Freemasons - I have a few questions.

We're called the Red Lodge as we wear Red Jackets and our aprons are bordered with Red.

Red is an ancient symbol of fervency and zeal, which is one of the core teachings of the Royal Arch and its associated degrees.

Originally posted by KSigMason
We're called the Red Lodge as we wear Red Jackets and our aprons are bordered with Red.

Red is an ancient symbol of fervency and zeal, which is one of the core teachings of the Royal Arch and its associated degrees.

edit on 12-7-2011 by KSigMason because: (no reason given)

interesting. I consider fervency and zeal to be both the most negative characteristics a man can have. I GUESS the York Rite ain't for me then.

reply to post by fordrew


I think that requires further explanation?

How can fervency and zeal be negative attributes?

Do you prefer sedentation and sloth?

When one is fervent, they block out any other feelings and opinions that another person may have on the same subject or idea. They are blinded by their own love of that subject or idea to such an extent that they would resort to abandoning everything else that the person seems to have held important. They would go in such a way as to belittle the other person for having a different opinion, ad hominem, and various name calling for not having the same views as the other person. Real fervent people would incite violence against those who don't have the same ideas and would die for that idea.

same deal with zeal. A real zealous person is blinded by his love for an idea, person, place, thing that nothing else matters to him and it is on his mind 24/7. A zealous man would readily and openly die for his cause. All other opinions and ideas are not considered by the zealous man.

In short, being blind and creating a rift between peoples is why I dislike fervency and zeal.

reply to post by fordrew


What you describe as negative isn't the fervancy and zeal though. It is the militant, or closed-mindedness that causes the rift. One can be fervant and zealous, and still be open-minded. I can see your point, and all too often, you are correct, and being passionate about something closes one's mind to other possibilities. In fact, I think that could be the root of all strife in the world! Jealousy in relationships, fanaticism in religion, etc., etc.

Still, I don't believe it is a cause and effect relationship between fervor and fanatacism.

I don't believe the world could have progressed anywhere near where it is today without the fervor and zeal of mankind through history.

You may have fallen victim to your own description. Your mind may be closed to those passionate people that are still able to listen, converse, debate, and have their opinions swayed or their knowledge increased. One can be fervant and zealous, and still open-minded, and curious, and honest, and of high integrity. Those are the very people that we admire and struggle to emulate. Those are the people that change the world!

Originally posted by no1smootha

York rite and Scottish Rite appendent bodies are both referred to as "Red Lodges" as I recall. I am in a hurry and don't have time to verify and source.

Normally, "Red Lodge" is used to describe continental, French-origin Masonry. The term is rarely used in the United States, but often refers to the Rites of Memphis and Mitzraim.

Royal Arch Masonry is not accurately described as "Red Lodge", because the work takes place in a Chapter, not a Lodge. The Lodge of Perfection of the Scottish Rite is technically "Red Lodge", but is rarely called that.

reply to post by getreadyalready


See, that's the thing. Fervent, zealous people tend to be close minded, at least in my generalizations. It is hard for me to think there are open minded fervent, zealous people by the very definition of those words.

But I think all people are guilty of this, including myself. I am a hypocrite. When someone makes a pretty boneheaded accusation on the SS forums, I know the first thing that goes through my mind is, "I wonder which other idiot swayed him to believe that?" And it goes the other way around too, he would think the same about us.

Or maybe my definition of fervency and zeal are misconstrued. They are strong words for me. When I think of those words they give me the impression of extremeness and total devotion.

reply to post by fordrew


I guess when we deal with words, we are limited by their meanings.

An awful lot of the time, people that are described as "zealous" might be those fanatical people that are close-minded, and militant in their views, and quick to attack someone who disagrees. But is that the correct definition or use of the word? I think not. I think we could describe those negative aspects of that person or personality type without using the terms fervor of zealous. It is a shame that it is often lumped together. Even the term "passion" can be construed to be very positive and romantic, or very negative and stalkerish.

reply to post by getreadyalready


OK, I see what you mean now. The passion example made lots of stuff in my head click.

reply to post by fordrew

Remember the 1st degree lecture though. That of chalk, charcoal, and clay (or mother earth). I find the Royal Arch to be an interesting and fascinating degree as it really completes the degrees of Craft Masonry.

reply to post by fordrew

Fervency: Fervor; intensity of feeling or expression; enthusiasm.

Zeal: Eagerness and ardent (passionate) interest in pursuit of something. It is also synonymous with fervor

I would say that these things combined with the other lessons explained in the 1st degree (particularly those of the 4 Cardinal Virtues).

reply to post by KSigMason


And two bits from the EA charge:

There are three great duties which, as a Mason, you are charged to inculcate--to God, your neighbor, and yourself. To God, in never mentioning His name, but with that reverential awe, which is due from a creature to his Creator; to implore His aid in all your laudable undertakings, and to esteem Him as the chief good. To your neighbor, in acting upon the square, doing unto him as you wish he should do unto you; and to yourself, in avoiding all irregularity and intemperance, which may impair your faculties, or debase the dignity of your profession. A zealous attachment to these duties will insure public and private esteem.

and later

…neither are you to suffer your zeal for the institution to lead you into argument with those who, through ignorance, may ridicule it.

So good to have zeal, but try to temper it if it may cause conflict with others.

reply to post by fordrew


As you are a Master Mason in New Jersey I am fairly certain you heard this in your Master Mason Charge:

Brother X, your ZEAL for the Institution of Freemasonry...

and later:

Universal benevolence you are to ZEALOUSLY inculcate...

reply to post by JoshNorton


reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Right, I was fully aware of the terms being in both charges before posting. I am not saying there are varying degrees of zeal and fervor, because there are. I need some more time to think about it, but I still think zealous and fervent people tend to be as described in the above post. I have love for the fraternity and defend it if I can, but can I say I do it with zeal and fervor? ...

reply to post by fordrew


Sadly, can we say we do anything with Zeal and Fervor. Even my love-making lately has been less zealous than I am comfortable with.

I admire those traits in others, because I think they are quickly becoming rare. In fact, I have more respect for the fanatics than I do the moderates in most things. We are far too comfortable with compromise these days.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Oh lord, what is this world coming to!

reply to post by Masonic Light


Interesting, by that definition even the first three degrees of my Lodge would be considered "Red Degrees"

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Even my love-making lately has been less zealous than I am comfortable with.

Networkdude likes to be wined and dined.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Your explanation sheds light on why there is a different story of the demise of the 3 R in the 9th degree of AASR than at the conclusion of the 3rd degree in Blue Lodge.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by getreadyalready
Even my love-making lately has been less zealous than I am comfortable with.

Networkdude likes to be wined and dined.

just because we live in the south, doesn't mean we all go for that kind of stuff. You do know Deliverance was just a movie right?

Originally posted by network dude
just because we live in the south, doesn't mean we all go for that kind of stuff. You do know Deliverance was just a movie right?

But you told me you saw that in Sex Ed class.......