Signs From Above - Another Look

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

Jesus came and told us that if you believe there is any other authority above your own knowing then you have sinned. A misjudgment.

Could you quote the chapter and verse it always matters to read before and after the verse to get full understanding.

I'd like to see that verse as well...

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

My questions to you about sin relate to the statement you made here:

Even if someone claims they are preaching the gospel, that doesn't necessarily mean it is the real gospel. For the gospel to be genuine, certain things must be in place. And one of those things is the acknowledgment that everyone has sinned.

What I am hoping to understand is what kind of christian gospel exists which does not aknowledge that we have sinned, according to your definition of sin.

Anyone that claims we are sinless, is not of God. Anyone that does not acknowledge The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, are not of God. This is as far as I will go to tell you what is truth and what is not. The rest is up to you to be alert and keep watch for these signs.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

Jesus came and told us that if you believe there is any other authority above your own knowing then you have sinned. A misjudgment.

Could you quote the chapter and verse it always matters to read before and after the verse to get full understanding.

I'd like to see that verse as well...

I know where this post is coming from and it is in the bible, it is always a good rule to read what is before and after to get the full meaning of the scriptures.

Are you interested to know or to judge?

reply to post by hawaii50th


If the Father the son and the holy spirit are all the same thing...all part of the one, then if someone just believes in God wouldn't that be the same thing?

Why would that person not be of God?

Would you condem that person for having a different view?

reply to post by hawaii50th


I don't judge my friend, i would just like to see the quote...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

If the Father the son and the holy spirit are all the same thing...all part of the one, then if someone just believes in God wouldn't that be the same thing?

Why would that person not be of God?

Would you condem that person for having a different view?

No just believing in God is not enough, you need to recognize and understand the Holy Trinity. Go back and read all my post to mysticnoon.
No, I would not condemn anyone, it is not my right to condemn or judge, Jesus Christ will do that on the day of judgment.

reply to post by hawaii50th


I understand the trinity...

I was just asking a quesiton...

reply to post by Akragon

If the Father the son and the holy spirit are all the same thing...all part of the one, then if someone just believes in God wouldn't that be the same thing?

If you understand the Trinity, than why were you asking this question? I must be missing something here?

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by Akragon

 

If the Father the son and the holy spirit are all the same thing...all part of the one, then if someone just believes in God wouldn't that be the same thing?

If you understand the Trinity, than why were you asking this question? I must be missing something here?

Its all a part of God... just a different label.

I was looking for your point of view...

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by Akragon

 

If the Father the son and the holy spirit are all the same thing...all part of the one, then if someone just believes in God wouldn't that be the same thing?

If you understand the Trinity, than why were you asking this question? I must be missing something here?

Its all a part of God... just a different label.

I was looking for your point of view...

edit on 19-3-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

What other labels are there?

reply to post by hawaii50th


It seems that my questions to you lacked definition and clarity.

I wasn't asking for an elaboration of those biblical passages, I was questioning how they can be reconciled with the common Christian proclamation of salvation.

To be more specific, in an earlier post, you said:

That is why Jesus Christ died on the cross, He took all the sins of the world upon Himself as a sacrifice, He became the sacrificial lamb. So that through believing in Him we can be forgiven of all our sins. When we accept that, we become free of the eternal death which is the soul being separated from God at our physical death.

However, the Bible infers that a person who is attached to their material wealth cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, (the eye of the needle analogy) and neither can someone who is more in love with their own families than with Christ (your heart is where your treasure lies).

So my question is, if you believe in Jesus and have faith in Him, and try your best to follow him, but you have a weakness such as being attached to money, will you still be saved and go to heaven?

Jesus said quite unequivocally that such a person would have no chance to enter the kingdom of God, and yet most christians insist that having faith in Jesus and repenting for your sins is enough to guarantee entry into heaven.

The same for loving your family, if you love them more then Jesus, than you are not worthy of him, and your heart is where your treasure lies. So even if you have faith in Jesus, and are generally a "good Christian", you may not be found worthy of entering heaven.

Then there is the sin against the Holy Ghost, which is yet another situation where a christian may not receive salvation.

There are more examples throughout the Bible where it suggests that an otherwise faithful Christian cannot enter Heaven if they have various weaknessness. I have read somewhere that such a Christian would be cleansed of their sins after death and made worthy of heaven, or something to that effect. However, if this is the case, why would Jesus raise these issues at all, if in the end all believers receive the same entry into heaven?

I am sure that the answers for all of my questions have long ago been worked out by the Christian biblical scholars, but for me these apparent contradictions leave wide gaps in coherence, lucidity, and flow of comprehension which are not easily patched by abstruse references elswewhere in the Bible. There is altogether too much room for manouvering and interpretation, as is surely evidenced by the huge number of christian denominations.

