Whining Teachers and Unions.

Originally posted by Snoopy1978
reply to post by Realtruth

 

See why I'll never be president? Not corrupt or sociopathic enough.

But you would be paid so well and the benefits I hear are tremendously rewarding, then you would have to go to in for a removal of emotions, compassion, be able to lie without flinching, pretend to be more important than everyone else and given 10 million to start your campaign.


I am with you a 100% they couldn't give me a political position.

Originally posted by Qcuailon
reply to post by Realtruth

 

You represent everything that has collapsed this country into the ground. Its quite obvious that you are a complete corporate shill running your mouthpiece just for the sake of praising your masters.

One day, guys like you will be hunted down and executed. Mark my words. Personally, that will give me no joy whatsoever, but, your breed will be eliminated. This is not a threat, I'm just looking at the projection and calling the shots as they will come.

I think your post lacks ATS etiquette and may violate the T&C as well.

I can assure you I am far from corporate structure these days, in fact I am nearer to the 35 million on foods stamps, so my opinions are based on people taking personal responsibilities and banning together.

When there is no money concession have to be made during those time, I am doing it right now, living it.

When I hear teachers making 60k to 100k with benefits, then complaining to take a pay cut then I have a problem.

Do I think they should have their collective bargain rights taken away, absolutely not.

reply to post by Realtruth


I don't know what fictitious world you live in, but, farming has been outsourced with manufacturing. WAKE UP youngster. You are one of the most uninformed people on this site and as you mouthpiece continues it shows how much education you've actually benefitted from in this country. No wonder you're against the teachers, you're an adult with the education of a kindergartener.

And you say that people cannot see past the "sides" they stand on.

What side do YOU stand on? Its apparent that you're for bigger business and corporations. Its apparent that you care very little about the people who made this country what is was. So, please answer...

Who's side are you on? Yep, I'll agree, a divide and conquer tactic is being used, and so far, you seem to be supporting the division from where the money flows. Its amazing to me that you can point out that the country is broke, but completely forget that Big Business still flourishes.

I'll ask again...who's side are you on?

reply to post by Realtruth


I think your post lacks intellect, is short sided, and has virtually no meaning to it other than support that which needs none. Big Business doesn't need your blathering and undying support to succeed, its doing fine. Its the American tax payer that suffers.

Keep bowing to your masters...it obviously suits you.

Originally posted by Qcuailon
reply to post by Realtruth

 

I don't know what fictitious world you live in, but, farming has been outsourced with manufacturing. WAKE UP youngster. You are one of the most uninformed people on this site and as you mouthpiece continues it shows how much education you've actually benefitted from in this country. No wonder you're against the teachers, you're an adult with the education of a kindergartener.

A little FYI for you, by your tone. I have seen people like you come and go on ATS, mostly get banned. Name calling shows lack of character, and someone that wants to control a situation or argument.

But I will address your comment. Farming has not been replaced by manufacturing, in fact we have lost both of these vital industries in the USA, hence the situation we are in today.

We need to produce something again here in the USA and not just shuffle papers, this will give way to jobs for the middle class, then money will flow, until then it's a downward spiral.

Originally posted by Qcuailon

Its the American tax payer that suffers.

I guess you did not read my posts thoroughly, your supporting my opinions.

Or you are just trolling ATS.

Teachers in my opinion should not be able to have unions I will explain. If you have a teacher that is in a union and that teacher is really poor at teaching guess what, they will not lose their job. Unlike the private sector. I have personally seen it with my local school systems. Not saying it happens everywhere but I would comfortably guess it does. With the unions their is a reduced risk of being held accountable when the quality of work is lacking, and that goes for all union jobs. I can bet everyone here has seen it many times or know of certain people that only have a job because their unions are protecting them even though they have a poor work ethic and may be lacking in their job performance. I don't hate unions I used to belong to one even my wife is going to school to become a teacher and will eventually be in the situation where she will be unionized. But the stranglehold some of these unions have on their employers is really ridiculous. There is almost no way to root out the bad apples with that kind of system and their is no drive for people to do their job better because of no accountability twords job performance. I may be wrong in all of this but with the limited knowledge I do have on the subject perhaps someone can clarify my thoughts and let me know if what I have determined from an outsiders opinion is accurate.

reply to post by Realtruth


60-70K...is that alot to you?

