, muslim, buddist, hindu, jew, sikh, etc in a room and listen in on what they all argue about - now that would be worth listening to. They all have faith - which one is right ?

reply to post by Faith2011

Originally posted by Faith2011
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

You need a supernatural encounter with the Creator! I hope this happens...(Take Care)

So the only proof I can have is something that is claimed by every single different religion as proving their deity is the right one? Hindus say that supernatural experiences validate their claims, as do Muslims, Jews, Christians, Sikhs, etc.

NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses] Hebrews 11:1

Faith is not proof, faith is belief without proof. You cannot take strong conviction in place of proof.

Now, in the spirit of what you said...I really hope you learn to understand rational thought.

Originally posted by Faith2011
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

As I have said... "Faith" is the starting point for everyone!

Creator-God and His Word are Reality and Eternal...His Word Says It Best.

By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible.
Hebrews 11:3

Everything you post here can be considered PREACHING...you present ZERO evidence to back up your claims, and they are therefore 100% meaningless to the discussion

Now this thread highlights a lot of reasons why there's so many problems in the world. We've esentially got two diametrically opposed viewpoint or beliefs here, god exists because i say so - and no he doesn't because i say so. Facts are both view points are wrong as both are related to subjective views about the nature of existance. Nobody "knows" if there's a creator or if the universe just came into being through random chance. On both sides it comes down to faith. Now here's the problem - faith allows ordinary people to do terrible things in the name of their belief, think islamic suicide bombers or Nazi final solution exponents.

There seems very little point in trying to persuade either camps on the foolishness of their beliefs as people in history have died time and time again for what they believe in. You guys should just accept that you really don't know.

I do favour the non believers though as they don't have such a tendency to condemn people for not following their faith and tend not to kill as many people for breaches of religious etiquette.

In my opinion this thread should be closed as all it's showing is peoples ignorance and as we all know that should be denied !!

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone

Now this thread highlights a lot of reasons why there's so many problems in the world. We've esentially got two diametrically opposed viewpoint or beliefs here, god exists because i say so - and no he doesn't because i say so. Facts are both view points are wrong as both are related to subjective views about the nature of existance.

That's simply not true

I don't claim to know if there's a god or not, but I simply don't start believing in him/her/it until someone presents objective evidence. And saying science and religion are bothed based on subjectivity is wrong too given that science follows scientific method that rejects subjectivity...

reply to post by MrXYZ


Can you scientifically prove god doesn't exist ? I can't see in my post where i said scientific method is subjective. Without all the facts how can one come to a conclusion - to know if there's a god we need to know a lot more about the universe. Hey I'm all for bashing the believers but it can't be done the way you guys are doing it. I'm more for pointing out religion (belief) kills a lot of people and causes terrible divisions in society and leads to wars and general horror. Fanatical belief's bad m'kay

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


Here's where you said science is subjective:

Facts are both view points are wrong as both are related to subjective views

And I'm not trying to disprove god, I'm saying there's no objective evidence supporting the claim he/she/it exists.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Nope you're intentionally misreading what i typed - both points of view is in regard to having "belief" about the existence of god.

You're right in saying there's no objective evidence for the existence of god ! The OP's original premise is clearly wrong in trying to use science to prove a subjective perspective.

My complaint is about the pointlessness of trying to get believers to not believe - just aint going to happen. It's like cults, you need to de-program them if possible

Question for you though - do you believe/not believe in a god or just in sciences inability to prove his/her/it's existence ?

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


Thanks for the post Hopeforeveryone:

Since MrXYZ is unable or unwilling to respond to my questions then I would like to respond to your post.

You said:

I like in your thread title you say "believe" rather than know, always an interesting semantical difference.

Thanks – I considered it very carefully because I know already the reactions of those who disagree. Imagine if I said Creation is a Fact (which it is) – any idea what will be the reaction? So it’s not just semantics.

My take on the whole philosophical concept of creation is that at some point in the way distant past something happened to cause us to exist. Now what that cause was is surely unknowable as we clearly lack the knowledge to know what that was. To ascribe that initial cause to "god" is quite usefull in that it answers the question for those willing to accept that as the answer but to me that merely raises many more question.

Part of the difficulty for some of not fully understanding Creation is the acceptance of the Bible as of divine origin - the Word of God. But once a person accepts it beyond any reasonable doubt then the whole concept of Creation becomes a reality. So it requires an honest look at both ‘ BOOKS’ – the Book of Creation and the Bible Book, they both come hand and hand – like horse and carriage. Creation explains to us the how but it can’t explain fully the WHY. SO without considering the Holy Scriptures then I must agree with your statement, that is, it “merely raises many more question.”.

In fact because of not considering what the Bible says with regards to creation many were led to believe in different ideas and from philosophies (of many sorts). You add to that the differing views in science and its promoters then the picture becomes more blurry. The “cause” as you said becomes “unknowable as we clearly lack the knowledge to know what that was.”

So ONLY by considering the Scriptures the picture comes into focus (as evidence by the OP).
As for your Qs below – I believe I’ve already answered it on page 2 but I’d like to address them further if you don’t mind.

