Bible Answers to Member Questions

reply to post by sacgamer25

I’m not sure if I have seen an explanation but I would really like one from you. Why do you so strongly believe that God who is the creator of everything. A God of love and compassion would allow his word to be corrupted so that we may not be able to have the ability to truly know him.

Surely a God great enough to create man can preserve his message in a book. This seems like a very small accomplishment for God. But you who believe in Christ refuse to believe that a loving God preserved his message.

Sorry if this sounded like an attack, it was not meant that way. It just seems to me that many people feel the same way you do, and I can’t figure out why.

The "many people" may be people who care a lot about what they do or do not believe in. I have for three years been getting serious about figuring out what exactly is or is not in the Bible, as opposed to what beliefs are basically made up. After digging hard through the verses, I started to question what verses I was looking at were "made up" meaning written by other people after the fact, such as what I brought up on the last page of this thread, where letters of Paul just showed up decades after Paul was dead, looking as if they were written by him, and even in 2 Thessalonians where it says, 'Look here, I am writing this in my own hand, see how big the letters are? This way you know I actually wrote it (and not a forgery).'
The fact that I do believe in Jesus should be evidence that this message has been preserved. We have preserved what could be considered as historical documents that show what people believed in the time close to when Jesus lived on Earth. As researchers, it is up to us to asses these documents to see what we can arrive at as being close to the actual facts which is sometimes attempted to portray, and sometimes not, meaning there were attempts to misrepresent events for certain people's benefit, or to promote their own personal beliefs over what should be regarded as the core message of Jesus.

reply to post by sacgamer25

When you put all the context of the New Testament together this appears to be the message. But today we have idle teachers that expect to receive as their sole source of income, money from the church. So I’m not sure how you say that 2 Thessalonians increases church authority, when it actually appears to diminish it.

I was talking about this post: www.abovetopsecret.com...
where it is talking about keeping traditions.
Once Paul is dead, and people have set up a hierarchy with themselves in those positions they created, then it would be up to them to say what those traditions were, exactly.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I understand what you are saying but I think here is why we disagree. When you read traditions, you see this as a way for Church traditions, the ones that we see today as what they are talking about. And I think the Church has used verses such as these in that context.

The way I understand this verse would be the traditions of Christ and the Apostles. The ones that require all the members of the Church including the Elders, Pastors, to work with their hands to at minimum attempt to provide for themselves and their families without burdening the church. The traditions that our church meeting should at least at times include eating together, and include the breaking of bread and the taking of wine. The traditions where all members of the church should share their gifts and feel almost an obligation to participate, this would in my opinion be orderly but more of an open conversation where each takes turns sharing testimony.

So maybe this helps you and gives you a different understanding of some of the verses you question . I see this is the biggest problem, not the scripture itself but the way our modern church has translated the meaning.
I don’t think Paul could have been writing about any tradition other than ones I mentioned.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Anyone can say, "work for a living" and it will make sense to a lot of people, So What!
Get serious.
That's little bases to make it into "scripture".
This is just consolidation of the system. People supporting themselves and instead of being recipients of charity, they can become contributors so they can build churches and have payrolls for paid clergy and people can now fend for themselves, the opposite of the way Paul had arranged things.
People under Paul were not marrying if they could manage that way of life and not joining orgies, and some people gave up everything they had in preparation to be martyrs for Christ. Instead, you have fortresses with an elect hiding behind walls and making alliances with the world and the missionary effort get set aside and no one is getting killed because the whole movement has become lukewarm, and you applaud the whole thing, great!

I thank you all for your answers on the subject of tares. I may be trying (as usual) to read too much into the parable. It is an analogy, and analogies are always not-quite-perfect, for if they were, they would be the thing itself, and no longer an analogy. I thought things had settled down, so I could slip in a question, but now things are going back & forth again. Tradition? Sola Scriptura? Forgery? Men wrote the Bible? No, you all have not been paying attention, and I know of no one who has posted and told me that he/she did in fact check out the work of Ivan Panin.