How about the average CEO earning past 250K. How about the average professional athlete earning past 5 million per season for bouncing a ball up and down a court. I don't hear you complaining about that. You want to complain that the people responsible for the quality of our education are getting paid 60-70k (By the way, the only people who make that type of money are COLLEGE PROFESSORS) and say nothing about a moron such as Labron James earning past 25 million for being a goon who can shoot a bucket?

How about the wall street fools who sunk our country and are still paying each other bonuses as a result?

If it were up to me, a CEO would earn 25K. A professional athlete of the highest caliber would earn 15K, and the teachers would earn 300K + anything else that they need to perform their duties to their fullest. Without education, none of this stuff exists. Without quality education, the means to be innovative and inventive are lost. Keep cutting our education and watch guys like Japan and China surpass us and then put us on our collective asses.

Your priorities are screwed.

By the way, if I come and go...so be it. If I get banned...that wouldn't be the worst thing that has ever happened to me. But, if I listen to someone rag on the rights of Americans like I have heard you do, I wouldn't feel quite right not speaking my mind. Sometimes we risk being banned for standing up for what we believe in.

Originally posted by Qcuailon
reply to post by Realtruth

 

60-70K...is that alot to you?

How about the average CEO earning past 250K. How about the average professional athlete earning past 5 million per season for bouncing a ball up and down a court. I don't hear you complaining about that. You want to complain that the people responsible for the quality of our education are getting paid 60-70k (By the way, the only people who make that type of money are COLLEGE PROFESSORS) and say nothing about a moron such as Labron James earning past 25 million for being a goon who can shoot a bucket?

How about the wall street fools who sunk our country and are still paying each other bonuses as a result?

If it were up to me, a CEO would earn 25K. A professional athlete of the highest caliber would earn 15K, and the teachers would earn 300K + anything else that they need to perform their duties to their fullest. Without education, none of this stuff exists. Without quality education, the means to be innovative and inventive are lost. Keep cutting our education and watch guys like Japan and China surpass us and then put us on our collective asses.

60 to 70 k yes it is allot these days, since the country is in what many think to be a depression and tax payers are suffering.

No argument with me on CEO's, Wall street, actors, pro athletes, politicians and the bankers.

You again did not read my post thoroughly. you are preaching to the choir here.

In bad times the money needs to come from somewhere, ( your own words "suffering tax payers"), if the money is not there where does it come from, since we are a tax based society and in an economic resecession?

reply to post by Realtruth


Alright then, I will back up and apologize if you are in agreement of what I am speaking of. And trust me, that's a rarity around here.

However, personally, I am tired of watching the big guy (corporate interests) consistently win out against the people, and if it continues, eventually there will be conflict. Lets hope that things can improve without the conflict though.

Originally posted by Realtruth

Money comes from somewhere, when salaries and budgets are based on a certain amount of money, then a certain amount of wages can be paid. Now, if that certain amount is cut in half, then the amount of the salaries and budgets have to be cut in half. Simple math folks.

What you claim to be "simple math" is only simple to simple minded people. You're right that "money comes from somewhere," but what you failed to mention was that it damn sure doesn't come from where it isn't. If the middle class is broke, then why try to extract it from them? Seems to me that it would make more sense to attempt to extract the money from where it actually is, which is currently in the hands of the ultra wealthy corporate/banking elite.

Even the most simple minded person has to realize that there are two ways to balance any budget. One way would be to cut expenditures and the other would be to increase revenues and/or a combination thereof. Seems like someone, (the ultra wealthy elite) has taken the option of increasing revenue completely off the table, imagine that. Now that they've manage to get their tax rates to the lowest level in generations, in essence starving our state and federal budgets of needed revenue, they are now attempting to persuade the american people that it's all the fault of unions.

Union's were formed to protect, not the middle class, but people from working in terrible unsafe conditions. I know this because I have worked worldwide, in the industrial world, and have seen what many people have not. Unions are not a bad thing and are necessary, however they have taken advantage of their power, and now they are paying the price for that.

