The Real Scientific proof of GOD

reply to post by sirnex

Do you think it's realistic to believe in something without direct evidence for it being true?

No. I'm simply sure it must be the case.

Would you accept *as truth* that of all our discussions together about the creator, that this whole time, I am the creator testing your faith in me. Perhaps I have plans for you, plans you can't even begin to imagine or comprehend until you're ready.

It would be blasphemy, or the truth and I must admit, I would be vulnerable in my hopes.




Sorry for the grandstanding.

reply to post by randyvs

No. I'm simply sure it must be the case.

How can you be so sure? You have no evidence in which to point to. No direct contact recorded and verified. No physical evidence is known to exist other than a 2,000 year old book created by a religious sect that sprang as an offshoot of a slightly older one conceived by primitive peoples who lacked modern understanding of how something as mundane as lightning or the water cycle works. These same groups of people from that time period are known to have ascribed these very well understood natural phenomena as the works of their deities worshiped in their days.

So again, I ask, how can you be so sure that the one particular primitive groups of people were the one's who "got it right"?

It would be blasphemy, or the truth and I must admit, I would be vulnerable in my hopes.

Would you require evidence of anyone who walks up to you and exclaims to be your God? Would you even know God if he was right in front of you?

I think the way God exists is completely foreign to our understanding of existence...it may be a source/frequency of some kind that sits in permanence outside of the universe, yet within a "plank" like level inclusiveness of all things. Truly something you would have to shed your body and ego to get a grasp I would assume, yet, if you were to experience it, would seem native and intrinsic.

reply to post by sirnex

Would you require evidence of anyone who walks up to you and exclaims to be your God? Would you even know God if he was right in front of you?

Evidence ? Like show me some I.D. ?
There can be no simple yes or no answers to these very good questions sirnex. I see so many variables in them.

Someone just walking up to me on the street and proclaiming to be God ? That would only be God if it were God and he was prepaired to prove it to me. God wouldn't just walk up and say I'm God believe it or go to hell. So my answer goes like this oddly enough.

No, not unless it was God. If God ever approached me ? In this mortal frame I would be obliterated. That's why he has messengers. Angels of the Lord.:

I'll try and give you a hint to what's going on here.

I have accepted ( pos. ) Jesus Christ into my open heart ( mind ).

You,( at least to my perceptions ) have rejected ( neg ) everything . Save that which can be put in front of you.

You reap what you sow. The moral is ? You can only know what you have limited yourself to knowing. Although
I could compliment your fantastic knowledge on a wide range of topics, you have limited yourself to any other possibilities. Other than 75 very quick years. The very spirit of man seems to be a joke to you..

You do have a great mind sirnex.but, are you a redneck ?
I'm kidding. Seriously sirnex, the fact that we are here puts every possibility imaginable on the table. Right in front of you.

Catch up to you again real soon ok.


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Let me open more secrets from Veda to clear the confusion.

a. God is kind, but NOT loving. God does not love any human or animal or plant. Each soul is bound to its own karma. Love is called 'moh' in Sanskrit meaning attachment. Attachment is a 'dosh' or defect of the soul. God does not have this defect.

b. God's law is 'dharm' or religion. 'Dharm' is not about a ceratin prayer or certain name of God. No. 'Dharm' tells how a man should live with respect to other man, and with respect to nature, and the punishments if he does not. These God's laws are inviolable. No man, either of terrestial or non-terrestial origin can violate God's laws.

c. God created only one race of humans on earth. God created humans on other planets, and in other star systems as well. As time went along, some of these humans developed the capability of space travel, and thus reached other planets with pre-existing civilizations.

So we have different races. But one thing should be clear. Progress in science does not make a man more powerful in the eyes of God. God has advised man to build cars, aeroplanes, and spaceships in Veda. So these things are nothing special in God's eyes. A traveller will die on a spaceship also when his time comes. The cycle of birth and death is inviolable whether you are on earth or in a spaceship.

d. The current 'science fiction' is spreading false ideas to people. One is that a person travelling faster than light (FTL) will get immortality (will not age). Well, I have news for you. It is simply false. Time does not stop for anyone. Even if a person is travelling at 50x VOL (velocity of light), he will age just as normal, and will die. Soul can travel anywhere, even to the core of a star as is not affected by heat and cold. Soul is not made of physical matter that surrounds us.

