Quran says Allah/God gave the Holy Land to Israel?

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
The scriptures were given and inspired by God. If anything in them is false, God is a liar. This is true for all three middle eastern faiths.

All things are inspired by God my friend. All things. What was inspired for yesterday must give way for what is inspired for today.

No, not all things are inspired by God.

And anything inspired by God does not give way. His word is eternal.

The truth is clear throughout the scriptures. The New falls perfectly in line with the old.

If you disagree, please give evidence of such?

Shall I copy and paste the Sermon on the mount for you?

. . .

No. I know it quite well.

I am curious as to which part you think Jesus says the Tanakh is wrong.

Originally posted by Maymunah


. . .

Are you Muslim? If you are Alhamdulilah. If you are not; then you cannot possibly put belief or faith into one area of the Surah, without believing ALL of the Quran, unless you are just looking for a reason to debate

I am not Muslim, Jewish, or Christian.

I follow God and His word.

In fact, I believe He has lead me to this subject to study the Quran. I have read the first couple of chapters this morning. I just joined a discussion board on another site to ask questions about what I have read.

This thread was not meant for debate at all, but to show that the certain sections of the Muslim faith claim to be following the Quran, but are, in fact, going against the words of Allah. This is not to say that Jews or Christians do not do the same thing.

I just found it surprising when I read that.

God gave the Land to "Israel" or the Jewish? Because one is a race, one is a Religion, same for Palestinians and Muslims. There are many Palestinians who are not Muslims and many Israelis who are not Jewish. I have studied the Palestinians for about 7 years now and you might be surprised as to just "who" they are.

The scriptures say that the land that Israel is on now belongs to Isaac, ergo Israel, ergo Judah . . . which is what we call Jews today. The lands from the Jordan to the Euphrates is the land that was given to Ishmael. This is backed up by the Torah, Tanakh, and Quran.

I surely hope you are not going to go off on the Ashkenazi Jewish rabbit trail.

Since you seem to be a practicing Muslim, I would love to hear more about your faith.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
No, not all things are inspired by God.

And anything inspired by God does not give way. His word is eternal.

Really? Then we are servents of a different God. My God is the omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient creator of all there is. My God IS the inspiration for all things, even your image of a lesser God for he gives what one asks for.

Keep your lesser God my friend. The lesser can never be the greater.

As for his word being eternal, if by that you mean the words written in the Bible, then you are in ere. For those words to be eternal, they must have been in the beginning of all things, and still be present at the end of all things. Those words written in the pages of your false idol, the Bible, are not eternal. They are an understanding for a time. At the end of their time they will be tossed into the bottomless pit of forgotten time like many other cultures in the past.

There is a new Torah coming and it is written in the hearts of Man at birth. Love one another.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
No. I know it quite well.

I am curious as to which part you think Jesus says the Tanakh is wrong.

If you cannot see when the words are plainly written, then why would you hear when the words are plainly said? I will just have to take it that you are not meant to hear or see until such time as the father of all decides to reveal the truth to you. Such a time comes when one submits to his will and obeys his law to love one another.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


No I'm not going to go off on the Ashkenazi Jewish rabbit trail...if that's what you think I was referring to regarding the true Palestinians? No, not at all.

When I look at the entire history that I know of, up until now between Israel and Palestine, I don't see it as a "Religious" war, I see it as a war between two tribes who believe the land is theirs. Some"Jews" along with Israel had dispersed out of the nation (into other nations) and came back to find it scattered or "occupied" with a people whom they wanted out, these people are known today as the Palestinians, a name which goes back to like 1923 or 22, British Mandate. Imagine leaving your homeland, or being ushered out, and generations later your childrens children return to find there are people there, who are they? How did they get there? And rather than finding out and/or living side by side with them, thus began the battle for Israel/Palestine. I've also studied BOTH sides and keep up to date as much as I can with what continues...I've come to the conclusion they are brother, fighting brother, some say no, they are cousins, nevertheless...they are related, this I firmly believe and it has to do with land and with prophecy.

Yes I am a Muslim by reversion or conversion from Christianity. And I believe ALL 3 of God's Books. I'm new to Islam so of course I am not as astute as a born and raised Muslim, but my husband is, so if you have any questions message me or ask me here is fine and I will do the best to get the answer for you.

