Is being gay a choice/lifestyle?

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by rai76
In my opinion God is created by the humans, like any religion is created. And luckely the church doesnt have much influence anymore like the old days.
[edit on 23/7/2004 by rai76]

Listen, I did not make this topic to start yet another "is christianity true" thread. I am a Christian myself, but please stick to the topic next time you post. Such comments just rip good discussions apart.

Listen, as far as I know I can quote and respond to anyone that is taking part in this thread.

Originally posted by rai76
Listen, as far as I know I can quote and respond to anyone that is taking part in this thread.

Of course you can, and I am asking you not to screw up the thread with provoking, off topic remarks.
Start your own new thread for that.
Thanks.

[edit on 23-7-2004 by Jakko]

Slank,

Thank you for replying to my question. It was a serious question, although a little provocative (on purpose, in order to get attention). I will answer to you right after I analyse the relationship between religion and sex and why gays say there is no God.

First of all, sex is not a sin.

The concept that sex is sin is an invention of Judaism, then of Christianity (that is a descentant of Judaism). Look at eastern religions! they have such a good relationship with sex! sex is not taboo for them!

Now, let us all think a little about religion and sex.

Let's just say God exists (I will not argue if God exists or not, but let's just start our hypothesis with the positive choice).

God made everything around us, right ?

Therefore God gaves us logic - the mind to think and consiousness - the ability to contemplate our thought processes.

God also gave us sex, as a means of reproduction.

Sex is something wonderful; all senses are motion during sex; it invokes wonderful feelings.

Sex could not be something revolting, otherwise we would not procreate.

Therefore, God made sex seductive.

Then, why sex is a sin, if God made it what it is?

People experience a great controversy inside them: from one side, God says that sex is a sin, and from the other side, God says (indirectly) that sex is not a sin. This great controversy has been fueling human creation for millenia.

For homosexual people, the controversy is even bigger.

Gay people think like this:

"If there is God, why did God made me a gay person? Why did God allow me being born condemned?"

The logical answer to this is that there should be a problem with the definition of God, as given by society.

And the next step in this logical series of thoughts is that God does not exist.

Remember, straight people, gay men (mostly) climb the hill of torment many times a day, in their lifes.

The rest of my post is for Slank.

Im not a particularly masculine male

Neither am I.

but Im not being a woman, I am being who I am

Would you behave like a woman, if there is no one around to make fun of you ? Would you like to behave like a woman? do you fantasize of being one? especially in bed?

like the muscularity of a man, I like the way a man smells, the physical power of a male

Have you ever thought why do you like another human being to be more powerful than you and to exercise this power over you?

Do you feel happy during the sex act with another man? Happy like someone remembering your birthday, for example.

Does it excite you to feel powerless and in the mercy of a man?

Do you like to be kissed by another man romantically? When I am saying 'romantically', I mean without any sex involved.

If you don't want, you don't have to answer these questions.

But if you do, I maybe help you find more about yourself, and maybe find out a solution to the 'gay problem' (not that it is a problem, but society likes to think it as a problem), as I think I know what it is.

Finally, i would like to say that I am not a doctor or something, but I think we should all participate in an intelligent and open discussion about what makes us tick...self-analysis will tell you more than any doctor could ever tell you.

masterp, in your last post, you wrote about finding a solution to the 'gay' problem. I was just wondering if you could clarify what you meant, as I'm not really following what you say there.

Also a tip for people who are interested in the religious side of this. You may have missed the thread which has become quite extensive:

Titled: 'If Being Gay is alright in the eyes of God then..... '
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by rai76

And what about God is loving everyone, no matter what! In my opinion God is created by the humans, like any religion is created. And luckely the church doesnt have much influence anymore like the old days.

I can tell you that one's I believe in a God, I was rased catholic. But I choosed to stop that, because I cannot love God or any other religon, that want's me to live by certain rules which he/or the church thinks thats ok to live like.

[edit on 23/7/2004 by rai76]

It is very frustrating to read posts such as this. How can you argue such an irresponsible and invalid stance? The bible Super-Clearly states that God does love everyone. And, we are ALL sinners. He doesn't pick on one group of sinners more than another. I tend to gossip. In His eyes, that's just as bad as homosexuality, and the bible supports that. But I seek forgiveness for my sins, just as you can, and restore that relationship with him.

