Our Hearts and Brains Emit Energy Fields

reply to post by sirnex


So your believe that because it's physics...

...that the information is somehow physically connected to what it describes...

Originally posted by sirnex
UGH! Did you read the link?

Also, your link has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.

The link is about the concept of information in the subject of physics.

The discussion is about information physically represented in reality by words or numbers, it doesn't matter what the subject is.

reply to post by Jezus

The discussion is about information physically represented in reality by words or numbers, it doesn't matter what the subject is.

Your missing the point entirely. The experiment is not one of squiggly lines and the abstract information those squiggly lines represent. There are no quantum physic experiments dealing with the written works of Shakespeare. Read up more on the experiment and tell me if that's still what you think it's about.

Originally posted by Jezus
reply to post by sirnex

 

So your believe that because it's physics...

...that the information is somehow physically connected to what it describes...

Information in physics is just another way to say this particle has different properties than this particle, or this interaction is different than that interaction.

The information your hung up on is the pretty squiggly lines that say this thing is an atom and this atom is a hydrogen atom because we define it as such. That type of information does not exist in reality itself for that particular thing. That's called abstract information. Our pretty squiggly lines the define things in a more meaningful manner simply do not exist all on their own.

You can call that hydrogen atom a tree for instance. It's an entirely different set of squiggly lines, but as long as we both agree that the grouping of letter in tree represent that thing, then that's what that thing is to us. What we call it, how we define it, how we represent it never changes it's actual physical information or properties if you will.

Originally posted by sirnex
The information your hung up on is the pretty squiggly lines that say this thing is an atom and this atom is a hydrogen atom because we define it as such. That type of information does not exist in reality itself for that particular thing. That's called abstract information...

What we call it, how we define it, how we represent it never changes it's actual physical information or properties if you will.

Okay...so you seem to understand this concept because you are explaining it back to me.

Now just take it one step further.

Deleting the measurement effects the results of the experiment.

Deleting squiggly lines (raw abstract inherently meaningless information)...

...changes the physical observable results of the experiment.


So what is the ONLY connection between the abstract information and the concrete results?

Consciousness.

reply to post by Jezus

Deleting squiggly lines (raw abstract inherently meaningless information)...

...changes the physical observable results of the experiment.

That's not what is occurring here. You won't find that in the experimental setup. There is no step that says run experiment once, print results, white out certain sections of results, run experiment again and get an entirely new set of results. All the while, no where in the setup or experiment, or even the mythical white out results process does the mind have a direct physical sans body role.

Find a scientific article that explains the process scientifically in laymans terms. I've seen one before a while back ago so I know they do indeed exist.

Originally posted by sirnex
That's not what is occurring here.

Yes it is. Deal with it.

Originally posted by sirnex
There is no step that says run experiment once, print results, white out certain sections of results, run experiment again and get an entirely new set of results.

Your analogy is wrong. You white out the data and look back at the results of the physically complete experiment.

Do experiment + don't measure slit = wave function
Do experiment + measure slit = wave function collapses

Do experiment + measure slit + delete information = wave function

Originally posted by sirnex
All the while, no where in the setup or experiment, or even the mythical white out results process does the mind have a direct physical sans body role.

This doesn't even make any sense...

The consciousness factor comes from comprehending the significance of deleting raw abstract data and it changing the experimental results of a physically complete experiment.

reply to post by Jezus

Yes it is. Deal with it.

WTF??? No it's not! Read the damn experiments steps.

Your analogy is wrong. You white out the data and look back at the results of the physically complete experiment.

Do experiment + don't measure slit = wave function
Do experiment + measure slit = wave function collapses

Do experiment + measure slit + delete information = wave function

Read up on the experiment some more. No human mind physically deletes anything. Everything that happens, happens within the experimental setup. The only thing we see at the end is the results, the final conclusion at the utter completion of every event that takes place within the experiment. No one is whiting out the printed results and seeing different results printed out the next time. That IS NOT what happens!

This doesn't even make any sense...

The consciousness factor comes from comprehending the significance of deleting raw abstract data and it changing the experimental results of a physically complete experiment.

God damn... You don't even make any sense! You have this erroneous notion that we're doing the deletion process intentionally. We're not, everything that occurs happens within the experiment. We see the final results ONLY.

Originally posted by sirnex
God damn... You don't even make any sense! You have this erroneous notion that we're doing the deletion process intentionally.

Of course it is intentionally...

It was purposely designed that way.

You have this erroneous notion that the mind has to be built into the experiment in order for it to be a factor. (even though the human mind is already part of the experiment inherently)

This actual deletion process is not the point. The point is removing raw information from reality effects the physical results of a complete experiment.

---

Also, they have done this same experiment where the results are sent to a politician miles a away in envelopes. He randomly destroys one of the envelopes and it has the same effect.

So your wrong.

reply to post by Jezus

Of course it is intentionally...

It was purposely designed that way.