Nevertheless...I think you are on the right path with this discussion I just hate to see it turn anti this or that

reply to post by IAMIAM


Not to stick my nose in. But maybe the person is in search of God. I'm not knocking at you, but when I see people who appear to know God, by the very spirit inside them and you or I know THE God and do not help them, guide them or point them in the right direction (even if they reject it) Isn't it the duty of those with Truth, to give it? I always feel that God, in the end will want to know what we did with what He gave us, did we double it, triple it, or refuse to spend any.

I put this on another thread..Its in the New Testament or New Covenant.

Romans 2: 11

For there is no respect of persons with God.

Meaning God does not discriminate no matter who you are.

Or that is the way I interpret it.

Originally posted by Maymunah
Not to stick my nose in. But maybe the person is in search of God. I'm not knocking at you, but when I see people who appear to know God, by the very spirit inside them and you or I know THE God and do not help them, guide them or point them in the right direction (even if they reject it) Isn't it the duty of those with Truth, to give it? I always feel that God, in the end will want to know what we did with what He gave us, did we double it, triple it, or refuse to spend any.

You are absolutely correct my friend. When someone is in search of God, we should do our best to guide them to the divinity within them, that they may see the divinity in all. However, when someone already has an image of God, and it is neither within them nor within others, stay out of their way or they will burn you at the stake for their false deity. It is God's place to smash false idols, not mine.

Now we are entering the time when God himself is moving mountains to smash false idols. Whether it be false idols of material wealth, power, or ideology, they will fall. Stay out of the way of the raining debris.



With Love,

Your Brother

Reply to post by Maymunah

Nope. Not anti anything.

I agree with what you say of the people there, and the family infighting.

I think if both sides would follow their Scriptures, there would be instant lasting peace.

But extremists on both sides won't have it, and the US keeps pouring fuel on the fires.


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Reply to post by ellieN

That verse is in reference to God's judgement. God does not care who you are. All will be judged equally under the law.


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Reply to post by IAMIAM

No need to talk down to me.

You made the assertion that Jesus said that something into the Torah is wrong. I am asking you to back it up.


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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
No need to talk down to me.

You made the assertion that Jesus said that something into the Torah is wrong. I am asking you to back it up.

1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

This is what Christ taught.

3Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Not the Jews, not the israelis, not the Pharisees, but the poor in spirit inherit the Kingdom of Heaven.

4Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Not those who cause mourning, but those who mourn.

5Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Not those who claim they are chosen, not those who loft themselves over others, not those who proclaim their own righteousness, but those who are meek shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Not those who are full of righteousness, not those who persecute others in the name of righteousness, but those who HUNGER and THIRST for righteousness shall be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Those who show mercy, not those who mercilessly dominate others, will obtain mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

The PURE in heart shall see God, not those whose heart is filled with the impurities of hate and judgement.

9Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Those who seek to make peace are children of God, not those who hunger for war.

10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Who has the right to persecute another? No one. Those who suffer persecution in the name of righteousness, theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven.

11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

How often do we see others reviled, persecuted, and done evil in the name of Christ?

12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

There is nothing tyranny despises more than the truth.

13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. 14Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

The Pharisees are not the Light, the common Man, the oppressed, the reviled, the persecuted, they are the light of the world. They reflect the world we have created.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What Law? He is about to explain.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Those who not just teach the Law but DO the Law, they shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Always hunger and thirst for righteousness. None are righteous.

21Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: 22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; 24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

Don't judge one another or you will be in danger of judgement. This is a bit contradictory to the 613 Mosaic laws.

26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. 27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

You cannot rail against adultery when you know you have already committed it in your mind.

29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. 30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

If you find something offensive, toss it from your mind. It only causes you to cast judgement on others. There is no Sin unless you find things sinful.

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: 32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

If you do not treat your partners lovingly, you cause them to commit adultery. If you marry someone who is divorced, you too have committed adultery. Christ is pointing out the flaws in the system of Sin from the old testament.

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

This kinda negates any covenants wouldn't you think?

38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

Yeah, lets chip away some more of the Old Testament code of Laws.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Yes indeed, be perfect because you ARE perfect!

Christ wasn't hated by the Pharisees and crucified for selling ice cream cones. He was directly challenging the Torah and for that he was put to death.

I could list teaching after teaching of Christ, but it would not matter. People will only see what they want to see. Look not with your eyes, but with your heart. All are perfect, all are a creation of God, and all are entitled to share this world where ever they should decide to travel upon it.

I am not talking down to you my friend, I am trying to raise you up to seeing the world as Christ did. He wasn't stuck in the Old Testament, and neither should you be. The Jews had the opportunity for salvation through their messiah, but they rejected him, and crucified him, and even today fight the will of God to establish and defend the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel, the nation of Israel.

