Is being gay a choice/lifestyle?

-->Replying to Dolphin. Somebody saw the large quote that Dolphin started and ratted me becuase I used his quote to respond. Just so everyone knows, I sent him a U2U and told him that I was not going to be baited, but he wanted answers. So here they are.


No, I won't beat it over your heads, but I don't believe that God created man to love the same sex. I think that this is a deception of Satan and one of the many devices he uses to try and divide and destroy us.


Freenrgy2, I'm curious to know why you think that God doesn't want man to love the same sex. What do you base this belief in? The bible maybe? Interesting, I always thought that the good book was man's intrepretation of God's word. Throughout history, man has been wrong many times.

-->Yes, the bible. My opinion is that this is the word of God. A disbelief in this fundamental truth will make all other statements to follow pointless to you.

And then you go on to say this:
quote:"I have also found out that MOST, but not all, gay people do not believe in God."

How have you found this? I'm really interested to know. Is there some kind of poll out there that shows this?

--> Mostly from experience. Certainly the posters here in this forum would state that this is true for the most part. You convienently left out that I said MOST and not ALL. It isn't a blanket statement and should not be read that way.

And if there are straight people who don't believe in some form of higher being, does that mean that they are really gay?

-->Trying to use logic where common sense should be used? Kind of like "If some widgets are zorks and some zorks are snuffs, then some widgets must be snuffs." This is a flase statement and is the same prinicpal with gay and straight people. Sounds like you are trying to bait me.

And this quote from you is a real beauty (thank you):
quote:"I think that you had more in you childhood than you speak of. To be sexually aroused at 6 years old is not "normal". "

I always understood that male babies do have regular erections. Is this not normal as well? I mean, after all, to get an erection is caused by being aroused. Maybe you can enlighten us and define what you believe to be 'normal'.

--> Read the original post. The OP stated that he was sorta having "sex" at 6 years old with his nephew. Not normal. I'm sure you would agree that if two heterosexual children were "sorta having sex" that this would not be normal. Being curious is one thing, but making a statement like this is something I would not take as normal childhood development.

P.S. I get a hard on when I get up in the morning. Does this mean I was having sexual thoughts or dreams. No, it means I have to pee. So, you equate having an erection to sex? Erections are normal and can happen for a variety of reasons, all of which are normal. Again, you are trying very hard to twist my words.


[edit on 22-7-2004 by Freenrgy2]

[edit on 22-7-2004 by Freenrgy2]

One of my best friends is gay, and I have known lots of gay people throughout my life, and it is most definitely something you are born with. I remember one of my gay friends in high school crying her eyes out because she wanted to be straight like everyone else, and just couldn't be.

If a gay reads this (a male one), would you please tell me what makes you behave like a woman? what do you feel when you see a woman and what do you feel when you see a man.

From your answer I will reveal to you if gayness is from birth or something you've got in the way.

Here's my two bits. I have this urge to just put this out there. I know I won't change anyone's mind. Have the respect not to change mine.

1. I don't know of a single study showing an individual animal has been exclusively gay. Bi, yes. Exclusively gay, no. That makes me think it's human culture.

2. There are two kinds of sex. Consenting and non-consenting. Consenting means you chose to have sex. non-consenting means you were raped. So I believe consenting sex is a choice, not something you were born with.

3. Desire doesn't mean anything. I don't believe anyone can control their desires. (Right now, I want a martini. I'm drawn to it.) But you are responsible for your actions. You are responsible to and for the people you copulate with.

4. Anal sex is a serious health hazard. The sphincter is basically a sponge, to soak up the fluid out of your feces, to conserve body fluid. It also efficiently soaks up anything else introduced into it. It is also easily damaged by hard objects being inserted into it. Based on the fact that the act is harmful, I'd say that feeling the urge to harm self or others is deviant, and should be avoided.

Yes, I am a Christian. I believed the same when I was an athiest tho.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Here's my two bits. I have this urge to just put this out there. I know I won't change anyone's mind. Have the respect not to change mine.

I applaud, very well said.

Now get ready for the back lash you are going to receive. Even though you are just stating your opinion, people will attack you as though you just killed someone. Stand up for the truth and even though you are just standing up for what you believe, you will be persecuted heavily.

Again, good job.

Well, Im gay, and it wasn't a 'choice'. As a teenager I fought it trying to force myself to be excited by naked women. The social pressures on teenagers are immense. Women are great as people, but I have no sexual interest in them. I think the largest part of one's sexual orientation is determined during critical stages of brain development as an embryo. There are probably additional significant periods in the first year or so that might have some effects. Upon this basic foundation of one's desire orientation are the experiences we have growing up.