The BEST physical evidence for presence of God is DEATH.

Anybody who can refute DEATH.

reply to post by vedatruth


How is that? How does unconsciousness prove there is a god?

reply to post by Tony4211


God is always present. I am only trying to explain as per the topic. You can sure develop your case.

Originally posted by kaleshchand
I wanted to post this for some time, but did not, however now I have to, as I was asked for my proof by some people on this forum. I thank those people for asking me for proof as that gave me the push to post this thread.

When reading this thread please keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out. The scientific group will (in my opinion) be able to see where I am going with this thread. But T think I need to be ready to be flamed by the religious group.

I will not post any links in this post, because everything I state will be well known scientific facts.

So now I will get to the meat of the matter.

Definition of God
Lets face it, we cant prove/disprove something that has an unlimited number of definitions. So for this thread God will be defined by "generally accepted" qualities of God. So what are the qualities of God?

1. God has no beginning or end. (i.e. God was never "born" and can never die)
   
2. God is everywhere.
   
3. God is all powerful.
   
4. God is all knowing.
   

So we are looking for "someone" or "something" with those qualities.

The first quality. "God has no beginning or end." Think people, the first law of thermodynamics. "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms." So we can say that God is energy. Since God cannot be created nor destroyed, and neither can energy.

But it gets better. E=MC^2 that means that all mass is Energy, and what comprises ALL mass and energy? The universe (or muliverse, once proven) of course. The universe comprises of all mass and energy there is and mass is energy and energy is God, so it follows that the universe is God.

To simplify God is all matter and energy that there is. From now on I will use the word universe to describe all matter and energy that there is.


The second quality. God is everywhere. The universe is everywhere, God is everywhere, simple.

The third quality. God is all powerful. What is more powerful than the universe? nothing, because the universe compromises of everything. So universe is all powerful. and so is God.

The fourth quality. God is all knowing. Since the universe is "everything" it will mean that only the universe can know about everything, thus it is all knowing, and so is God.

Conclusion, the Universe is God, where universe is defined as "All matter and energy that there is". This definition is here for future proofing, so that it will automatically include multiverses, parallel universes, or any other universes that are discovered.

What a rediculous post. You just said "so we can say energy is god". And we can also say energy is energy....not god. So basically you;re getting scientific facts and twisting it with god? So you dont really know then do you? Not proof at all.

I'd say knowledge and insight is proof of God. Because of that they say God is allknowing. He knows it all. It's one of the things you can worship Him for. God, you are forgiving. The possibility of forgiveness is proof of God. Love is God. Y ou get the point. All things scientifically unexplained is God

Lovescience.

reply to post by etherical waterwave

All things scientifically unexplained is God

Good point you have there. All things scientifically unexplained is god, I like it! Throughout history, our understanding of the world around us has become more and more clear, with each passing century. Meaning that we were making more and more discoveries. Which means! haha That we have explained more, scientifically, correct? If that is true, which it is, that would mean that god (the "scientifically unexplained") will become smaller and more insignificant as time and discoveries go on. There will be a day when all the stories, will become stories of the past.

dear kaleshchand,

God is everywhere but is not matter. Genesis1;1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God created the heavens and the earth. God is not this. Further in the bible I have read God is Love, spirit and light. You do a good job at acknowledging his existance.

reply to post by etherical waterwave


Some people believe that Jesus travelled to India, and got Vedic ideas from there. It is quite possible, as there was heavy trade between India and West Asia at that time. Caravan of camels and horses regularly traversed land routes that landed either in the area of Kabul & Peshawar - if through Assyria, Persia, and Afghanistan - (near Taxshila University) or in Sindhu (close to Karachi) if following the sea coast.

Eastern Afghanistan was in the kingdom of 'Gandhar' that was a Hindu kingdom, and included cities of Kabul, Kandahar, and Peshawar.

---------
There is one critical difference between Bible and Veda - Veda says God's justice is 'natural' and 'automatic', so forgiveness is not possible. Each soul has to face its karma.

