The question the jewish `gods` dont like to answer!!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Alright, me and my father are also one and the same... Does that mean im also God?

You're not one and the same as the Father. If you're born again you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't make you the Creator of the universe. I'd never claim to be one and the same as the Father.

The Bible clearly says all things were created by Jesus Christ. And that He pre-existed Abraham. Jesus also calls Himself the Great I AM. Jesus claimed to be God, either He was crazy, a liar, or was telling the truth and is LORD.

You shouldn't deal in absolutes my friend, i wasn't saying i am the creator, but in fact I AM part of God, so are you and so is everything in creation. Jesus never once said I AM GOD... but he made people believe he was saying that, they assumed he was saying that which is the same as judging a person, which we should not do.

IF you believe everything in the bible is true, please find me where Jesus said I AM GOD and i will happily concede...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

link them again please...if you insist i'll watch

Oh come on, I can link them again if you insist, but just go back to page 4, I linked them all there in a reply to you.

And that's a very fair deal, I'll check out your thread when i return from the store.

Good deal i'll watch them...

reply to post by Akragon

IF you believe everything in the bible is true, please find me where Jesus said I AM GOD and i will happily concede...

I've already done that. Jesus said He and the Father are one. Those who heard Him say it tired to stone Him for blasphemy. Jesus also allows and welcomes people to worship Him as God and doesn't rebuke them for it. Either He was God in the flesh when He allowed this, or He was very deceitful.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

link them again please...if you insist i'll watch

Oh come on, I can link them again if you insist, but just go back to page 4, I linked them all there in a reply to you.

And that's a very fair deal, I'll check out your thread when i return from the store.

Good deal i'll watch them...

That's fair, I appreciate it.

I'm going to the store now, will view your thread when i return.

Alright...

First i've seen all of these videos on heptadic structure several times, and if he says they're true i can't argue it. Again im no mathmatician so i wouldn't even attempt it.

On the other hand i've also heard of Chuck Mesler, and the Koinonia House...

All i can say to you my friend is beware the "Doom and Gloom" preachers...

And people who believe in the "rapture" as an event where "some" will be taken from this world and the rest will be in judgement of God.

Again believe what you want to believe im not here to change beliefs... but yet again we come to a disagreement to which there is no solution.

Im afraid to say the "rapture" will never happen, we are all equal parts of Gods creation, and believing he will separate us even more then religion already has... Well you're on your own there my friend...

Christians are no different then muslims or jews, or any other person that believes in a God. They're all the same God just different perspectives of understanding. Even athiests will die, and go to "heaven"... There is no exception to that rule... Because once again, everyone no matter what race creed or religion is a part of the whole and thus we are all equal. If you can't understand that concept its pointless to continue this debate.

So again believe whatever you like, as i've said before it doesn't matter we all end up in the same place.

Fortunately some things are true regardless of belief

reply to post by Akragon


Look friend, let me try another approach. Gnosticism was first mixed with Christianity by Justin Martyr who was not a believer, he was a pagan priest, and died in his pagan worship robes. He began Gnosticism years after the death of the apostle John. Justin Martyr never met Jesus, He died before Justin was born. Before Justin it was pagan Greek philosophy, it had nothing to do with the God of the Bible.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Look friend, let me try another approach. Gnosticism was first mixed with Christianity by Justin Martyr who was not a believer, he was a pagan priest, and died in his pagan worship robes. He began Gnosticism years after the death of the apostle John. Justin Martyr never met Jesus, He died before Justin was born. Before Justin it was pagan Greek philosophy, it had nothing to do with the God of the Bible.

If you read the texts you'll see that they do have everything to do with the God of the bible....

Regardless of who wrote them, they use the words of Christ and you can compare many with whats in the bible...

For example... From Thomas

1 And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

reply to post by Akragon


That is not things Christ said. Those who wrote them were not around Christ, nor any of His apostles. For the 10th time or so they are 2nd and 4th century texts. Any resemblanced they do have to the Bible is borrowed themes, words from Matthew.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

That is not things Christ said. Those who wrote them were not around Christ, nor any of His apostles. For the 10th time or so they are 2nd and 4th century texts. Any resemblanced they do have to the Bible is borrowed themes, words from Matthew.

Those are most definatly teachings of christ, perhaps not the exact words found in the bible but the theme is exact... and even if they are borrowed from mathew are they not correct?
------------------
Thomas:
And He said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death."