Yes our middle-class is dwindling, but the average teacher makes 40 - 50k a year, works 185 days a year, full benefits, pension, safe work conditions, and 4 months off a year. I would wager teachers are not going to get much sympathy, in a depression.

UNIONS BUILT THE MIDDLE CLASS and you have no evidence that they played any significant role in causing our current economic problems much less that, "they have taken advantage of their power." Not only did they they demand safe working conditions, they also stood up against child labor, they created the 40 hr. work week, unemployment insurance, the minimum wage, healthcare and pension plans for the american worker. Furthermore, they did all this during America's economic boom that led us to be the world's largest economy. This was back when unions were much, much stronger and I don't seem to remember them driving us into economic collapse back then, why is that?

It wasn't until the advent of "Free Trade" and "Corporate Outsourcing," or as Ross Perot put it; "That huge sucking sound," that everything went to hell in a hand basket. As greed became a more powerful force than patriotism, corporations began to move their factories overseas leaving the american worker jobless and destroying our nation's tax base in the process. On top of that, we legalized even more greed via the deregulation of Wall St. and bingo, America is flat broke and our CEOs now control the vast majority of our nation's wealth.

In reality, it's corporate america that has pushed it's power to the limits by outsourcing our jobs and refusing to pay their fair share of the nation's tax burden, proportional to the amount of the nation's wealth they control, leaving our budgets drowning in red ink. America has been robbed and the culprits are currently receiving bonuses for doing such a good job of it and no, I'm not talking about multi-million dollar union bonuses.

Instead of people fighting amongst each other they should question the governments budgets and how to re-allocate some of its spending.

www.warresisters.org...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/971d796a3fa9.gif[/atsimg]

Harry Truman once said; "How many times do you have to get hit over the head before you turn to see just who it is that's hitting you?" When you profess that our current economic problems are the result of overreaching unions, you are promoting the idea that americans should fight against each other instead of directing their anger at the true culprit which is job stealing, tax evading, multi-national corporations controlled by the ultra wealthy elite.

When it comes to budget cutting on the national level, I think that your pie chart's color coding clearly shows where the red ink is coming from, the red or pink section. Do you think that maybe, instead of spending more than the world's next 27 biggest militaries combined, that we could try spending just half that much and see if we get attacked? Especially seeing how 26 of those other militaries are our allies.

Our nation's financial woes could be solved with one very simple fix and that would be to pass legislation that clearly mandates that if anyone wants to sell their products in the U.S.A., they must build them here with american workers. It doesn't seem to be killing Toyota or BMW to build their cars here and this policy would insure that we don't hear that "Huge sucking sound" again in the future.

Anyway, that's the way those of us who do not wear rose colored glasses view the current situation. Looks a little different in the light of day, doesn't it?

reply to post by Qcuailon


No harm done, I think on ATS when we are really passionate about something we go blind and only want to get our point across, I have done it in the past, lol.

BTW welcome to ATS

If you look at the pie chart I posted in the OP, if we took 50 to 60% of defense budget we wouldn't have any problems in educational funding, nor police, fire, and money left over. But will this happen if people request it?

Our so call reps follow lobbyist agendas, not the US majorities, which is the major flaw in our system.

If it were up to me, I would want education paid for from k thru college, for everyone.

reply to post by Realtruth


Yes, the money does have to come from somewhere. A good start is to take a look at the tax-codes and which parties and which entities are exempt from full taxes. Another start is looking at Govt. priorities and who and what is being funded. I assure you, Education and Mental Health are not at the top of the list.

Do I think there are problems with Unions? Yes. The entire structure does need to be looked at, it operates from historical perspective and may or may not (depending on the Union) be in accordance with current reality, however... Picking groups to focus on while overlooking the grand scheme, is like pointing fingers at each other and complaining that my neighbor has a bigger house then me. The divide and conquer cliche goes into full swing.

There is a problem. A big one. This finger pointing and laying blame on the working people - it's distraction and attempt to justify one's anger - but not a problem solver and I wish the public would understand this. Maybe then, things would change...