You have this erroneous notion that the mind has to be built into the experiment in order for it to be a factor. (even though the human mind is already part of the experiment inherently)

OK, I think your not understanding what a physics experiment is. A physics experiment is an experiment that helps us understand how things work, in the case of this experiment it tells us how subatomic particles behave and how they behave differently than macroscopic objects. What this experiment was not setup to do or show nor does show is that the human mind affects reality. This was never it's intention and never shown or implied in it's results. This aspect is something you've heard from a sensationalized media source. It DOES NOT EXIST in the science itself.

This actual deletion process is not the point. The point is removing raw information from reality effects the physical results of a complete experiment.

Read the damn experiments setup again, explain it step by step to me.

Also, they have done this same experiment where the results are sent to a politician miles a away in envelopes. He randomly destroys one of the envelopes and it has the same effect.

So your wrong.

No, I'm not wrong. You can't understand simple English, that's the issue here. Well, no... You can understand simple English, but your getting your information from sensationalized bullcrap instead of from the science itself. That's the real issue here.

Originally posted by sirnex
What this experiment was not setup to do or show nor does show is that the human mind affects reality. This was never it's intention and never shown or implied in it's results.

What the experiment was setup to do is irrelevant.

Use your brain to interpret the results.

Deleting raw abstract information changes the physical results of an experiment.

1. The data is somehow connected to the physical reality it describes (wrong)
2. consciousness is a factor (undeniable)

Originally posted by sirnex
No, I'm not wrong.

You are simply refusing to accept the experimental results...

Originally posted by sirnex
You can't understand simple English, that's the issue here. Well, no... You can understand simple English, but your getting your information from sensationalized bullcrap instead of from the science itself. That's the real issue here.

You are making this vague statements without dealing with the experimental results...

Do experiment + don't measure slit = wave function
Do experiment + measure slit = wave function collapses

Do experiment + measure slit + delete information = wave function

Originally posted by Jezus
This is the experiment the proves measuring is not what collapses the wave function.

The availability of information to a conscious observer collapse the wave function.

A Double-Slit Quantum Eraser Experiment
grad.physics.sunysb.edu...

"This experiment uses the phenomena of interference, produced by light incident on a double slit, to investigate the quantum mechanical principle of complementarity between the wave and particle characteristics of light. Using a special state of light, Walborn and his coworkers created an interference pattern, made a "which-way" measurement which destroyed the interference, and then erased the "which-way" marker, bringing the interference back. This experiment clearly displays the way in which nature is counterintuitive on the quantum scale and makes it clear that our ways of thinking based on our everyday experiences in the classical world are often completely inadequate to understand the quantum world."


Delayed Erasure

"Next the erasure measurement is performed. Before photon p can encounter the polarizer, s will be detected. Yet it is found that the interference pattern is still restored. It seems photon s knows the "which-way" marker has been erased and that the interference behavior should be present again, without a secret signal from photon p. "

reply to post by Jezus


Just wanted to do a bit of cheer-leading here and commend you on your efforts of educating the depraved.

I know it's not easy when the person you're responding to is constantly deferring to emotional language and posting things like

Originally posted by sirnex
God damn... You don't even make any sense!

All that's being pointed out is that the human mind is an integral part of the experimental process, ie the experimental process wouldn't even exist without the human mind, and yet you are facing a person who wants to deprive themselves of whatever the human mind can actually accomplish and ignore its demonstrated effects, all in the name of an archaic materialist zealousness.


I would be pointing it in post after post too if Sirnex hadn't started ignoring me early on for me asking him for sources for his claims. So he showed then and there that he isn't really interested in science, only in what he already believes, and you just have to take his word for it or else he throws a temper tantrum, kind of like he is doing now by refusing to acknowledge the importance of human intelligence throughout the whole experimental process.


Anyway I just thought it would be warranted to break up all the gray, black and white, with a little blue. Carry on....

reply to post by Jezus

What the experiment was setup to do is irrelevant.

And that's all I need to know. You're saying you simply do not care what the experiment is about, period. You don't care about the science of the physics it was trying to discover. In that case there is no point in continuing, you've deemed it utterly irrelevant.

Originally posted by sirnex

What the experiment was setup to do is irrelevant.

And that's all I need to know. You're saying you simply do not care what the experiment is about, period.

Aww come on Sirnex, you're just looking for any way out of the debate at this point because you know you have no case.

What the experiment was set up to prove does not mean any other results than those expected are automatically null and void. That's why you do experiments in the first place, to test ideas, and compare them to how reality actually works.


You don't care about actual science and physics, and you demonstrated this the minute you started ignoring me for asking you for sources! Instead you threw a bunch of temper tantrums and started ignoring me.


Why don't you just go ahead and found your own religion where materialism rules and you can freely spend your time mocking people who are actually up-to-date with scientific advancements? That will at least put you into the proper category of religion, where you can stop pretending to be using anything related to logic or science, because you're not, and never were.

reply to post by bsbray11

You don't care about actual science and physics, and you demonstrated this the minute you started ignoring me for asking you for sources! Instead you threw a bunch of temper tantrums and started ignoring me.