You said:

1./ if god made everything then who made god?

A simple answer is - He Always Existed – always was. No one created him as the scriptures say. Even he himself said it – thus he’s the Beginning of All things and the Bible accurately calls him as “The King of Eternity”. To say otherwise (I.e: was created) then it becomes an unending question.
But the more important question to ask is: - Is it logical or even scientific to believe that God exist?

Let’s take logical part:

Let’s assume that the universe and the earth and life itself for that matter were not created. What’s the alternative in explaining their existence? What or who created them? The logical answer is ‘nothing’. Absolutely nothing created something. Is that logical? Both atheists and evolutionists believe and think it to be so. But put against scientific facts that belief / concept fails miserably. And all that is left to believe is their words. And since logic is not an accepted part of the equation then the confusion becomes more pronounced. Of course they will cite this and that as evidence – like fossil records, dna, c14 and others. But once you look at the evidence very carefully without any pre-conceived ideas then the evidence in support of their belief falls apart. Thus without clear logic one is left with philosophy and mere ideas. Sad part is that since man is imperfect – thus his thoughts are faulty.

On the other hand the evidence in support of (Biblical) Creation when put against science is undeniable and unmistakable. Case in point – the facts presented on this thread. No one so far has presented an argument proving them false.

Now let’s take the scientific side of the equation:

That is, is it scientific to believe in the existence of God? The answer is yes. How?

Let me please ask you these questions:

Do you believe on something that you can’t see? If you say NO, then do you believe that space has no limit? What about (again) infinity? Do you believe that it exists? Both concepts are incredibly hard to prove (even the most powerful computer is not able to calculate space and infinity) yet we accept them as facts.

There’s also the cause and effect – take gravity for example. We can’t see gravity yet we believe that it exist because we can observed its effects. Radio waves – we know it exist because we can observe its effects.

So what about God, since we can’t see him does this mean then that he doesn’t exist while the other invisible “things” exists? How so?

Is it because we can’t measure him – or some sarcastically put it – “can’t test him on a petri dish”?

But how do measure something (someone) that is infinite and outside the boundaries of time and space and matter? By what means are you going to test him “on a petri dish”? How do you measure someone who has the power to create the sun? This is where man’s wisdom comes to an end.

Yet God himself said:

“For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;” (Romans 1:20)

Also scientifically speaking, since it has been confirmed and verified that life only comes from life – how is it then that non-believers can believed the opposite? That non – life will produce life? Is this because of pre-conceived ideas or is it something else?

So from these very simple logical reasoning – we can see that it’s both logical and scientific to believe in God.

2./ If god did make the universe we can assume that he's imperfect as he's made a universe where suffering and pain is a part of existence.

On the contrary – the scriptures say that he is Perfect in ALL his ways. Jesus also confirmed this to be so.
The imperfection, suffering and death we see from time immemorial are due to man’s own doing. To make the story short, mankind basically said to his Creator to “butt out”. That is, we can live on our own without any intervention or help from him. So to prove his point – God allowed man to rule his fellowman. Now, how is it so far – is mankind successful in governing himself? The record is clear, NO – instead of real peace and security and happiness for all – man as the scripture say “dominated man to his own injury”. So however good and noble the intention is, man’s plan will fail – because we are all imperfect as a result of disobedience. But who gets blamed for all of these?

Happily though, God has allowed enuff time to accomplish his will (for those who will accept him and listen to him). Soon he will finally put an end to all of man’s misery including death. Question is will you be there when it happens?

(this is commonly answered by the notion that we don't know the will of god and thus there must be a reason for all this pain and general nastyness)

Yes of course we do know and this one of the main reasons why the Bible EXIST! His will is clearly stated in there for ALL to see – from time immemorial. This is also the reason why it survived down to our time. God saw to it that it’s available for all to see and read. So it’s not a good excuse to say that we don’t know. He has given ample time to study it- yet what does man do? Disregard it. Sad part is, because of the hypocrisy of many religious leaders including their members – many had concluded that it’s not the word of God. But again – it’s not a valid reason – because Jesus himself was killed by religious leaders yet his followers did not abandon the Word of God. And many follow his footsteps. Today, the world has been warned of coming “great tribulation”, so when it comes no one can say we didn’t know and can’t rightly blame God.

”I think it's fine to believe whatever you like as long as you don't expect others to believe it as well.

That’s the beauty of God – all powerful that he is (as the Creator of heaven and earth) he does not force anyone to obey, follow and love him. He allows us to make the decision, our own free will to know him.

For all we know we could be a hyperdimensional beings equivalent to a screensaver or maybe some guy in the future cocks up his science experiment and wipes out the universe and in doing so opens a wormhole right back to the begining of time taking the combined energy of the universe back with it - i like that one, kind of circular”

Now that syfy.

Fact is, we have a guaranty that it will exist for all eternity – since the Creator is Eternal.

Why is it not possible to consider the possibility of a creator without buying into the concept fully ?

Because it will lead you to the wrong conclusion – Creation without the Bible is an incomplete picture. Without the word of God we come up with so many incorrect “ideas”. This is the reason why I said in the beginning of the OP: “Why Biblical Creation is factually accurate – The Reality! [Because] the evidences are indisputable! Now up to you to prove if it is and believe that it is.

