Chemtrail Debunkers....

reply to post by tommyjo

This results in conspiracy people filming routine helicopter movements and claiming that they are 'unmarked'. You Tube is full of them.

If the military deliberately conceal the markings then how is it a conspiracy?
Seems proven to me....

Originally posted by MathiasAndrew
reply to post by tommyjo

 

Are you kidding me TJ ?

What a complete waste of time. Why are you trying to post hoax videos?

Do you actually think those videos haven't been altered?

Do you really think people are that dumb?

Those videos are obvious fakes, the videos show short clips of "chemtrails" and then cut to old footage. There is no cohesion in the context of the video. The modern chemtrail footage had the color removed and was inserted through a very very poor cut job editing. Sound was removed in some cases.

Of course they are, Mathius? All done to keep the chemmies in check and sow doubt within the ranks? All done to discredit great Chemtrail Guru's like yourself Mathius, from revealing the truth. Mathius you should start a You Tube Channel like Jarrah White and put all this 'evidence' on tape.

That level of logic really does sum you up Mathius. And this comes from someone who can't even comprehend how he was duped by Craig Roberts using a faked image from a Water Ballast air test? Have you contacted Airliners.net yet to inform them that William Appleton has uploaded a faked image onto their website? This is why many people come to ATS - purely for the entertainment value. Thanks for the laughs, Mathius. Keep them coming!

Have you worked out the three trail aircraft video yet? Perhaps Tanker Enemy can assist you in your research into it?

TJ

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by tommyjo

 

This results in conspiracy people filming routine helicopter movements and claiming that they are 'unmarked'. You Tube is full of them.

If the military deliberately conceal the markings then how is it a conspiracy?
Seems proven to me....

I think it proves camouflage......

Military aircraft have only had small markings - serioal numbers usually - since the days when visutal recognition of friend and foe became a lot less important - say the mid 1970's.

I remember the first time I saw a USAF freighter in its "grey ghost" (dunno what the official term is) paint scheme & having to look damned hard for the star & bar! that would have been in the mid 1980's I guess.

Regulations for civil aircraft specify a minimum size for marks - but they are not very big - usualy on hte order of about 1 foot in height and letter-strokes at least 2" wide. Eg here's the FAA's size of registration marks rule - Part 45.29

Reg Marks are not there to identify the a/c from a long distance any more than your car's licence plate is for that purpose. they are there to identify the a/c to the regulators inspectors, the airline's mechanics, pilots, annorak plane-spotters, and other people who get up close to them.

They also often provide convenient call signs for radio communications whether you can see them or not - indeed using the a/c registration to identify your radio comms is specifically allowed by rule.

I hope that helps clarify what registration marks are.

reply to post by tommyjo



Did you miss the part where I said that the helicopters I saw didn't look very military at all? I like how your debunking extends past chemtrails and into anything anybody says that goes against official lines. very nice.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by tommyjo

 

This results in conspiracy people filming routine helicopter movements and claiming that they are 'unmarked'. You Tube is full of them.

If the military deliberately conceal the markings then how is it a conspiracy?
Seems proven to me....

They are low visibility markings in order to preserve the overall camouflage scheme. What part of that concept don't you understand? In the case of those UH-1s what is the point of them painting the aircraft dark green and then applying the stencils in white? Some units in peacetime painted a white buzz number on the front of the helicopter that would be removed or painted over in time of conflict.

The real conspiracy would be if they had no national insignia or identifying marks on them. The markings are there in order to comply with the Law of Armed Conflict. It is a treaty obligation of the signatories of the Geneva Conventions for them to carry identifying markings. The markings are still visible even if they are applied low-vis in order to preserve the camouflage scheme.

TJ

Originally posted by coyotepoet
reply to post by tommyjo

 

Did you miss the part where I said that the helicopters I saw didn't look very military at all? I like how your debunking extends past chemtrails and into anything anybody says that goes against official lines. very nice.

What do military helicopters look like?

Plenty of military types are derived from civil types and appear pretty much the same - eg

MH/OH-6 - from MD-500 series - variants are attack helicopters and "Special Ops"....but unless they are packing ATGM's they're jsut going to look like a "black" MD-500 from a distance

OH-58 Kiowa and the TH-67 - both from the Bell 206 Jet Ranger

And the UH-72 Lakota - from the Eurocopter EC145.

oh and were they spraying chemtrails??!!

I want to invite anyone who wants to try and discuss this topic more politely and respectfully with your fellow ATS members to please join this discussion thread also. I didn't make a new thread, it was made by someone else but it is only up to page 4 so far and I'm hoping we can try a new approach at discussion and keep it civil towards each other.

A case for chemtrails?, page 4
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by coyotepoet
reply to post by tommyjo

 

Did you miss the part where I said that the helicopters I saw didn't look very military at all? I like how your debunking extends past chemtrails and into anything anybody says that goes against official lines. very nice.