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 8:51
Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
---------------------------------
Thomas:
Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest

Matthew 13:44-46
44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. 45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

-----------------------------------------------
Thomas:
Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
----------------------------

I can't make it much more clear my friend.... Again im not trying to change your belief, and im sure as hell not going to go through all of the gnostic gospels to show you the similarities in the texts. This is just the first three passages from Thomas and its very easy to find Tons more.

So believe whatever you want, and i'll do the same.

This arguement is pointless.... Again im sorry you don't understand but as i've said before walk your path my friend.

reply to post by Akragon


Hypothetically speaking:


So you would have no problem if I scoured the Bible and paraphrased the teachings of Christ, while mixing in a few sayings that I myself made up that supported New Age mysticism and Scientology. Then titled my book "The Gospel of Andrew"?

Am I correct that you would defend my work as the true sayings of Christ?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Hypothetically speaking:


So you would have no problem if I scoured the Bible and paraphrased the teachings of Christ, while mixing in a few sayings that I myself made up that supported New Age mysticism and Scientology. Then titled my book "The Gospel of Andrew"?

Am I correct that you would defend my work as the true sayings of Christ?

edit on 29-3-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Why would i say its a true saying of christ... these documents are from around those times for one thing. Which adds some credibility... secondly you can clearly see the teachings of the same man, whom they still did not understand in Thomas... I could go though the bible and show you the teachings are the same with other beliefs added from the same time. Reincarnation still exists in your bible....so theres no arguement there.

I also know new age mysticism and scientology so writing a new gospel supporting either would be obvious.

Why do you think the church and governement of the time wanted gnostics Gone so badly they were willing to destroy their writings and their people just to keep their ideals out of the bible? Perhaps because the gnostics understood that knowing your own spirit exists would give you freedom? The churches would have no hold on your beliefs and thus no control?

As i've said this is a pointless arguement... You belief strongly in what the church says is right and you're welcome to your beliefs. Personally i believe the church has done everything in its power to keep the true teachings of christ hidden from the pubilc... Yet again this is the reason Jesus spoke in parables, to keep the teachings alive but still hidden enough to not get edited out... read the parables of Jesus, if you understand them you can see how they mirror so many of the gnostic texts.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon

 

Hypothetically speaking:


So you would have no problem if I scoured the Bible and paraphrased the teachings of Christ, while mixing in a few sayings that I myself made up that supported New Age mysticism and Scientology. Then titled my book "The Gospel of Andrew"?

Am I correct that you would defend my work as the true sayings of Christ?

Why would i say its a true saying of christ...

I gave you an example of what the Gnostics did with the sayings of Jesus Christ taken from the Synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They paraphrased many of His sayings and teachings and mingled Greek philosophies in as well. It would be the same as if I took the teachings of Christ, paraphrased them, then added heretical ideas mingled withing the various sayings. Then the Gnostics used names of apostles for their books in a fraudulent manner to try and give them legitimacy.

these documents are from around those times for one thing.

No they are not! The Gospels and Paul's letter all date prior to 67 AD, they make no mention of the siege and destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Roman legions in 70 AD which would have been one of the greatest news items in several centuries to the Jews. The FIRST person to mix Gnostic teachings and Greek philosophy was Justin Martyr who was born some 70 years after the New Testament books were written. These Gnostic texts were written centuries after the Synoptic Gospels and the disciple's epistles. The Gnostic gospels were written from the 2nd through the 4th century AD.

Which adds some credibility...

It adds no credibility whatsoever, first of all they were written and given false authorship to long dead disciples of Christ. That's outright deceit in just the titles of the books, secondly, they were written from Alexandria, Egypt from men who were centuries removed from the apostolic writers of the NT.

secondly you can clearly see the teachings of the same man, whom they still did not understand in Thomas...

Of course, the authors of the Gnostic texts paraphrased the teachings of Christ from the Synoptic Gospels. The big problem is the Gnostic pagan Greek philosophies they intermingled within the paraphrased teachings of Christ. And to the apostle Paul:

"Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?"

I could go though the bible and show you the teachings are the same with other beliefs added from the same time. Reincarnation still exists in your bible....so theres no arguement there.

I have no doubt you could do that if you used a modern Bible translation. They are all translated from the Textus Sinaticus and Textus Vaticanus Greek manuscripts which originated in the 4th and 5th centuries from Alexandria, Egypt. The Gnostics expurgated an enormous amount of verses from the Bible that they didn't like. Many portions of the Bible that they expurgated appear in commentaries from early church fathers centuries before which shows they were removed from the text by folks later than their commentaries.

Why do you think the church and governement of the time wanted gnostics Gone so badly they were willing to destroy their writings and their people just to keep their ideals out of the bible?