I could get all defensive and say "There is nothing wrong with being gay". I won't however waste the breath. Intellectually this may be true. People don't operate as complete unemotional rocks, we live we breathe. I think evolution favors the exclusion of gay people because they don't reproduce. Expending scarce resources on non-reproducing members of the species is not logical. In this day and age though one problem we are facing is overpopulation. This combined with technological options in terms of reproduction begins to negate those built in edicts of evolution.

To masterp: Im not a particularly masculine male, as some gay males are, but Im not being a woman, I am being who I am. I think i look like an ordinary middle-aged male. The smoothness of a woman, round curves, largeness of hips, the smells do not attract me. I could imagine getting sensual with a woman, but would not get hard. I like the muscularity of a man, I like the way a man smells, the physical power of a male, to me a man is an adventure to explore. Frankly men are a little crazy, they excite me. You probably see a woman as a mystery and an adventure. I speculate that my body is essentially male, my brain is slightly more female than male.

Life is way too short to get too hung up on things. Be constructive, enjoy life.

There is no way that anyone can be born gay. God created everything, and his Word clearly states that homosexuality is wrong - even forbidden. And...anyone who doesn't believe in God is simply uneducated. You may choose not to have a relationship with Him, but even secular historians agree that Jesus was who he claimed to be...and He said God is God! By the way, most Christians don't hate gay people - We just hate sin and the bible states that homosexuality is sin. That distinction MUST be made.

I'm a gay man. I don't act like a woman. I don't feel like a woman, though props to women. Just a side note - most people obsessed with figuring out how or why or who gay men are might just be trying to point the finger away from themselves. Why not focus on the similarities? Like how we are all human beings living on the planet?

my two cents
M

Would someone quote to me please the parts of the bible condemning homosexuality?

Many people get tired of the numerous Old Testament warnings about the topic, but it's not like we get to pick which parts of the bible to believe. It's all or nothing. Here are a couple...simply search Biblesearch.com or any other biblical website for tons more. But, these are pretty straightforward.

LEV 20:13 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Romans 1:26 ... Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Hmmmmmmm. I don't know about Romans...but the other is of the OT and I thought with the coming of "Christ" the OT was sorta like null and void...to an extent The NT is forgive, turn the other cheek and do not judge.

Unless you are a doctor that has an opinion based on sound physical research I think it is absurd for a heterosexual person to try to determine whether homosexuality is genetic or chosen. Asking a hetero about this (who isn't a scientist) is like asking a white man if blacks are still suffering discrimination. You can't know if you haven't experienced it or scientifically studied it.

My personal opinion is (barring instances of child abuse) it is genetic, it is a common and natural mutation like having a dimple or two different colored eyes. It just is - what's the big deal? Let me share my observation. I am a mother of 3. 1 girl (20) and two boys (9 & 10). And though I don't say it I believe my youngest boy is gay and doesn't know it yet. He is the complete polar opposite of his brother. He is feminine, likes girls things (toys, clothes, make-up, no I don't buy these things for him but he asks). He has been telling me he wished he was a girl since he was able to speak - literally, I'm not exagerating. He doesn't like his nails cut, he role plays girls parts, his friends are all girls. Now maybe there is somehting else here, some gender confusion. But there is no "problem" at home that would cause this - he has a brother 1 year older that is very much the typical boy (bugs, dirt, baseball - the works) and his sister is much older and in fact, has already moved out so she is not a huge influencer. It is just who he is, how he is and what he relates to. So, he may very well be gay - so what?! It is only a problem with those religous folks who think this "sin" is some how worse than any other. But as far as I know a sin is a sin - there are no levels of sin.

Your reply about the OT was just what I expected, and pre-addressed. Again...an opinion with a lack of information. The OT is not null and void. The OT/NT difference concerns "The Law vs Salvation thru grace". It's a "getting to heaven" issue. In the OT, people kept The Law in obedience to God. With the coming of Christ (outlined in the NT) and his redeeming death, burial and resurection, we no longer have to work at keeping all of the detailed laws, but can receive salvation by asking for forgiveness and accepting Christ as our Savior. Not to get "preachy", but that's the answer. So...that's why I included a NT verse. Many say "Well...if we don't have to follow the law, then the OT doesn't apply". It is not how we get to heaven, but still offers details on God's way. Hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by slank
Well, Im gay, and it wasn't a 'choice'.

Slank, I'm interested in your response. I'm not trying to bait you or browbeat you or anything; if you choose not to respond, then I won't take that as indicative of anything either way.

Part of my argument has been that consentual sex is, by definition, a choice people make. As far as what you feel drawn to, I am perfectly willing to accept that there may be underlying genetic or cultural forces at work in all our desires. But as far as individual sexual episodes are concerned, those are choices right? Do you see my logic?

I think that is where a lot of people are coming from with the idea that the orientation may be genetic, but a person's day by day choices are his to make.

In other words, gay people are not robots. They are moral beings (like heterosexuals) in that they chose when and where to have sex.

