The Point of Jesus

Originally posted by tinfoilman

Originally posted by pplrnuts
Just for saying a few choice words despite their actions in life is ALL THAT THEY NEED to do to get ETERNAL PARADISE!!! What a joke.

Well what would you have people do to get eternal paradise? Jumping jacks? It's more than just a few words. You have to try your best to live to according to the rules. For example, you can't just say you forgive someone. You actually have to forgive them. Which means becoming a different person on the inside. Such that you could actually forgive someone.

The whole thing is about changing your heart. Not just saying a few simple words. You have to believe them too.

edit on 21-3-2011 by tinfoilman because: (no reason given)

WELL, if there even IS some unearthly "eternal paradise", I would believe that the ACTUAL TRUTH of obtaining it would be to LIVE AS A GOOD PERSON TO ALL those around you. No HATING, no JUDGING, no FIGHTING, no KILLING, etc, etc, etc.

Not simply by whispering a few choice words to oneself like the delusion that I assume you have fallen victim to (dont worry, you are not alone). Such assumptions are fully asinine but I TOO thought like that when I was a member of the JC cult. And believe you me, I was one DELUDED DEVOTED JESUS FREAK for a LONG TIME!!!!!!

...until I asked questions and read about the origins and past of religion and those beliefs that existed before the Abrahamic religions.

So being a good person equals WALKING THE WALK, and saying 'prayers" to "jesus" or some other Man-God is just a WHOLE LOT OF HOT-AIR!!! Talk is CHEAP, understand?

reply to post by pplrnuts


Do you think you're a good person then? You've never fought, argued with anyone, lied, judged, hated, gotten angry? Ever? That's pretty cool yo.

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by pplrnuts

 

Do you think you're a good person then? You've never fought, argued with anyone, lied, judged, hated, gotten angry? Ever? That's pretty cool yo.

edit on 21-3-2011 by tinfoilman because: (no reason given)

YES I HAVE, you are CORRECT!! That was when I was a typical devoted Christian!! Being 100% honest here.

Only then I didnt see it as WRONG!!!

Now I find that behavior as SICKENING, BIGOTED, INTOLERABLE, and HATEFUL!!

Now I am MUCH better suited for an unearthly "eternal paradise" if one existed.

MUCH better suited!!

reply to post by pplrnuts


Well the Bible says not to do that stuff. So what's up with that? Why didn't you listen if you were such a good Christian? That's the problem. Most people have a problem with Christians. Not what Jesus taught. But that's cause Christians don't like to practice what it says. But that's not the Bible's fault. If people just did what the Bible taught I don't think there'd be as much of a problem.

But anyway, if there was a paradise. How would you plan on getting into it? You've already violated your own rules. You said a good person shouldn't hate, get angry, lie, and all that. That's your own rules. That you made up. And couldn't even do that? No wonder people have so many problems with other people's rules. They can't even follow their own.

Tell me without forgiveness, if heaven existed, how would you get it? You've already broken the rules.

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by pplrnuts

 

Well the Bible says not to do that stuff. So what's up with that? Why didn't you listen if you were such a good Christian? That's the problem. Most people have a problem with Christians. Not what Jesus taught. But that's cause Christians don't like to practice what it says. But that's not the Bible's fault. If people just did what the Bible taught I don't think there'd be as much of a problem.

But anyway, if there was a paradise. How would you plan on getting into it? You've already violated your own rules. You said a good person shouldn't hate, get angry, lie, and all that. That's your own rules. That you made up. And couldn't even do that? No wonder people have so many problems with other people's rules. They can't even follow their own.

Tell me without forgiveness, if heaven existed, how would you get it? You've already broken the rules.

Must I point out to you where the bible says to RAPE, KILL, SLAUGHTER, HATE, and MUCH MORE???

It is YOU who havent been reading the bible I see!!!

Well open your dusty covered bible book up and get to reading!!

SIGH!!!

And the rest of your post is so asinine I dont have time to point it all out. Just read your "killing and hating manual" that you refer to as the Bible and learn yourself some things son.

BWHAHAHA!! Poor confused and deluded fella!! I used to be there though at one time!!

reply to post by pplrnuts


reply to post by pplrnuts


Hmm, you're just out to attack people. You're not out to actually debate and have a friendly conversation. That's unfortunate. I was having fun talking to you until I struck a nerve and you got angry I guess.

All I'm saying is that if the Bible didn't talk about forgiveness couldn't you easily turn right around and say what kind of unjust God would punish me eternally for ONE mistake? I only killed ONCE, I only stole ONCE, I only did this ONCE. What right does God have to send me to Hell for that? I've heard atheists make this argument.