(My biblical knowledge is hazy and sparse at best, so apologies for any mistakes in my posts.)

Originally posted by hawaii50th

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by hawaii50th
reply to post by Akragon

 

If the Father the son and the holy spirit are all the same thing...all part of the one, then if someone just believes in God wouldn't that be the same thing?

If you understand the Trinity, than why were you asking this question? I must be missing something here?

Its all a part of God... just a different label.

I was looking for your point of view...

edit on 19-3-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

What other labels are there?

christian, muslim, orthodox, jew... etc etc...

reply to post by hawaii50th

Anyone that claims we are sinless, is not of God. Anyone that does not acknowledge The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, are not of God. This is as far as I will go to tell you what is truth and what is not. The rest is up to you to be alert and keep watch for these signs.

I think we are having quite a lapse in successful communication.

You previously spoke about a preacher whom you accused of preaching a counterfeit gospel because he didn't want to talk about sin. I was asking what is this counterfeit gospel, which version of the Bible is it?

Originally posted by mysticnoon
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

Anyone that claims we are sinless, is not of God. Anyone that does not acknowledge The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, are not of God. This is as far as I will go to tell you what is truth and what is not. The rest is up to you to be alert and keep watch for these signs.

I think we are having quite a lapse in successful communication.

You previously spoke about a preacher whom you accused of preaching a counterfeit gospel because he didn't want to talk about sin. I was asking what is this counterfeit gospel, which version of the Bible is it?

You misunderstood what I said earlier. If Jesus Christ is not the center of a gospel, than it is a counterfeit gospel.
God the Father of all the earth and the universe, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, what does that mean, Lord and Savior? and the Holy Spirit.
Now if this is not confessed and believed in, than you have a counterfeit gospel, religion, belief. And it is in whatever book that counterfeit gospel is holding.
I feel as though you are trying to corner me into a situation of judgment. If this is your intention, I will not fall for it, I do hope that this is not what you are trying to accomplish, I hope that my view of your integrity and honor-ability stands.
From my own words I will let you figure it out for yourself.

reply to post by mysticnoon

I wasn't asking for an elaboration of those biblical passages, I was questioning how they can be reconciled with the common Christian proclamation of salvation.

By accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

However, the Bible infers that a person who is attached to their material wealth cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, (the eye of the needle analogy) and neither can someone who is more in love with their own families than with Christ (your heart is where your treasure lies).

So you misunderstand what it means to accept Christ as Lord and Savior? If you understand than you would know that you would no longer put material wealth ahead of Christ, you would know how to use that wealth to glorify God, using it wisely and not to make wealth your god. Knowing that would free you and allow you to receive salvation.
Putting Christ first also would set you free in knowing that your family is safe and protected by God, and yet you still love your family. Because of your faith you love your family in a more perfect way. Now the blessing is not only on yourself, but also your family as well.

So my question is, if you believe in Jesus and have faith in Him, and try your best to follow him, but you have a weakness such as being attached to money, will you still be saved and go to heaven?

Once you have accepted Christ into your heart, you will no longer want to love money as you did. And if you fall into that weakness you will always realize that and will always ask for forgiveness in your weakness, and ask for strength to change that in you. Once you receive Christ and continually pray for the strength to change from your old self you will always have salvation. Accepting Jesus washes away sin, you are a new person in Jesus Christ.

Jesus said quite unequivocally that such a person would have no chance to enter the kingdom of God, and yet most christians insist that having faith in Jesus and repenting for your sins is enough to guarantee entry into heaven.

This is a constant virtue and a thing that we strive for everyday, just because you accept Christ doesn't mean that you now go on your merry way and continue to sin without repentance everyday of your life.
There must be change in your life, for once you were asleep, but now you are awake and now know when you do wrong, you have become aware that you are a sinner and need forgiveness. We confess to the Lord everyday for the forgiveness of our sins, and He forgives us.
We learn to avoid making the worst sins, but we still make mistakes, we just don't commit the mortal sins which are the seven deadly ones.

Then there is the sin against the Holy Ghost, which is yet another situation where a christian may not receive salvation.

This as I have said before is the one where you completely reject God right to death. If you have not accepted Christ at this point after death, and you think that you can still enter heaven, then you are seriously mistaken anyone thinking this is seriously mistaken.
God will come to you in that last hour of your life for you to accept Him giving you that chance because of His love for you.

The simple reality to the question of salvation no matter what Christian denomination it is, is having faith to trust and believe in God, to accept through and in faith, that Jesus Christ died for all of us, and to accept Him(Jesus) as your Lord and Savior. Once you accomplish that, all will be opened to you as you walk in your new faith.

reply to post by hawaii50th

You misunderstood what I said earlier. If Jesus Christ is not the center of a gospel, than it is a counterfeit gospel.

You are right, I did misunderstand. The word "gospel" threw me, as I usually only associate it with biblical scipture.