I come to remind you of what Christ said, and be a witness to the hand of God as it pulls down once again that ill fated Temple erected by a spiteful people.

There is one God and we belong to HIM, not the other way around.

With Love,

Your Brother

Interesting topic. I would like to draw it our some:

God only favors the righteous, according to the Quran.

The Israeli dispensation or People of the Book and their affair that took place centuries ago were long abrogated by the divine guidance that revealed all the scriptures.

Any hanging on to any tradition of being "God’s chosen" is ONLY symbolic, yet anachronistic.

The concept of chosen people is based on the fact that “God” or the earthly agency of guidance in this world chooses one race in an era or epoch to carry its message.

In this sense two racial lineages have been chosen to have this message and they are the Semetic: Arabs or children of Ishmael, and Hebrews or sons of Isaac.
The other lineage is the Aryans, typified by the ancient Indian race or Hindus culminating in Buddha.

If we examine western religion, Judaism, Christianity and Islam we see the Semites, culminating in the “Seal of the Prophets” Muhammad, a semitic descendent of Ishmael. If we examine far eastern religion its founders were the Aryans. These both are chosen by the Divine Hierarchy to carry the message.
Also you have Zoroaster, the founder of Zoroastrianism, who seems to also have been an Aryan, though from Iran, whose teaching is similiar to the Semitic dispensation.

So it seems that the racial lineages of God’s chosen in the world are based on the Semetic and Aryan races primarily. Indeed, that may be why it is recorder in many alternative histories a connection of Jesus to the Indians and according to the book Anacalypsis, by Godfrey Higgins, there is a connection of Islam with Buddha

Originally posted by OldCorp
God's covenant with Abraham . . .

Definition of covenant :

conditional promises

________________

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


That's the issue I was attempting to point out in my last post is that, how can a non Jewish Israeli follow Torah or a non Muslim Palestinian follow Quran? I'm sure you have witnessed The Jewish over there fighting with Israel? You have a conglomeration of issues in Israel/Palestine, there are two governments, several different Religions, the Secularists, Militant groups such as Hamas and Fattah, both of which are Palestinian but one plays on the side of Israel, the other just likes to blow up things And then...you have the outsiders such as Iran and US, UN sticking their noses in, which to be honest, just makes the situation in a constant state of fire (like you stated)

The Palestinians in Israel and those dispersed all over are adamant that "Israel" is not Israel, but Palestine and it is their homeland and they are right! Their fathers fathers father fathers were born and raised there and in 1967 their fathers were booted out and cannot even go back. It's very shady or at least appears to be. And the depth of the real problem is "who" are the Palestinians? Try not to look at Religious aspect of the people, but rather the history, I think it will become obvious who they are. Also...read up on what God said to King Solomon, there is a HUGE clue right there.

All in all...I believe it is a tribal war over land.

Originally posted by ToneDeaf

Originally posted by OldCorp
God's covenant with Abraham . . .

Definition of covenant :

conditional promises

________________

Wrong . . . again . . .

A covenant is an agreement between two parties. There are two types of covenants: conditional and unconditional. A conditional or bilateral covenant is an agreement that is binding on both parties for its fulfillment. Both parties agree to fulfill certain conditions. If either party fails to meet their responsibilities, the covenant is broken and neither party has to fulfill the expectations of the covenant. An unconditional or unilateral covenant is an agreement between two parties, but only one of the two parties has to do something. Nothing is required of the other party.


Genesis 17:7 - “I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you."

And to cut you off at the pass with all your thoughts on conditions of said covenant . . . here is some good info

reply to post by Maymunah


I understand all that. My issue is when certain Muslims use the Quran to justify their problems with Israel, when the Quran justifies Israel being there.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
reply to post by Maymunah

 

I understand all that. My issue is when certain Muslims use the Quran to justify their problems with Israel, when the Quran justifies Israel being there.

While this may be true, I am not seeing that aspect of it at all. Before I educated myself with Islam, I used to believe they were God's instruments He uses on mankind, even one place in the Bible God say's "I will stir up the spirit of Medes" and Joel 2 specifically confirms that God does have any army of devastation against disobedient and unrepentant people. And to a certain degree...I still kind of believe this. Most Muslims will say, "I do not have a problem with Jewish people, even those in Palestine, I have a problem with Israel" and even some Jewish have a problem with Israel. For the most part, the Jews and Palestinians live peaceably side by side, until the "government" decides they want their house I guess I can't say I might be a little upset if the government forced me out of my home, tore it down and rebuilt it for others.