God can be said kind and loving depends on interpretation. God is kind because the Creation (earth, sun. moon. human bodies) is for souls. The earth has been made full of precious objects for the use of man. God has given man the knowledge of science, agriculture etc. out of kindness so that man can create a just and plentiful society. All God asks in return is to follow His rules.

Originally posted by kaleshchand
I wanted to post this for some time, but did not, however now I have to, as I was asked for my proof by some people on this forum. I thank those people for asking me for proof as that gave me the push to post this thread.

When reading this thread please keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out. The scientific group will (in my opinion) be able to see where I am going with this thread. But T think I need to be ready to be flamed by the religious group.

I will not post any links in this post, because everything I state will be well known scientific facts.

So now I will get to the meat of the matter.

Definition of God
Lets face it, we cant prove/disprove something that has an unlimited number of definitions. So for this thread God will be defined by "generally accepted" qualities of God. So what are the qualities of God?

1. God has no beginning or end. (i.e. God was never "born" and can never die)
   
2. God is everywhere.
   
3. God is all powerful.
   
4. God is all knowing.
   

So we are looking for "someone" or "something" with those qualities.

The first quality. "God has no beginning or end." Think people, the first law of thermodynamics. "Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only change forms." So we can say that God is energy. Since God cannot be created nor destroyed, and neither can energy.

But it gets better. E=MC^2 that means that all mass is Energy, and what comprises ALL mass and energy? The universe (or muliverse, once proven) of course. The universe comprises of all mass and energy there is and mass is energy and energy is God, so it follows that the universe is God.

To simplify God is all matter and energy that there is. From now on I will use the word universe to describe all matter and energy that there is.


The second quality. God is everywhere. The universe is everywhere, God is everywhere, simple.

The third quality. God is all powerful. What is more powerful than the universe? nothing, because the universe compromises of everything. So universe is all powerful. and so is God.

The fourth quality. God is all knowing. Since the universe is "everything" it will mean that only the universe can know about everything, thus it is all knowing, and so is God.

Conclusion, the Universe is God, where universe is defined as "All matter and energy that there is". This definition is here for future proofing, so that it will automatically include multiverses, parallel universes, or any other universes that are discovered.

I can play this game too. Let's say I state the propositions:
1. God is all powerful.
2. God is wholly good.
3. Evil exists.

No two of these can be true without invalidating the third.

Let's say that God is wholly good and evil exists, which appears to fit with your own belief system. In this case there is a logical disconnect with the fact that God is all powerful because it would imply that God wishes to eliminate evil(being wholly good and all) and evil evidently exists, so in this case the only explanation is that God is not all powerful. P. 2 and 3 invalidate 1.

Now let's say that God is in fact all powerful, well in this case evil should not exist because evil is evident and God has the ability to eliminate it, the only explanation is that God chooses not to eliminate evil; thus he is not benevolent. P. 1 and 3 invalidate 2.

Finally, let's say that God is both wholly good and wholly powerful, which you appear to be proposing, in this case your only reprieve would be to prove that evil does not exist or that it is only an illusion, which I think you'll find quite difficult. P. 1 and 2 invalidate 3.

This argument is "Mackie's Problem of Evil", I've just tried to modify/simplify it. I'm not saying that my argument definitively disproves the existence of God, but neither does yours. It's just fancy wordplay, trying to define God into/out of existence. These arguments while interesting aren't very effective because they still lack evidentiary proof.

Also, your argument isn't scientific at all, it's what might be called a metaphysical proof, albeit not a very good one.

The rule of good and evil, what may be called the rule of reciprocity or solidarity, cannot be applied to a man's to personal conduct towards himself. Does he find, in natural law, the rule of that conduct, and a safe guide?

"When you eat too much, it hurts you. God gives you, in the discomfort thus produced, the measure of what is necessary for you. When you exceed that measure, you are punished. It is the same with everything else. Natural law traces out for each man the limit of his needs; when he oversteps that limit he is punished by the suffering thus caused. If men gave heed, in all things, to the voice which says to them 'enough!' they would avoid the greater part of the ills of which they accuse nature."