God the Father of all the earth and the universe, Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, what does that mean, Lord and Savior? and the Holy Spirit.
Now if this is not confessed and believed in, than you have a counterfeit gospel, religion, belief. And it is in whatever book that counterfeit gospel is holding.

OK, I now see what you are saying. I am not in a position to know, definitively, what is counterfeit and what is genuine. All I can do is compare other religious teachings to my own beliefs, and notice where they differ.

I feel as though you are trying to corner me into a situation of judgment. If this is your intention, I will not fall for it, I do hope that this is not what you are trying to accomplish,

I am sorry that you have this concern. I can assure you that I would not be spending precious time discussing these matters with you if I didn't have a measure of innate respect for your beliefs, even where I disagree and question them.

I have a fondness for philosophy and discussion of spiritual subjects, and I find posing questions and challenges to people who hold different beliefs to my own helps me to understand their own perspective as well as clarifying my own view.

The Christian perspective fascinates me because it is founded on an edifice of faith without the bedrock of reason, at least in my opinion. Sometimes I envy the depth of faith you profess, even while I am not prepared to surrender my reason.

I hope that my view of your integrity and honor-ability stands.

That is also my hope. I like to think that I have the highest regard for personal integrity, but I am probably the last person to be able to see myself with clarity in this instance.

reply to post by mysticnoon


I am so glad that you are authentic in your interest, I thank you. Yes Christianity is beyond our own human reasoning, and to me that's the beauty of it. God is an awesome and wonderful God. When we look at all the life here on earth, and how nature works, the moon where it is placed, all the planets and how they help with the function of the earth, how the sun burns and allows life at this specific spot in our solar system. It's all very mind boggling really. The amount that man has learned and understands is so minuscule compared to what else is in the oceans, under the surface of the crust and mantle, out among the stars, it just blows me away.

If your interested, here's another interesting read, called, "The Book of Enoch" it's about the good and fallen angels, also from what I understand of what I read, it's like Enoch was taken up into what is described as the heavens.
He starts off talking about the fallen ones that are called the "watchers" and how they left their position of heaven and saw the daughters of men how beautiful they were and fell to the temptation of lust. It's a mind blowing account.
If I read it right, it's like he's telling the story of what angels are in charge of the celestial bodies in the universe.

Book Of Enoch
reluctant-messenger.com...

reply to post by hawaii50th


The whole message is that there is no authority above your own knowing. Have no idols, make no images of god.
How can some bloke from the past die for our sins? If that was the end of it, the reason Jesus came, why do people still suffer? Why do we still believe in sin, when Jesus came and freed us?
His message was, you are the boss!! This is why the authorities killed him, they don't want you to know this.
The original sin is believing that you can be separate from god. This is the only sin. Jesus was a prophet, he had seen the truth and was trying to tell people to wake up and see the truth.
All other sin is caused by the original sin. This original sin, believing you are separate from god, gives power to others, who then use the word sin as a threat and punishment.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by hawaii50th

 

The whole message is that there is no authority above your own knowing. Have no idols, make no images of god.
How can some bloke from the past die for our sins? If that was the end of it, the reason Jesus came, why do people still suffer? Why do we still believe in sin, when Jesus came and freed us?
His message was, you are the boss!! This is why the authorities killed him, they don't want you to know this.
The original sin is believing that you can be separate from god. This is the only sin. Jesus was a prophet, he had seen the truth and was trying to tell people to wake up and see the truth.
All other sin is caused by the original sin. This original sin, believing you are separate from god, gives power to others, who then use the word sin as a threat and punishment.

edit on 21-3-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Where do you get this idea of sin from?
Jesus came so that all may be freed from original sin and have redemption, salvation through His sacrifice. Jesus died for us, He is the new covenant between all of us and God.

reply to post by hawaii50th


You wrote to mysticnoon:

["Yes Christianity is beyond our own human reasoning, and to me that's the beauty of it. God is an awesome and wonderful God. When we look at all the life here on earth, and how nature works, the moon where it is placed, all the planets and how they help with the function of the earth, how the sun burns and allows life at this specific spot in our solar system. It's all very mind boggling really. The amount that man has learned and understands is so minuscule compared to what else is in the oceans, under the surface of the crust and mantle, out among the stars, it just blows me away."]

This is ofcourse all very poetic and IMO also very demagogic, as it has practically no relevance to anything outside your mindset.

Getting down to earth, where a majority of mankind doesn't share your specific extremism, you STILL use this religious babbling to justify attitudes of fascist derogation of minorities.

If you for a moment could skip your preaching and answer questions straight, I have the (im)pertinent questions of:

Are you a bible cherry-picker or totality'ist,

A bible-literalist or symbolist,

How far do you practically acknowlegde secular law, when it conflicts with your interpretation of divine law as presented straightforward in the bible.