It has become clear to me that the Hebrew alphabet has three levels of meaning, and the Greek, two (if not three). First, there is the level of phonetic meaning, letters for sound, making up the written words. Second, there is the level of number meaning, letters for numbers, for they had no separate set of symbols for numbers. What Ivan Panin found is that these numbers made up extremely complex patterns and sets, and that the complexity and coherence pointed to a high intelligence [read: More than Human]. These patterns connect the whole of the OT into a mathematically complete document that no man could forge. Still with me? The third level is the very ancient pictorial meaning, letters for ideograms. The classic here is how the pictographic meanings of the letters in the tetragrammaton tell us, "Behold the Nail, behold the Hand," so that we KNOW that Jesus is the God of the OT.

Now the Greek I don't know as well, but we all know it has the same phonetic level as Hebrew, and Panin found that it has the same numerical coding as the Hebrew, the Greek also lacking a separate set of symbols for numbers. If there is a pictorial level for Greek, I have not found it, but I am early in my search. The work of the Meru Foundation may hold some clues...

So listen up! IF any books were forged, the mathematical patterns (or lack thereof) would have been discovered by Panin. But no, the whole thing [OT/NT] is made of whole cloth mathematically, so just put aside this spurious business about forgeries, and men putting together the canon. Study Panin, for if you do, you'll finally have your head screwed on straight.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I actually hope one day to make a difference and in a loving way to challenge today’s church. I don’t applaud anything the church does. I have been to enough churches to know that I have yet to hear anything that leads me to believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit. They all seem to be after money. One cannot worship both God and money. Jesus said this plainly. So I think we are more in agreement than disagreement or maybe I don’t understand you.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


The question you asked about the Tares is "the great mystery" one that man has been trying to solve for over 1000 years. I would say trust that God's will is good for you and try to follow God's will, that would be where the Spirit leads you, and in all things love. This way you can be assured of your own salvation.

And for you I am glad that you came to the same conclusion as me about the entire bible. I have read a little just out of curiosity, but I had already come to this conclusion, so it was more interesting than faith finding for me.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

. . . Panin found that it has the same numerical coding . . .

I commented on this in the circle argumentation thread.
What I do is on-purpose look for books by serious biblical scholars on a PHD level from major accredited universities and seminaries because when I read things, it sort of embeds itself in my mind so I try not to put garbage in there and go to great lengths to keep out stuff that is wrong or just stupid.

reply to post by sacgamer25

I hope you realize I don't mean to be derogatory towards you in particular but use people's posts as a sort of platform to lecture from.

A lot of what was behind my feelings that were coming out in my post is based on what I have seen over fifty yeas happen to my own church.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

. . . Panin found that it has the same numerical coding . . .

I commented on this in the circle argumentation thread.
What I do is on-purpose look for books by serious biblical scholars on a PHD level from major accredited universities and seminaries because when I read things, it sort of embeds itself in my mind so I try not to put garbage in there and go to great lengths to keep out stuff that is wrong or just stupid.

So which way did you go with Panin? Did you imbed him or decide he was garbage/stupid?? Maybe I need to list his credentials.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


It's a big blank from what I can tell.
I did a couple hours of searching and all I came up with was that one item I posted, about the Radio Church of the Air having published his lectures as a book. Then it was picked up by that nutty preacher who NOTurTypical is always posting links to his videos.
There are no serious authors who have ever written about his theories.

reply to post by jmdewey60


cs.anu.edu.au...


cs.anu.edu.au...

Someone also wrote a program based in C that completely refutes panins claims...

I believe any mathmatician could debunk panin as his research... and theres much evidence that he also "cooked" his results to make them seem more accurate then they are.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


sacgamer25 and Laz--------Just curious, which "English" translation Bible do you think is perfect and without error? Since both you guys believe the Bible is preserved which I commend the both of you for. About time.

As for the others guys, I don't care which bible you like, don't bother replying.

------------All yeah, Madcat, I was amazed at your works based salvation plan you laid out with your attempt to explain tares and wheat. Good works out weighing your bad after you die.....do you really believe that is what will take you to heaven when you die?

-------As for the guy who posted a question in form of a video. Please post your question in text please. I didn't watch the video.

reply to post by KJV1611


That parable can be explained in a few ways, that was only one of them...

As for getting into heaven... everyone gets in without exception. Though once they arrive their work in this life will be judged...

Heaven isn't a place made just for so called christians... the afterlife is for everyone. What happens once we get to said afterlife is dependent on your recent incarnation

Talk to you soon im sure

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

sacgamer25 and Laz--------Just curious, which "English" translation Bible do you think is perfect and without error? Since both you guys believe the Bible is preserved which I commend the both of you for. About time.