Dr. Glasser is explicit in the belief that all behavior is chosen. Choice theory states, and I quote, from this site....

acrtqss.home.texas.net...~mainFrame

"Choice Theory states that human beings always choose their behavior in an attempt to satisfy basic needs which are built into their genetic structure. It is called Choice Theory because it explains that our behavior at any given time is our best choice to satisfy one or more of our basic needs. Dr. William Glasser has designated Choice Theory as the psychology that should replace the theory of human behavior almost all people in the world believe, which he calls External Control Psychology. External Control Psychology postulates that people, situations and things outside of us cause our behavior. External Control Psychology can be recognized in the belief systems of many people who are not in effective control of their behavior."

www.wglasser.com...

I suggest the above site as a starter for learning why we behave the way we do.

[edit on 23-7-2004 by smokenmirrors]

Originally posted by lovemydvr

It is very frustrating to read posts such as this. How can you argue such an irresponsible and invalid stance? The bible Super-Clearly states that God does love everyone. And, we are ALL sinners. He doesn't pick on one group of sinners more than another. I tend to gossip. In His eyes, that's just as bad as homosexuality, and the bible supports that. But I seek forgiveness for my sins, just as you can, and restore that relationship with him.

Here. Here. Exactly. You know, I have found that as soon as a christian is involved with a topic that the bible clearly talks (homosexuality) about and tries to explain why it is wrong, we are instantly hit with a couple of things:

1. Judge not lest you be judged
2. God loves all people
3. Christians are hypocrits
4. A loving God wouldn't let bad things happen to good people.
5. God created the devil, so he knew there would be sin. Why did He do this?
6. The bible was created by man.

Reading some of these posts has really made my head turn. Why? Because I've come to realize that these people actually believe what they are writing and it scares me. I can feel their anger of me or anyone who goes against them in their words. They try to be logical but are, in fact, quite illogical. Their logic only exists without God. This is why it is so frustrating. Without God, I would be inclined to think like they do. I would also feel more free to have extra-marital affairs, get drunk, etc.. But I don't because I believe in God and what His Son did for me.

I will never be perfect and I would hope that anyone in a debate with a christian doesn't throw that up. It's a cheap shot really. You think something magical happens when a sinner is saved? No. It's an acknowledgement that you are a sinner and a time to repent and ask God for forgiveness. This is typically done in public, but you don't say everything that you have done. You simply say that I will never be good enough on my own to get into Heaven. Being a nice person just doesn't cut it, although many believe that is all it takes. For example, "I'm a nice person, why, I've never killed anyone".

To say that all you have to do is be a nice person is to deny why God sent His ONLY Son to die for us. It was the greatest act of love that was ever shown to man. And this was done for everyone, so please don't bring up the argument that God is SUPPOSED to love everyone. He does. That is why Jesus died for YOU and me. He didn't say, "this only applies to everyone who is heterosexual". This was done for sinners, for the rest of man's existence. And we have sin from the time of Adam.

And then you have "so-called" christians with watered-down faith who say they either believe in God or who go to church and tell us that the bible says its o.k. to be gay. Where does it say this? Or, they want to argue theological dogma on the validity of OT/NT scriptures. Look, you either believe the bible, the entire bible, is the word of God or you don't. If you wat to have a Burger King relationship with God (have it your way), they that is your issue. But, don't try to argue this as some sort of fact.

The last time I checked the bible it states that God created man in His own image. Not sheep. You keep bringing up the gay sheep thing. To say that God created some of us to be born gay would prove that God image is would be both homosexual and heterosexual. God is non-sexual and does not need to procreate. Humans do. Procreation started with man and woman. God made it pleasurable. Satan took that and perveted it. God saw this and destroyed two cities because the inhabitants would not turn from their wicked ways.

I could write more, but I am getting tired of this. I have been on this side of the debate for far too long. The best thing I can do for all of you is pray for you. Apparently, I am not saying anything to change you. So, short of death, I pray that God does whatever it takes to prove that He is indeed real to you and that He does love you and will forgive you. All you have to do is ask and repent.

[edit on 23-7-2004 by Freenrgy2]

Smokenmirrors is on to exactly what I'm talking about, too. I haven't read the whole link yet, but that's what I am thinking of.

My whole point is that I DO NOT think slank or me or anyone else is a robot.

We choose how and when to respond to our sexual urges.