So God turns around and says, okay. Well I guess that isn't fair. How about I forgive you. We'll make a whole new book to the Bible. Everyone makes mistakes. Let's move on and just become better people.

So, what do you do? What do the atheists do? They come in and that's BS! So, I can just get into paradise by saying a few words! That's BS!

In other words. No matter what the Bible said, either way, you wouldn't agree with it. Not because of what it says, but because of who's saying it.

Then you judge me, insult, and make fun, which should be against your own made up rule set that you can't even follow and then produce an Ad-homenium instead of just being friendly. I'm sorry, but how is that being a good person? Can't we just chat friendly?

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by pplrnuts

 

reply to post by pplrnuts

 

Hmm, you're just out to attack people. You're not out to actually debate and have a friendly conversation. That's unfortunate. I was having fun talking to you until I struck a nerve and you got angry I guess.

All I'm saying is that if the Bible didn't talk about forgiveness couldn't you easily turn right around and say what kind of unjust God would punish me eternally for ONE mistake? I only killed ONCE, I only stole ONCE, I only did this ONCE. What right does God have to send me to Hell for that? I've heard atheists make this argument.

So God turns around and say, okay. Well I guess that isn't fair. How about I forgive you. We'll make a whole new book to the Bible. Everyone makes mistakes. Let's move on and just become better people.

So, what do you do? What do the atheists do? They come in and that's BS! So, I can just get into paradise by saying a few words! That's BS!

In other words. No matter what the Bible said, either way, you wouldn't agree with it. Not because of what it says, but because of who's saying it.

Then you get judge me, insult, and make fun, which should be against your own made up rule set that you can't even follow and then produce an Ad-homenium instead of just being friendly. I'm sorry, but how is that being a good person? Can't we just chat friendly?

edit on 21-3-2011 by tinfoilman because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-3-2011 by tinfoilman because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-3-2011 by tinfoilman because: (no reason given)

Rant much over things that arent even there?!! What are you rambling about?! Jeeze.

So you do not dispute where I posted that your little 'Good Book' speaks nicely about such things like, umm, RAPE, HATE, BIGOTRY, KILLING, SLAUGHTERING, etc, etc, etc??

Get to reading already son, stop wasting time here and read your bible for god sakes.

And I am NOT an atheist by the way. The rest of your post is also asinine but I just had to comment on this point.

Just go read the bible son, ok?

reply to post by pplrnuts


Why are you attacking? Don't be a jerk. Why can't you just be friendly? I was just trying to point out that the Bible doesn't think a person should be punished forever for just one little mistake. Then you got all huffy. Do you just hate Christians?

You ask me what I'm rambling about? I was just asking if you wanted to chat as friends, or be friends or have a friendly conversation? You don't want to be friends. I guess that's cool. I just don't think it's rambling.

Originally posted by iheartprplkoolaid

"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6:14-15 "

So by this reasoning all we have to do is forgive people who piss us off and we are in the clear. Sounds like the only reasons for church are to give priests something to play around with at sunday school and a paycheck for the organ player.

One thing that happens when interpreting scripture is one must take into account who the letter, book, or quote was spoken to. Was it a letter to the gentiles? To the Jews? Was this statement made to the disciples? Mary? Or the unbelievers?? These are vitally important in a hermeneutic perspective.

So with that in mind, when you look at the audience of Matthew 6 Jesus is speaking to the believers. Not the rest of the world, it's not a universal statement. Christ is instructing His followers how to relate to God and to each other. If you want this verse to apply to you, the first step is to submit to the Lord, ask for His forgiveness for your sins. And by all means, make it a habit from that point forward to forgive all men for the wrongdoings they do to you. Not just because there is a heavenly reward, but here on Earth it's damaging to harbor bitterness and unforgiveness.

Hope this helps you friend.

Originally posted by ag893
Let's get something straight since I can see your clearly unintelligent and bias. There's a difference between Christians and Catholics. Get them straight before you go frothing off at the mouth about things you have no clue off.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

I'm quite sure some catholics would agree with you. But probably with different outcoming answers.

You are certainly setting the standards of self-righteousness, which many non-believers have come to expect from the extremist christianities.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by iheartprplkoolaid

One thing that happens when interpreting scripture is one must take into account who the letter, book, or quote was spoken to. Was it a letter to the gentiles? To the Jews? Was this statement made to the disciples? Mary? Or the unbelievers?? These are vitally important in a hermeneutic perspective.