As for the others guys, I don't care which bible you like, don't bother replying.

------------All yeah, Madcat, I was amazed at your works based salvation plan you laid out with your attempt to explain tares and wheat. Good works out weighing your bad after you die.....do you really believe that is what will take you to heaven when you die?

-------As for the guy who posted a question in form of a video. Please post your question in text please. I didn't watch the video.

I’m not 100% sure that any translation is perfect and without error as I do not know either the Greek or Hebrew language. I do believe that the message, the good news, the path to righteousness is 100% preserved by God in every translation. To me the most important things to God faith, repentance, belief in his son, doing God’s will, and a call to holiness, all appear to be well preserved in each translation.

I have found only a very few passages from different translations that make me look at other translations. Most of these passages have to do with the Church itself, so it would make since that the meaning was skewed towards pointing to today's church. But even in these translations the message remains intact because there are enough verses that point to the truth that it should be impossible to conclude anything out of only one slightly skewed verse. And to be honest I think I am more aware of these passages because I believe I am being called by God to help resurrect the biblical church.

I know you believe that only the KJV can be trusted, and you should always follow where the spirit leads you. My spirit leads me to be accepting of my fellow brothers attempt to translate. I usually read the NIV because it is the most widely used in the Church today. I do this to ensure that I use the same language as most of my brothers will use.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Uhm, one question.. if you will

what bibical church?

perhaps im misunderstanding here but didn't you say...

I have read a little just out of curiosity, but I had already come to this conclusion, so it was more interesting than faith finding for me

You plan to "resurrect" some bibical church, yet you haven't read the entire bible?

And just so you know... Gods church is within the heart... Its not a building. No man made building can contain God.... Nor can a book.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Uhm, one question.. if you will

what bibical church?

perhaps im misunderstanding here but didn't you say...

I have read a little just out of curiosity, but I had already come to this conclusion, so it was more interesting than faith finding for me

You plan to "resurrect" some bibical church, yet you haven't read the entire bible?

And just so you know... Gods church is within the heart... Its not a building. No man made building can contain God.... Nor can a book.

No you misunderstood; I was talking about reading about Panin. I have read the whole bible and read from it daily. Actually I have it on CD and it is the only thing I listen to while driving. Unless of course I give into my children and even then we mostly listen to a compilation of Christian worship music that I have put together. My children go to bed, and enjoy doing so, each night with the word of God playing.

You are correct the body is the temple of God, and his Holy Spirit does dwell in me.

What I am referring to is a simple gathering of believers. A gathering where all men in attendance should work with their hands to provide for their families. A group of believers that live humble lives where they share their excess with any brother in need. A gathering of people where all in attendance should share their testimony to the entire gathering. A church not dominated by an elder, simply guided by an elder or elders, who is/are very simply someone that through his fruit, his way of life and his family has demonstrated to all believers that he is living the words of Christ. A church that is not concerned with money or profit, where the value of money is not to provide a wage for its members but where the only value of money is what can be done to help those in need.

A group of people who understand there is only one King, one High Priest and one ruler, Jesus Christ the son of God, appointed by God to be all of these things. A meeting of believers who eat together at each other’s homes and take part in the breaking of bread and taking of wine in remembrance to the promise of the cross.

You know the church that both Christ and Paul were talking about. Not the big giant buildings where we listen to one person tell us how we must pay his wages each week in order to be closer to God. Since God lives in me, I am 100% sure that a building cannot bring me closer to God. And I also believe I get more out of ATS, where I truly fellowship with both believers and unbelievers, than I do spending one hour listening to the testimony of one.

double post

reply to post by sacgamer25


I would recommend looking at this for a minute, a couple times a week or something until you become familiar with it and can readily identify Greek letters and know how to pronounce words using them.
You can download MP3 files of the NT being read in Greek and it really helps to listen to it to identify words from it.
www.helding.net...
Listen to that, like the Gospel of John.
Then you can listen while you look at something like:
interlinearbible.org...
If you can follow along and end up at the end of the chapter in the right spot when the audio ends, then you are doing pretty good. This is the easiest way to get to know the NT that I know of.

*note: don't use the address on the bottom of the gif I posted since it is defunct and is used as something else, now.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Thats a wonderful dream bro...

Unfortunatly that is all it is... imho

Still i like the way you think... Though slighty cultish...