Otherwise, no one would never turn down sex

So people DO make sexual choices every day.

That is not something one is born with. The Urges are genetic, I'm sure. but our response is not, UNLESS we are robots with no free will at all.

IMO, the whole, "i was born this way" attitude is an evasion of responsibility for ALL kinds of behavior, not just sex.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

IMO, the whole, "i was born this way" attitude is an evasion of responsibility for ALL kinds of behavior, not just sex.

I couldn't agree with you more. Hard to argue that point.

What the hell do these male things love in each other? I just can't believe, that they hunger for each others' body.. Do they really think, that women are less tastier???

Originally posted by Istvan
What the hell do these male things love in each other? I just can't believe, that they hunger for each others' body.. Do they really think, that women are less tastier???

As a homosexual, yes, woman are far more less tastier, but still beautifull beings. But unfortunatly they can't satisfie my needs.

There is close relationship between normal sex, homosexuality, animal sex, or extreme sex... the difference, is what you are actually practising. The same thing probably woth one doing it with a dog... he would hate doing it with a human.

I just do not believe, that homosexuality is that complicated, though I am interested, what is going through a homo's mind when he sees a beautiful woman with hardly anything on her. Does he feel enormous hatred toward her for being unreachable to him?

I mean, if a man is used to a man, he will "forget" his capability to be nice to women, and they will keep away from him. He then will remain with men, because they are easier to bait.

Originally posted by Istvan
what is going through a homo's mind when he sees a beautiful woman with hardly anything on her. Does he feel enormous hatred toward her for being unreachable to him?

I mean, if a man is used to a man, he will "forget" his capability to be nice to women, and they will keep away from him. He then will remain with men, because they are easier to bait.

I think for homosexual people it's basicly the same as for heterosexual people, just the other way around.
So someone who is gay would like to have woman as "friends" but not for relationships, just like straight guys want to have other guys as friends, but not for relationships.
And of course you can have other friends that are the gender you're attracted to as well, but I don't think that's usual.

Beig a heterosexual is not complicated at all. It probably means the same if being a homosexual. Now here is the big question: if a guy is attracted to animals (dog, goat, snake, etc) what would go through his mond when seeing a beautiful lady? The same thing? "I love those chicks, but I do not want to touch any of those, but let's be friends..." it stinks a bit, I think.

I am very interested about the thoughts of the homos, as they all describe what they are actually doing. It only seems complicated, because they deliberately hide things, and mislead us.

To the conclusion, I think, they are not disabled or genetically out of order... they turn to men simply because they did not learn how to deal with women. It is same with the animal sex, that is why I wrote as example.

dr_strangecraft, you can to choose to breathe or not, right? Maybe it is a biological imperative? ya think? Sometimes you get desperately thirsty, biological imperative compels you to drink water. You get desperately hungry you will probably search and find something to eat. You get desperately horny you find someone who will satisfy those needs. For me the ONLY category of person who will satisfy that need for me is another male. These are the primary biological drives.

Some people are BORN straight, some people are BORN gay, some people are BORN bisexual. Some people are dumb enough to say this isn't so.

dr_strangecraft, you may try to gloss over it, but you and delta47dragon are both bigots. You have lots of company. Take comfort in that, but don't pretend that you don't have a self limited viewpoint.

YOU could 'choose' to truly view something from someone elses perspective, but something tells me you won't. Ignorance is after all reputed to be bliss.

Lie to yourself. It's no skin off my nose.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by badkitty
Unless you are a doctor that has an opinion based on sound physical research I think it is absurd for a heterosexual person to try to determine whether homosexuality is genetic or chosen. Asking a hetero about this (who isn't a scientist) is like asking a white man if blacks are still suffering discrimination. You can't know if you haven't experienced it or scientifically studied it.

I think that's wrong.
Just like heterosexual people can find out wether their desire for woman is a choice/lifestyle or something they're born with, you can think about how this works with gay people.
Most likely in the exact same way?

What? Are you gay? I'm not getting where you're coming from with this. How can we "find out wether their desire for woman is a choice/lifestyle or something they're born with" other than through scientific/medical study? How can the average hetro know what goes on in the mind, heart and body of the average homo?