Originally posted by Flatfish

When it comes to budget cutting on the national level, I think that your pie chart's color coding clearly shows where the red ink is coming from, the red or pink section. Do you think that maybe, instead of spending more than the world's next 27 biggest militaries combined, that we could try spending just half that much and see if we get attacked? Especially seeing how 26 of those other militaries are our allies.

Our nation's financial woes could be solved with one very simple fix and that would be to pass legislation that clearly mandates that if anyone wants to sell their products in the U.S.A., they must build them here with american workers. It doesn't seem to be killing Toyota or BMW to build their cars here and this policy would insure that we don't hear that "Huge sucking sound" again in the future.

Anyway, that's the way those of us who do not wear rose colored glasses view the current situation. Looks a little different in the light of day, doesn't it?

It's not my pie chart, but I did post it for the response that you gave, Bravo and kudos in your response. And for the basic knowledge of where money is being allocated.

I live in Detroit, worked for the auto industry for years, yes and was part of the union, but the company that I worked for was gutted as soon as NAFTA, was passed and our jobs went south of the border within 6 months.

I don't' care who's fault is was, what party, it happened. I was able to secure a job again in the auto industry, traveling as a consultant and programmer, but that was soon replaced by cheaper labor.

We do need to get back to our roots, and produce something, even if we are the worlds largest farm, but all of these Wall street scumbags, getting a piece for doing nothing has to come to a halt.

And I have never owned a foreign car, lol ever.

Originally posted by LadySkadi
reply to post by Realtruth

 

There is a problem. A big one. This finger pointing and laying blame on the working people - it's distraction and attempt to justify one's anger - but not a problem solver, if ya get what I mean.

edit on 10-3-2011 by LadySkadi because: (no reason given)

Great reply and thanks for the personal input, I understand teachers in the USA are not created equal although personally I think they all deserve better pay.

My attempt on the OP was to actual light a bit of a fire, which I can see I achieved, and actually bring people's opinions to the surface. Devil's advocate to be precise.

I know that many teachers work year round, but not many people will actually know this unless they have been told or understand that many of them teach during the summer months.

Also many teachers have to prepare for their days with lesson plans, and also play the politics and fight the idiotic legislation that our elected official pass, that actually hurt more than helps our children and public school system.

The allocation of money is absurd to no ends, and why it doesn't get funneled into constructive things for our society is beyond my wildest comprehension.

But I have to thank everyone for their replies and input on this thread thus far.

I also hope the debate continues, because many think we may not be solving issues discussing matters on ATS, but I beg to differ, many are listening and taking note.

Post Script.


I actually think it is time that Politicians, that work for us, start to justify their salaries, benefits and what they actually do.

Let's see everyone get to vote, having politicians work part-time, get part time pay, no benefits and no special treatment, or having teachers, police, fire get pay cuts.

Has anyone actually brought this up at the bargaining table?

I understand concessions have to be made in an economic down turn, but why are politicians getting outrageous salaries and benefits?

reply to post by Realtruth


The argument has been made successfully that to not do so would see all the "talent" go to the private sector.

Originally posted by LadySkadi
reply to post by Realtruth

 

The argument has been made successfully that to not do so would see all the "talent" go to the private sector.

Private sector wouldn't hire politicians to be janitors, maybe we could use them somewhere like walking around US farmland spreading their BS. At least the plants would benefit.

Originally posted by Realtruth
...maybe we could use them somewhere like walking around US farmland spreading their BS. At least the plants would benefit.

I'm guessing you didn't have organic farms in mind, 'eh?

Ok. Back to topic, here is the latest:
Despite the issues with Labor Unions/Govt. bureaucracies, stripping collective bargaining rights does not seem the best route to take.

The standoff over union rights that rocked Wisconsin and the nation for weeks headed for a quick end Thursday, as Republican lawmakers were set to strip nearly all collective bargaining rights from the state's public workers and deliver one of the strongest blows to the power of unions in years. (1)

jon stewart
& More


& Some More
Sorry these videos arent' from youtube so I don't know how to embed it?