So the military can't use civilian looking helicopters? Can you think of any reason why a military unit might want to blend in and appear less conspicuous? The British Army 8 Flight unit uses Dauphin helicopters. They carry a military serial, but are painted in a non-military scheme in order to be less conspicuous. For example when deploying Special Forces in a terrorist situation.

www.airliners.net...

The Dauphins replaced Agusta 109s. Two of which were captured in the Falklands from the Argentine Army.

Note the comments on the images?

www.airliners.net...

www.airliners.net...

TJ

Originally posted by donatellanator
Let me just say after exhaustive research I have no conclusions. And that is the problem. No matter how much we dig and argue there is no definitive answer--and probably never will be until most of us are dead and gone.

Unless someone on this forum has a confession to make about adding chemicals to the fuel, or devising a device that can alter the weather or poison humans down below ... I see this as not really getting anyone anywhere.

I respect everyone's position on this, but sadly I can almost bet my life there will be no solution met here. Goodluck to everyone who will argue this until their fingers fall off. I commend you.

edit on 16-3-2011 by donatellanator because: argh, that's why

I recently heard as reported both in the scientific journals, and (a bit off but close) by the MSM, that the contrails from the many thousands of jet planes have had a greater effect on the atmosphere then, again this the MSM trying to report on observations but in uninformed way, any "intentional chemical deployment". Frankly, this does make enormous sense. Just the Co2 from all gas turbines now on Earth, is massive, you can't ignore it. The greater part of human actions and there effects on our environment is in my view unintentional ignorance, the end effect are much greater then all the perceived "conspiracies". But the end result is still what happens when intentional or not, you soil the nest of your self all of those who had no choice but to go along for the ride.

You want to be scared? This is no joke. China's unbridled industrialization. For the record, I support people having a better quality of life then their parents knew. It is a natural yearning that our species and often is by its own force of nature, I mean our basic drive's, usually the consequences of such, like the concept of ownership of property and free enterprise, are not anticipated by dictators, but to me thats a good thing. It's only when the people get the "central planners" off their back do they (dictators, and like-twits) get very nervous... But China has almost no controls on industry. Last time and this a very long time ago but after the unofficial dumping of Mao's idiocy, I was in what then was Peking, I got off the plane, and my face hurt. The air pollution was that bad then. Now they are sharing, with no ill intent to us but because of prevailing winds this toxic crap now shower's on us in the western hemisphere, that includes of course the United States. And since thats where I live, I just thought you should know.

reply to post by MathiasAndrew


Mathius,

If you think that old newsreels are being manipulated then you must also believe that still images are too? Here is someone that you can correspond with? Remember he isn't 'buying' it! The date, the date!!!!!

Save us from this ignorance!



TJ

reply to post by arbiture


The issues you address were examined in investigations and tests of soil and air samples in California. In the video below Rosalind Peterson, at the time was a U.S.D.A. Farm Service Agency Crop Loss Adjuster in CA. Discusses how the air pollution from China was not the cause for the anomalies being found in the soil. The tests of air samples near the coast and inland showed that foreign or local air pollution could not be the cause. The conclusion they came to was that the source was most likely from jet aircraft emissions or atmospheric aerosol injecting.

Rosalind Peterson of California Skywatch was a certified U.S.D.A. Farm Service Agency Crop Loss Adjustor working in more than ten counties throughout California. She now spearheads a watchdog group that monitors uncontrolled experimental weather modification programs, atmospheric heating and testing programs, and ocean and atmospheric experimental geoengineering programs Peterson is at the forefront of the chemtrail research field and how the unexplained patterns that scar our skies are "causing detrimental human health effects and environmental degradation."

reply to post by MathiasAndrew


Rosalind Peterson's tests were not outside the norm in the first place - see Barium has always been in water at Contrail Science.

Hey Mathius,

I would like you to have a look at this website: science-edu.larc.nasa.gov... which is a website which explains contrails in all different shapes and forms.

Here are some pics of your so called "Chemtrails"



A little description of this contrail:

This is a fairly common sight on the East Coast, where lots and lots of airplanes fly between the major cities of the Eastern Seaboard. However this photo captures a wonderful display of these contrails, showing them at various stages of "spreading".

and here..

This photo shows a series of contrails creating a cross-hatch pattern across the sky. It was taken in spring 2004 near the town of Chartres, France. This is not too far from Paris. This interesting pattern is likely a result flights from the UK to Europe on the one hand; and within continental Europe on the other. Thanks to Didier for contributing this photo.

Now, before you ask the question "Wheres the study". I would like to point out that the definitions of these contrails are coming from scientists such as Dr. Lin Chambers, heres a little background:

Dr. Lin Chambers began her interest in clouds, airplanes, and contrails as a child when she flew to and from Europe with her family. She has pursued this interest in her job since 1994 as a member of the Clouds and the Earth's Radiant Energy System (CERES) team. This team is responsible for 5 CERES instruments currently in Earth orbit. They study the effect of clouds on energy transfer in the Earth System, and on our climate. Lin has three degrees (Bachelor's, Master's, and PhD) in aeronautical and aerospace engineering. She spent 10 years working on modeling heat transfer to spacecraft entering planetary (including Earth!) atmospheres before that. She recommends learning as much as you can about math and computers, so that when those new and exciting opportunities arise you will have the skills to pursue them.