Why does evil exist in the nature of things? I speak of moral evil. Could not God have created the human race in more favorable conditions?

"We have already told you that spirits are created simple and ignorant. God leaves man free to choose his road; so much the worse for him if he takes the wrong one; his pilgrimage will be all the longer. If there were no mountains, man could not comprehend the possibility of ascending and descending; if there were no rocks, he could not understand that there are such things as hard bodies. It is necessary for the spirit to acquire experience; and, to that end, he must know both good and evil. It is for this purpose that souls are united to bodies."

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
The rule of good and evil, what may be called the rule of reciprocity or solidarity, cannot be applied to a man's to personal conduct towards himself. Does he find, in natural law, the rule of that conduct, and a safe guide?

"When you eat too much, it hurts you. God gives you, in the discomfort thus produced, the measure of what is necessary for you. When you exceed that measure, you are punished. It is the same with everything else. Natural law traces out for each man the limit of his needs; when he oversteps that limit he is punished by the suffering thus caused. If men gave heed, in all things, to the voice which says to them 'enough!' they would avoid the greater part of the ills of which they accuse nature."

Why does evil exist in the nature of things? I speak of moral evil. Could not God have created the human race in more favorable conditions?

"We have already told you that spirits are created simple and ignorant. God leaves man free to choose his road; so much the worse for him if he takes the wrong one; his pilgrimage will be all the longer. If there were no mountains, man could not comprehend the possibility of ascending and descending; if there were no rocks, he could not understand that there are such things as hard bodies. It is necessary for the spirit to acquire experience; and, to that end, he must know both good and evil. It is for this purpose that souls are united to bodies."

edit on 2-10-2011 by Shadow Herder because: (no reason given)

Why do I feel like brad Pitt is auditioning for a role of a preacher ?

Sorry bud...but no offense this stuff seems like copy and paste..

It was and disprove it.

Read, entertain the ideas. Dismissing will be your loss and to the ones around you.

Originally posted by Shadow Herder
It was and disprove it.

Read, entertain the ideas. Dismissing will be your loss and to the ones around you.

I have entertained the ideas before.. and still do..from different angles..

You should not assume I dismiss them because I feel they are copy and paste....merely commenting on their robotic preacher style deliverance.

I'm happy to hear they are copy and paste..I think you could do much better with your own thoughts.

reply to post by Tetrarch42


a. God is all powerful - TRUE
b. Evil exists - TRUE
c. God wants to eliminate evil - FALSE

Why (c) is false? Because God has given freedom of action to humans (souls when they take human body).

Why is it so? Because God wanted to give an opportunity to the soul to cleanse itself of all the sins that the soul did in previous lives.

The freedom of action cuts both ways - a soul can become pious, or evil depending upons what it loves - God or material wealth. Each soul has to choose between these two.

Evil becomes wealthy - by stealing from others. It is a fact of life. God says - do not steal.

So a wealthy man is rarely close to God.

Veda says to Brahmin and the King - live like ascetics. Do not get corrupted by wealth.

Originally posted by vedatruth
reply to post by Tetrarch42

 

a. God is all powerful - TRUE
b. Evil exists - TRUE
c. God wants to eliminate evil - FALSE

Why (c) is false? Because God has given freedom of action to humans (souls when they take human body).

Why is it so? Because God wanted to give an opportunity to the soul to cleanse itself of all the sins that the soul did in previous lives.

The freedom of action cuts both ways - a soul can become pious, or evil depending upons what it loves - God or material wealth. Each soul has to choose between these two.

Evil becomes wealthy - by stealing from others. It is a fact of life. God says - do not steal.

So a wealthy man is rarely close to God.

Veda says to Brahmin and the King - live like ascetics. Do not get corrupted by wealth.

Worldly grandeur, and authority over our fellow-creatures, are trials as great and as slippery as misfortune: for the richer and more powerful we are, the more obligations we have to fulfill, and the greater are our means of doing both good and evil. God tries the poor through resignation, and the rich through the use he makes, of his wealth and power.

Riches and power give birth to all the passions that attach us to matter, and keep us at a distance from spiritual perfection: this is why Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to pass through the needle's eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.