So with that in mind, when you look at the audience of Matthew 6 Jesus is speaking to the believers. Not the rest of the world, it's not a universal statement. Christ is instructing His followers how to relate to God and to each other. If you want this verse to apply to you, the first step is to submit to the Lord, ask for His forgiveness for your sins.

going back to my origionaly post this still doesnt explain how religion is worth while at all. so if jesus isinstructing just his followers, then all you need to add is "you have to be a follower of jesus and forgive people and you will go to heaven." granted this is the whole point of religion. brainwashing people into believing things that are total garbage just because a bunch of crazy people who wrote stuff down in a book say so.

reply to post by iheartprplkoolaid


Well when you ask what's the point of religion there may not be any. Asking what's the point of religion is a different question than what's the point of Jesus or what's the point of church. After all, other religions don't have Jesus. So it would probably be best to start a new thread for that cause it's an entirely different question. Who knows what the point of all the religions are? That all depends on which religion you believe in or if you believe in any of them.

Asking what the point of Jesus is, your orig question, however is a different question and has to be asked in the context of Judaism or Christianity.

To understand the point of Jesus you have to look at it from the context of what Jesus changed about the religion and what he changed depends and how you perceive it. See, people no longer get stoned to death for adultery or things like that and don't have to pay a certain amount of money depending on which sin they committed and no longer have to sacrifice animals to the "gods" to pay for their sins. So the importance of Jesus was that he changed things about the religion. If the religion itself is pointless or not, that's an entirely different question.

See, Jesus was just like, nah, I'll take care of all that so you don't gotta do it anymore. Jesus was just like, "Hey guys, you don't have to do all that Jazz. Put the animals down! Just treat each other with love and respect instead! Well that was the general idea anyway. I mean regardless of if it worked or not, that was the idea anyway.

I mean you could say, religion is pointless and therefore church is pointless and therefore Jesus is pointless, but you could also turn around and say you're going to die one day anyway and nothing matters and say everything is pointless and blow your brains out too! I mean, in the end, does anything really have a point? It all depends on the context of the question.

reply to post by iheartprplkoolaid

going back to my origionaly post this still doesnt explain how religion is worth while at all. so if jesus isinstructing just his followers, then all you need to add is "you have to be a follower of jesus and forgive people and you will go to heaven." granted this is the whole point of religion. brainwashing people into believing things that are total garbage just because a bunch of crazy people who wrote stuff down in a book say so.

Other then the fact that religion might get you interested in reading the book for yourself....religion is useless.

Jesus wasn't instructing his 'follower" his instructions were for everyone who chose to listen. Adding a title to your name is pointless if you don't adhear to his laws, which are....Love God, and love your neighbour as you love your own soul..

The point of Jesus, was to show us the narrow path which few men follow, and (IMO) the crucifiction was to show the world that without a doubt, life after death is a reality.

reply to post by Akragon


You wrote:

["Jesus wasn't instructing his 'follower" his instructions were for everyone who chose to listen. Adding a title to your name is pointless if you don't adhear to his laws, which are....Love God, and love your neighbour as you love your own soul.. "]

Up to your usual high standards of non-interfering principles.

But:

Quote: [" The point of Jesus, was to show us the narrow path which few men follow,"]

Not to be nitpicking, but the difference between 'THE narrow path' and 'A narrow part' has had people killing each other for thousands of years. This is the essense of the monopoly-aspiration in especially certain parts of the christianities and abrahamic religion; whether it's organized or based on various scriptural collective or individual interpretations.

Quote: ["and (IMO) the crucifiction was to show the world that without a doubt, life after death is a reality."]

The IMO ofcourse softened the statement much, but I question, if "the world without a doubt is shown that life after death is a reality". It's not that I take an atheist stance in any of its forms, requiring a burden of proof, but there are quite a few competing religious claims on such matters, which equally rest on similar 'faith'-arguments. Arguments which eventually are doctrinal and circular.

It's a very big canvass you're talking about, and any "without a doubt"s at all are maybe not relevant or justifiable.

I hope you understand, that my opposition here only is academic.

reply to post by bogomil

Up to your usual high standards of non-interfering principles.

Im not sure exactly where this is comming from...these arn't my standards though i do try to adhear to them.

Not to be nitpicking, but the difference between 'THE narrow path' and 'A narrow part' has had people killing each other for thousands of years. This is the essense of the monopoly-aspiration in especially certain parts of the christianities and abrahamic religion; whether it's organized or based on various scriptural collective or individual interpretations.

No please "nitpick" away...