You can find the rest of the team and their credentials by clicking on the "Team Page" link.

My question to you is, why would any of these scientists put their name to this contrail website which clearly shows that persistant and spreading contrails can be scientifically explained. Do you think they are paid to do so? that they would risk their entire lifes credentials for a few bucks?

Looking forward to hearing your response on this..

Cheers

reply to post by Maximus187


Look at all the cool cloud propaganda...:..Here look I have some too


Kiwi kids cloud identification guide.
science-edu.larc.nasa.gov...

reply to post by MathiasAndrew


So what? I don't see the point in you posting that.. are you avoiding the question at hand? If you think its crap then how about you give an explanation. (No youtube videos, please)

reply to post by MathiasAndrew


Which states, in part:

● Short Lived Contrails do not stay in the sky very long.
● Persistent Non-spreading Contrails stay in the sky for a long time.
● Persistent Spreading Contrails also stay in the sky a long time, but will widen
after the plane has passed. Any Contrail wider than your index finger when
held at arm’s length is likely to be Persistent spreading.

so now you are presenting evidence that persistant contrails are "just" man made cirrus clouds!!

Are you sure you wanted to do that? 'cos it seems to counter all your other arguments!

and:

Contrail Facts

Altitude Range: Form above 8000 m.

Composition: Ice crystals.

Formation: Contrails are formed when particles from aircraft jet engines mix with the water vapour in the air. The water vapour condenses and freezes around the particles causing long white trails across the sky. For Contrails to form there needs to be a lot of moisture in the air at the altitude the plane is flying.
Associated Weather: Contrails indicate the level of humidity at high altitudes.

Did you know: A Contrail is a man-made Cirrus cloud.
Persistent Contrails can remain in the sky long after the aircraft has gone.

Which is pretty much what "we" have been saying the last 15 years - are you now a believer in the science??

reply to post by Maximus187

why would any of these scientists put their name to this contrail website which clearly shows that persistant and spreading contrails are a natural occurence

Lots and lots of money.

Natural occurrence? Persistent contrails are hardly a natural occurrence.

Originally posted by Maximus187
My question to you is, why would any of these scientists put their name to this contrail website which clearly shows that persistant and spreading contrails are a natural occurence. Do you think they are paid to do so? that they would risk their entire lifes credentials for a few bucks?

Looking forward to hearing your response on this..

Cheers

Your argument can not stand in the light of history.

Insanity and cruelty comes in all forms even the top scientists.

The people being studied died.

They were never told they had syphilis, nor were they ever treated for it....

"For the most part, doctors and civil servants simply did their jobs. Some merely followed orders, others worked for the glory of science."

— Dr John Heller, Director of the Public Health Service's Division of Venereal Diseases

Shall I mention radiation experiments which the government only admitted years after those affected had died. They lied and covered it up for decades... start at min 2:26 an the video where he talks about experiments on civilians without their knowledge or consent. There was a history channel show that highlighted this also.

Elmer Allen was even diagnosed a paranoid schizophrenic because he told people he was used as a human test subject and they denied it to the day he died and beyond only years later coming clean. Our government did this evil, it is no conspiracy. Here's a dot gov site referenceing: link. This was just "conspiracy" and those exposing it were even officially labeled "paranoid schizophrenic" until it was revealed by our government!

Or how about MK ULTRA where they used trauma based mind control (i.e. tortured them until they literally went crazy) and destroyed countless lives? We will never know how many because the records were destroyed. Many of the top scientists of the day including the head of the World, and American psychological associations was involved.

Donald Ewen Cameron (24 December 1901 - 8 September 1967),[1] commonly referred to as "D. Ewen Cameron" or "Ewen Cameron," was a twentieth-century Scottish-born psychiatrist who was involved in the United States Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA's) research on mind control[2] and served President of the Canadian, American and World Psychiatric Associations, the American Psychopathological Association and the Society of Biological Psychiatry during the 1950s.

link

I could go on and on. But our history as a nation is replete with examples of EVIL science being carried out WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT on human test subjects. They do it for many reasons. Money being just one. In the end it does not mater. It is all evil.

So when they deny there is anything going on now, I don't believe them.

reply to post by pianopraze


So the team of scentists who put their name to this are all mad? thats pathetic

Originally posted by Maximus187
reply to post by pianopraze

 

So the team of scentists who put their name to this are all mad? thats pathetic

If evil is madness, then yes.

Most times evil is done in the name of good.

They often call it a "necessary evil" which tragically can't be avoided...