I curious as to how you'd respond to this line of thought.

Regards.
Dr. S.

dr_strangecraf, hi
a choice? Do you cooly intellectually will your male appendage to get hard? If YOU do i would be VERY surprised. Science would be very interested in you if this was the case.

Sex is like life. It is primal and fundamental, it does not have time for foolish moralities and codes of behavior. It comes from deep inside one's soul. When i am sexually excited the last thing i feel like is a robot (an animal perhaps). You expect gay people be 'moral robots', doing the things that YOUR animal instincts happen to enjoy naturally.

Ever thought of turning that on it's head? Imagine you are condemed by all society for being heterosexual. Imagine you are a 3 out of 100 people, a tiny minority. Having to hide you natural desire and passion, to keep from being verbally harrassed and possibly even physically assaulted. Then being told you made some TRIVIAL choice to do this or that you are DEMONICALLY possessed. Then having someone's religious condemnation thrown at you by people who blatantly and conveniently ignore EVERY OTHER EDICT of that same religion that THEY violate.

Walk a mile in someone else shoes. It is a great aid to expand the consciousness. The ability to imagine what it feels like to live inside someone else's life exercises the mind and gives one intellectual depth.

Try this one, Explain to me how you can be so [wierd, sick, evil, sinful] as to enjoy heterosexuality? (do you find that question to be a little offensive?)

Freenergy, I'm gay and I believe in God, lots of gay people do, just not your idea of him/her/it.

Gay men and women run the whole gamut of 'types' but society, especially aided by the media tend to focus almost exclusively on the screaming queens and bulldyke variety. Not that there's anything wrong with those types vive la difference as far as I'm concerned be who you are and enjoy it but the fact is that lots of queers are rather average looking/acting, giving the fact away more by what they say than anything else. I personally am whats known as a floating voter, ie, no one would drop dead of shock to discover I was or wasn't.

I was born gay and I grew up and CHOSE to act on it. If it pisses some people off tough!

Originally posted by lovemydvr
Many people get tired of the numerous Old Testament warnings about the topic, but it's not like we get to pick which parts of the bible to believe. It's all or nothing. Here are a couple...simply search Biblesearch.com or any other biblical website for tons more. But, these are pretty straightforward.

LEV 20:13 'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Romans 1:26 ... Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

And what about God is loving everyone, no matter what! In my opinion God is created by the humans, like any religion is created. And luckely the church doesnt have much influence anymore like the old days.

I can tell you that one's I believe in a God, I was rased catholic. But I choosed to stop that, because I cannot love God or any other religon, that want's me to live by certain rules which he/or the church thinks thats ok to live like.

[edit on 23/7/2004 by rai76]

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Here's my two bits. I have this urge to just put this out there. I know I won't change anyone's mind. Have the respect not to change mine.

Okay, I'm a christian as well and I'll try to explain to you why your reasoning makes no sense in a way.

I don't know of a single study showing an individual animal has been exclusively gay. Bi, yes. Exclusively gay, no. That makes me think it's human culture.

Then I suggest you search a little harder, the sheep study was just an example, as homosexuality can be detected in about every animal group.

There are two kinds of sex. Consenting and non-consenting. Consenting means you chose to have sex. non-consenting means you were raped. So I believe consenting sex is a choice, not something you were born with.

The act is a choice, who you feel attracted to is not. (what turns you on...)
I am straight and I can not choose to be turned on by man, neither can I choose not to be turned on by woman. I find it amazing that I have to explain this b t w, as it is as logical as 1+1=2.

Desire doesn't mean anything. I don't believe anyone can control their desires. (Right now, I want a martini. I'm drawn to it.) But you are responsible for your actions. You are responsible to and for the people you copulate with.

I am afraid your desire for a martini is something totally different from who you are attracted to in a sexual way. Comparisons like this just twist everything around, and make no sense whatsoever.

Once again, if it would be proven that gay people are born gay, what would this change?

[edit on 23-7-2004 by Jakko]

Originally posted by rai76
In my opinion God is created by the humans, like any religion is created. And luckely the church doesnt have much influence anymore like the old days.
[edit on 23/7/2004 by rai76]

Listen, I did not make this topic to start yet another "is christianity true" thread. I am a Christian myself, but please stick to the topic next time you post. Such comments just rip good discussions apart.

Originally posted by badkitty
Unless you are a doctor that has an opinion based on sound physical research I think it is absurd for a heterosexual person to try to determine whether homosexuality is genetic or chosen. Asking a hetero about this (who isn't a scientist) is like asking a white man if blacks are still suffering discrimination. You can't know if you haven't experienced it or scientifically studied it.

I think that's wrong.
Just like heterosexual people can find out wether their desire for woman is a choice/lifestyle or something they're born with, you can think about how this works with gay people.
Most likely in the exact same way?