Ty,
edmc2

P.S.
The reason why I used science to prove creation is to answer the ridicules and belittling launched by die hard evolutionists and atheists. They keep saying that there’s no scientific proof. Now that it is presented for all to see – they came back complaining why I’m using science. But if start using or even quote the Bible to support scientific evidence then I get accused of preaching. So how do you communicate with such mentality?

reply to post by edmc^2


I really don't have a problem with some aspects of belief - the christian enlightenment of the 19th centuary led to some really positive improvements in social conditions, bans on slavery etc.

What bothers me is how christianity kept the world in the dark for centuaries, and i believe we're still getting over the hangover from this period.

A lot of terrible things are done in the name of beliefs - spanish inquistion, the Cathars, witch hunts, apocalypse cults. I don't believe you need religion to be a good person, you merely need a belief that life is intrinsically important and that harming others is wrong as you can empathise with suffering.

If there is a god then they must be indifferent to our situation, if they created us then why not build in knowledge, why not make it that children don't die from mosquito bites, why not make it that the stronger can't oppress the weaker. This God character sems to have messed up his design plans. You might argue that this is down to us having free will but do you have free will not to get cancer or be killed by natural forces.

Belief doesn't make you a good person - The catholic church has plenty of examples of sex offending priests.

I guess my main point is it's fine to believe what you want but it's how you act that is important at the end of the day and belief doesn't neccessarily guarantee that someone will do the right thing.

Thanks for going to the effort of a reply though, i do appreciate you taking the time. I have an open mind on the subject though i'm tending to favour the religion is dangerous school of thought.

Originally posted by Laokin

Can we stop having a new thread everyday screaming 100% proof, only to post opinions?

When opinions are back up with evidence then it's no longer an opinion but a fact. So IMHO only when there's no evidence to the fact then it's an opinion. But as a matter of fact the facts presented in the OP are based on facts. SO IMHO they are true.

Proof, is empirical evidence.... what you propose is circumstantial evidence... which is not proof by definition.

Proof can be based empirical evidence but it also be based on circumstantial evidence. In fact - as proof, they use it in the court of law to convict someone - circumstantial evidence that is. So IMHO proof can be both circumstantial evidence and empirical evidence.

Cool story, I'm sure you made some good points, but do you seriously not know what "proof" is?

thanks - but based on the facts, the proof is in the pudding.

ty,
edmc2

Originally posted by edmc^2
P.S.
The reason why I used science to prove creation is to answer the ridicules and belittling launched by die hard evolutionists and atheists. They keep saying that there’s no scientific proof. Now that it is presented for all to see – they came back complaining why I’m using science. But if start using or even quote the Bible to support scientific evidence then I get accused of preaching. So how do you communicate with such mentality?

This is not true. We come back complaining that you are not using science but correlation. I think that I have made it clear why I have not been convinced by your facts. This is subjective and I can fully accept that.

I can also accept that I am wrong if proper proof is shown but in this thread I have not seen proof but only what you think is undeniable proof. This is also subjective but you don't seem to want to accept that.

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


You're correct - and I do agree with what you said. In fact during my studies about the atrocities done in the name of God / religion. It made me sick.

But one thing to remember - it's not the Christianity that Jesus started that was / is responsible for these badness we've seen and continue to occur. It's Christendom who is the guilty party. They took God's word on one hand and a sword/gun on the other hand.

But as a Christian - each of us must live according to the way Jesus has instructed us to do otherwise we become one those person who he said:

“Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.” (Matthew 7:22-23)

Workers of lawlessness - in fact some of these who call themselves "Christians" are promoting the very idea that evolution is a fact.

That's the sad irony.

So your quite correct 'xept on this one - although I must say they are valid arguments.

If there is a god then they must be indifferent to our situation, if they created us then why not build in knowledge, why not make it that children don't die from mosquito bites, why not make it that the stronger can't oppress the weaker. This God character sems to have messed up his design plans. You might argue that this is down to us having free will but do you have free will not to get cancer or be killed by natural forces.

And the answers as I learned it are these:

Because of the challenged that was raised by man - that is, God has no right to rule us, there was a need to prove it. So as I already said - God allowed man to do his own will. But in so doing - creation was subjected to corruption. The result, nature became imbalance and diseases became rampant. Of course God can intervene anytime if he wanted to but because of the challenged - he chose not to. But he did not abandon us - those who are of humble hearts and willing to listen he provided a way back to him. This again is one of the reasons why the Bible exist. His wishes and his will for the good of mankind are all in there to read and to see.

I know you've heard this scripture before: John 3:16:

“16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. . .” (John 3:16)

There's a good reason for this. It's one of the ways for God to free mankind and creation itself from corruption.

here's a promised:

“3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”” (Revelation 21:3-4)


My apologies if it sounded preachy - but there's no other way to present it.

Bottom line if it's a fact the Universe and the Earth and Life itself were created then the Scriptures quoted about are definitely are true and will come true.

Otherwise the alternative is nothing.

ty,
edmc2