?? Huh? The cannon of the NT was settled by the early church before the Gnostic texts were written, the commentaries by the early church fathers were written early in the 2nd century AD. Peter, James, Jude, and Paul all warned of the heresy that was beginning to make it's way around the area at the times they lived. The Gnostic books were not included in the Bible for two main reasons. 1 they were written long after their alleged authors were martyred and killed, and 2 the authors themselves neither knew Christ nor were on of His direct apostles.

Perhaps because the gnostics understood that knowing your own spirit exists would give you freedom? The churches would have no hold on your beliefs and thus no control?

Or perhaps it was a failed attempt by the enemy to subvert the doctrine of Christianity?? Remember Paul's warning:

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:8

As i've said this is a pointless arguement...

It's only pointless because you don't understand the historical evidence and the dating of the Gnostic texts.

You belief strongly in what the church says is right and you're welcome to your beliefs.

Apparently you missed my statement earlier that my final authority is the Word of God, the Bible, and that I have left churches that taught things contrary to the Bible.

Personally i believe the church has done everything in its power to keep the true teachings of christ hidden from the pubilc...

Why would the body of Christ try and keep the teachings of Christ hidden from the public? Have you not read Christ teach that "a house divided against itself cannot stand"?? Could it be a possibility that the body of Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit have gone to great lengths to keep doctrines of demons and false heresies out of the church?? Is that even a remote possibility to you??

Yet again this is the reason Jesus spoke in parables, to keep the teachings alive but still hidden enough to not get edited out...

He tells the disciple the reason He spoke in parables! It had nothing to do with having His sayings edited out of the text. And ironically, it was the Gnostics who took it upon themselves to expurgate the texts, not the apostles. The Gnostics expurgated the text OF THE apostles of Christ.

read the parables of Jesus, if you understand them you can see how they mirror so many of the gnostic texts.

We've went over this, the Gnostics paraphrased many of the things from the Synoptic Gospels. The big problem is the Greek pagan philosophies mingled withing the paraphrased sayings.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Well i still say this arguement is pointless.... but i will say a few things...

Firstly...the authors of the Synoptic gospels are still to this day not fully known... There is speculation that none of the titled authors actually wrote them. Theres is no definitive proof of who wrote any of the Synoptic gospels only speculation... So this makes your arguement that the titled authors of the gnostic texts were not the true identities null and void.

Regardless of who wrote them Chirsts lessons are still there, and the same could be said about the gnostic gospels except for the fact that the church destroyed much if not most of them. Im not going to get into reasons because i really don't want to extend this arguement farther then its already gone.

It's only pointless because you don't understand the historical evidence and the dating of the Gnostic texts.

Oh but i do understand when they were written...the fact is it doesn't matter when they were written or who they were written by....they contain knowledge that should be known the world over...truth if you will. You say your final word is the word of God, but you close your eyes to other teachings that arn't in your bible. This is why this arguement is pointless...

And what of the koran, or the bhagavad gita? Even buddism? Are they not also the "inspired" work of God? Or are they works of the devil to you?

Apparently you missed my statement earlier that my final authority is the Word of God, the Bible, and that I have left churches that taught things contrary to the Bible.

No i caught that....

Why would the body of Christ try and keep the teachings of Christ hidden from the public? Have you not read Christ teach that "a house divided against itself cannot stand"??

A house divided against it self is the situation in all churches today my friend... Humanity is divided over religious doctrine... So if this is your belief then "the body of Christ" has failed miserably. This quote refers to the human condition, the body and the spirit is divided as most stand today... Its only through the realization of the spirit you can become one with God.

Could it be a possibility that the body of Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit have gone to great lengths to keep doctrines of demons and false heresies out of the church?? Is that even a remote possibility to you??

Yes it could be possible, but those who are in control of the church are heretic in their own values, and have always been... so they have little to no push as to what is the true teachings to me. Again i believe they push their own ideal with little regard for the act of spreading knowledge....they have their own library which no one is allowed into... I assume this is where they probably keep any secret knowledge and likely many gnostic texts that have yet to be discovered.

I think its also possible that some of the writers of the gnostic gospels tried to use the names of the appostles to get some of their work into the bible...again to spread the true teachings.

Again as i try to end this arguement for the third time.....you believe whatever you want. You can't change my belief and i have no interest in changing anyones... I believe the church is corrupt beyond anything, so they are not trustable nor have they ever been.

Using religious beliefs as an excuse for genocide is wrong, and they've been guilty of it all through out history.

So as i've said before, walk your path...believe what you will, and i'll do the same