Why lie? Does it make you feel better about yourself? I did indeed post a few links here and there, in reply to you and to others. Unless you have a mod account or are close friends with a mod and have had my posts edited (have not checked) then those links are still there for anyone to go back and verify that you are just lying about that aspect. The reason I decided to ignore you was because of your many deflections and straw man arguments about hands and arms, also completely explained in one of my posts as the reason for ignoring you.

So why lie? It accomplishes nothing else than for you to establish what kind of person you are to others who have been keeping pace with this discussion.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by Jezus

 

What the experiment was setup to do is irrelevant.

And that's all I need to know. You're saying you simply do not care what the experiment is about, period. You don't care about the science of the physics it was trying to discover. In that case there is no point in continuing, you've deemed it utterly irrelevant.

bsbray11 already said this...but it completely ridiculous to say that an experiment can only discover what the experimenters set out to discover...

This was never about the science anyway...this is about you inability to deal with the implications of the experiment.

Rationalize it any way you want but deleting the data changed the experimental results.

Measurement does not collapse the wave function, the availability of information to a conscious observer does.

Consciousness is a factor...it isn't that big a deal...

reply to post by bsbray11


Speaking of electromagnetism, the sun and all - have I mentioned the established link between strokes and heart attacks and the sun's low frequency emissions before and after solar storms? ...It's real - and it wouldn't happen if our cells and systems weren't all about frequency.



[Just tryin' to get this thread back on a better track. ]

reply to post by sirnex


Why lie? Are you asking yourself that?


Here are the sources I asked for, and never received:

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by sirnex
Nor does the mind have a DIRECT PHYSICAL influence upon the experiments involved.

Source?

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by sirnex
The EM fields generated by the human body have no appreciable affect upon the planets magnetic field as asserted by the OP

Do you have evidence for this, too?

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by sirnex
The EM fields generated by the human body in no way have any affect upon the Earth's magnetic field.

Again you make a statement with no proof. This is argument from ignorance. Do you have scientific papers to validate this claim?

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by sirnex
The fact remains that independent analysis did not observe any statistical anomalies at all. Again, argument from authority in conjunction with confirmation bias.

What "independent analysis" are you talking about? Why do you never give sources when you make claims? Do you think you're the only source that you or anyone else needs?

Originally posted by sirnex
The common definition of connected implies two things being joined together.

Again, source? Post a dictionary definition and do yourself in. You make a lousy dictionary.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by sirnex
You don't reach some amazing enlightenment and knowledge or any of the other new age concept associated with higher consciousness.

Spoken by a true authority on hard limitations of consciousness and knowledge.

How many months did you spend meditating in the mountains before you came to that final conclusion? Let me guess, you have a link to a scientific study to back that up, too?

Originally posted by sirnex
And yes, our senses can be deceived, but this is more of a how information gets processed issue than it is one of ZOMG I CHANGED REALITY!!!1oneone!1

Should I take this as another unsupported claim of yours, that humans can't change reality now either?

Instead of ever giving sources for any of those, you threw temper tantrums and started ignoring me.


You can still post sources for these claims unless you'd rather continue with your troll fit.



Here are the things you got dead wrong:

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by sirnex
The universe doesn't give a rats bottom what we call it, how we measure it, how we define it, how we objectify it, or if we even exist period.

Considering that humans themselves are inherently part of the universe already, this statement is demonstrably false.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by sirnex
Science is not a new age thing mind you, and never should we look towards new age sources as sources of scientific information.

This is a dogmatic belief that contradicts science itself.

It's not a scientific opinion to say we should avoid studying all of these subjects just because you've formed a pre-conceived idea that there is nothing to it.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by sirnex
Point is, if human hormones could affect planetary magnetic fields, we'd know about it by now.

That's funny because the same argument was made against Copernicus in his day.

It's also a fallacy akin to appeal to antiquity, and has nothing to do with logical reasoning. For all you cry about people posting stuff without proof, you must be the king of doing exactly that.

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by sirnex
...it is also true that the electromagnetic field that barely penetrates outside the human body has no physical affect upon anything nor is controllable to any degree

"no physical affect upon anything"

Wrong, because it controls the function of my muscles.

"nor is controllable to any degree"

Wrong, because I can control it, to control the function of my muscles.

And that doesn't necessarily mean its usefulness stops there, and of course the human EM field is responsible for more than that. So any claims that that's all it can do, would need scientific validation.

Originally posted by soficrow
Speaking of electromagnetism, the sun and all - have I mentioned the established link between strokes and heart attacks and the sun's low frequency emissions before and after solar storms? ...It's real - and it wouldn't happen if our cells and systems weren't all about frequency.

That's the first I've heard of this, but it would just go to show that yes, there is a real, physical connection between the Sun (or any given star) and humans. That connection might lose relevance with distance, just as gravity does, but it would be wrong to say that other stars' gravitational pulls don't also exist. I remember a certain someone in this thread trying to mock us all earlier by talking about how we aren't physically connected to stars in any way and etc. Everything influences everything as far as I can tell, and until otherwise is proven to me.

Double post, oops.


Might as well make the best of it.


I'm sure Sirnex will love this video.