There is a difference between ones path in life and walking the narrow path... Regardless of who killed who over the controversy there is in fact One Narrow Path which is why i say "the" path or "the' way... I could care less what any religion tells you or others on the topic, though it is very simplistic.

if "the world without a doubt is shown that life after death is a reality". It's not that I take an atheist stance in any of its forms, requiring a burden of proof, but there are quite a few competing religious claims on such matters, which equally rest on similar 'faith'-arguments. Arguments which eventually are doctrinal and circular.

again my friend, i don't do religion. There is a vast difference between religion and spirituality.

I have no need of a Faith arguement as you say, this has nothing to do with faith... Reincarnation is a reality, and so is the spirit... Once you've actually experienced it for yourself, faith is not even an issue. IF you experience God on any level, you no longer have faith....you know beyond a doubt that "God" is real.

It's a very big canvass you're talking about, and any "without a doubt"s at all are maybe not relevant or justifiable.

I hope you understand, that my opposition here only is academic

Its very justifiable but unfortunatly no one can prove the existance of God to another, you have to experience it for yourself... If you did i garentee again "without a doubt" you would also understand how i do.

I understand your doubt and i have no problems with it, i only hople one day you too will understand what i mean

reply to post by Akragon


Thanks for your answer:

You wrote:

["I have no need of a Faith arguement as you say, this has nothing to do with faith... Reincarnation is a reality, and so is the spirit... Once you've actually experienced it for yourself, faith is not even an issue. IF you experience God on any level, you no longer have faith....you know beyond a doubt that "God" is real."]

If there's anything I avoid as the plague, it's getting into ANY variety of 'I'm holier than you'. I can and will only say, that I'm far from a novice in the experiental department.

In any case and on general lines, even on/at the experiental levels there are the same type of oppositional positions, as there are on the interpretation level.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Akragon

 

Thanks for your answer:

You wrote:

["I have no need of a Faith arguement as you say, this has nothing to do with faith... Reincarnation is a reality, and so is the spirit... Once you've actually experienced it for yourself, faith is not even an issue. IF you experience God on any level, you no longer have faith....you know beyond a doubt that "God" is real."]

If there's anything I avoid as the plague, it's getting into ANY variety of 'I'm holier than you'. I can and will only say, that I'm far from a novice in the experiental department.

In any case and on general lines, even on/at the experiental levels there are the same type of oppositional positions, as there are on the interpretation level.

Im sorry if i came across as saying "im holier then thou" that was not my intention in any case... you are no more or less then i am my friend. We are all equal...

True experience is always open to inturpretation but again, If you have experienced God in any sence of the word you would have no doubt as well. Its not even about experiments honestly... though i do say try everything to find out for yourself. Im sorry its hard to explain... Again you need to experience what God is to understand where im comming from.

reply to post by Akragon


Thanks for your gracious words, and by the way: Earlier we had a short exchange on non-interfering principles. My comment to you was meant as a compliment. Just in case.

You wrote:

["True experience is always open to inturpretation but again, If you have experienced God in any sence of the word you would have no doubt as well. Its not even about experiments honestly... though i do say try everything to find out for yourself. Im sorry its hard to explain... Again you need to experience what God is to understand where im comming from."]

As I said, I'm 'practically' familiar with, what you're talking about, and I understand, what you imply. If it's in accordance with thread topic, I can enlarge on the subject from a comparative basis (as when you talk about comparative religion studies), because that's the only way to approach the 'absolute'-aspect of any claims on it.

Originally posted by bogomil
reply to post by Akragon

 

Thanks for your gracious words, and by the way: Earlier we had a short exchange on non-interfering principles. My comment to you was meant as a compliment. Just in case.

You wrote:

["True experience is always open to inturpretation but again, If you have experienced God in any sence of the word you would have no doubt as well. Its not even about experiments honestly... though i do say try everything to find out for yourself. Im sorry its hard to explain... Again you need to experience what God is to understand where im comming from."]

As I said, I'm 'practically' familiar with, what you're talking about, and I understand, what you imply. If it's in accordance with thread topic, I can enlarge on the subject from a comparative basis (as when you talk about comparative religion studies), because that's the only way to approach the 'absolute'-aspect of any claims on it.

Thank you my friend. Sometimes its hard to distinguish between sarcasim and sincerity on this site

Please do "inlarge" on the subject at hand...

Seeing a topic from one point of view (the bible) rarely gets you the full picture. Especially when there are so many different views on this particular subject.

reply to post by Akragon


Now is night in my time-zone, so continuation tomorrow.