Maybe homosexuality isn't the socially imposed choice. Maybe hetrosexuality is a socially dictated choice. You choose to be hetro because that is what you are taught from the time you are born. The only way for a hetero without research to determine if homosexuality is a choice would be if they were raised in a completely unbiased society in which sexuality is totally open. Meaning, a society where there are not different roles for men and women, and there are no expectations for partners and love.

In fact, just think about love for a minute. Who do you love? Why do you love them? Did you choose to fall in love with that person? Did you come from a point where love was only a conscious decision and one day you decided you would be in love and logically selected who you would fall in love with? If so, you are unique. If not, then consider that this is the same with homosexuals as with hetrosexuals.

We keep getting hung up on the sex act itself and forget that this is about relatinships, love and partnership just as with heteros.

Originally posted by Jakko
Let's not forget that there are a lot of christian people who are homosexual.

Oh my goodness, I just can't pass this one up. I guarantee that there is not a Christian who is truly serving the Lord and faithfully seeking Him that is gay...or at least content with it. That is impossible. How many times do we have to point out that the bible clearly condemns homosexuality. Anyone seeking to live a Godly life would be under conviction if living a gay lifestyle. Just as I tend to gossip, I am not content with it because I know it is sinful. We have to remember, homosexuality is just as "sinful" as greed, lust...etc and everything else the bible mentions as wrong. We all have absolutely no problem admitting that everything else the bible calls sin is just that - sin. What gives anyone the tiniest right to exclude homosexuality?

P.S. - Can't we PLEASE LEAVE RELIGION OUT OF THIS THREAD?!? Can we discuss this from a scientific/logical standpoint? If you leave Christianity out of it we may be able to get some real, open discussion that may lead our feeble minds to a sound conclusion. Anyone have any links to some research, some sound opinions?

Originally posted by slank
dr_strangecraft, you can to choose to breathe or not, right? Maybe it is a biological imperative? ya think? Sometimes you get desperately thirsty, biological imperative compels you to drink water. You get desperately hungry you will probably search and find something to eat. You get desperately horny you find someone who will satisfy those needs.

dr_strangecraft, you may try to gloss over it, but you and delta47dragon are both bigots.

Your examples of "biological imperatives" are things that you must have for your metabolic system to continue functioning. Sex is a wonderful thing. But doing without it won't kill you. Again that makes it a choice.

Look, I tried to keep this fairly impersonal. But I guess that's just not possible.

Obviously, ANYONE who disagrees with you is a bigot.

Next time your sneering at your christian/conservative/hetero foes,
take a look in the mirror. The nearest bigot is closer than you think.

For all you know, I AM gay. (nah. gays cannot be bigots---right slank?)

Whatever I am, I know its up to me to be whatever I want to.

Thanks for proving that this whole issue is not about genetics OR culture, it's about scoring points for your own side.

Originally posted by lovemydvr

Originally posted by Jakko
Let's not forget that there are a lot of christian people who are homosexual.

Oh my goodness, I just can't pass this one up. I guarantee that there is not a Christian who is truly serving the Lord and faithfully seeking Him that is gay...or at least content with it. That is impossible. How many times do we have to point out that the bible clearly condemns homosexuality. Anyone seeking to live a Godly life would be under conviction if living a gay lifestyle. Just as I tend to gossip, I am not content with it because I know it is sinful. We have to remember, homosexuality is just as "sinful" as greed, lust...etc and everything else the bible mentions as wrong. We all have absolutely no problem admitting that everything else the bible calls sin is just that - sin. What gives anyone the tiniest right to exclude homosexuality?

So, if christian not gay. What about all those priests? They are gay, about 25,000, and they are the leaders that lead people to god. So, are they not real christians or not real gays? I think they prove homosexuality is a born thing. They grew up with religon, they grew up with Gays evil and going to hell, yet they are gay. Do you think they choose to be gay even though they know people will condem them?

And i have plenty of gay.lesbian freinds, and on;y thing that pisses me off is one of my female lesbian freinds has had more g/f's then me. She tried to be with men, she tried dozens of relationships, but never loved any of them. She would have sex, but didn't like it. But with her g/f she feels complete, she has told me how she felt herself filled in a way no man could ever fill her.(not sexually) it isn't just sex, it is feelings, love, relationships. Christians can say what they want, but if they judge any gays they are going straight to hell. Why? The bible says it is gods job to judge, not yours, and by judging someone you are trying to be god. So, all you christians sayong gays are evil and not born gay and are disgusting, you all going to hell.