Whining Teachers and Unions.

All this bickering is pointless, in regards to the Wisconsin collective bargaining.

Do teachers in the USA actually understand what went on, or is going on in the USA currently?

We are broke. Have No Money. In Debt. People are making this a Union thing, and/ or a party issue, it is neither.

In The Real World.

Most of us living in the real world have a different perspective, when things get financially stressed and people make less or have no incomes, sacrifices have to be made. People tighten their belts, go without health-care, extra luxuries, sometimes even food. Tax bases have been cut in half, in most of the USA or more.

The pay that teachers, and many government workers received preciously were based on a thriving economy, people being able to pay their taxes and making good wages, that is how the government runs, on TAX MONEY.

Do these teachers actually understand that 35+ million US citizens are on food stamps currently and rising?

Let me explain basic economics 101, which many people don't get in public schools or even take in college.

Money comes from somewhere, when salaries and budgets are based on a certain amount of money, then a certain amount of wages can be paid. Now, if that certain amount is cut in half, then the amount of the salaries and budgets have to be cut in half. Simple math folks.

The Union Card.

Union's were formed to protect, not the middle class, but people from working in terrible unsafe conditions. I know this because I have worked worldwide, in the industrial world, and have seen what many people have not. Unions are not a bad thing and are necessary, however they have taken advantage of their power, and now they are paying the price for that.

Yes our middle-class is dwindling, but the average teacher makes 40 - 50k a year, works 185 days a year, full benefits, pension, safe work conditions, and 4 months off a year. I would wager teachers are not going to get much sympathy, in a depression.

Instead of people fighting amongst each other they should question the governments budgets and how to re-allocate some of its spending.

www.warresisters.org...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/971d796a3fa9.gif[/atsimg]

I guess they still teach that money grows on trees, in the US public school systems.

WTF is wrong with ATS these past months? Right wing slant is extremely pronounced, divisive posts enforcing the right/left illusion are rampant and the pro-corporate spin that has taken root is beyond suspicious. I used to lurk here enjoying posts that helped me relax after dealing with the propagandist "liberal" mass media and now it seems the same underhanded methods are being propagated here. Suddenly ATS has been invaded by the billionaires' representatives, it seems. It pains me to admit that a place of enlightenment such as this has been so dramatically transformed into another mouthpiece for the plutocracy.

reply to post by Realtruth


I never thought I would see the day people turned on teachers and hard working people, the backbone of our country.

2 useless wars (military indust complex) , Medicine (big pharma) and fuel (big oil) remain somehow unharmed, untouched not even IN DANGER...yet our own health care, our children's education, public television.... all on the chopping block.

Energy efficient and fuel saving plans like high speed rail fail because basic transportation benefit the poorest people and yet a Multi-Million Dollar Marina - polllutes the environment and will spoil and remove more of the free and available seacoast from "the people" so the rich can, pollute the waters, fuel up and dock their yachts somehow gets passed. Permits to build ANOTHER GIANT Sports Stadium gets passed. They say THESE will create jobs or improve the city.
Meanwhile plans to improve the roads and bridges we cannot afford.
And people believe it. Nothing more than a successful ad campaign, and believe it.
And worse, it is, in the words of the venerable and infinitely wise Charlie Sheen,....WINNING.

I shudder to think where we are headed with this sick and twisted upside down mentality.

Buckling to same corporate interests that MAKE IT so YOU can't afford to take your kid to a ball game or a sports event anymore. Meanwhile chances are, you paid for the friggin stadium!!!

And even the players don't make enough to satisfy them. They are busting their heads while owners make the serious money.

Meanwhile teachers have our most important asset, our greatest resource and our only hope
for most of the day. As it is many of them are buying their own classroom supplies, while their class sizes are getting larger and the children in them more and more undiagnosed autistic and we are trying to haggle with their wages.
What sort of generation of wage earners and professionals do you think this strategy will turn out?
What sort of America is this going to earn us?

I think teachers themselves (not the administrators or board members where money is wasted now) teachers themselves should be paid more, appreciated by the parents and interact with them more often. I think teachers should have their own holiday where Hallmark has to work overtime and the end isle displays in the Pharmacy all remind you about it, MACYS has a Teachers Appreciation Day Sale. They should also have their own yearly awards show... like the Oscars. And another awards show presented to them by the students they teach.

Yes. I think there is even more we should do for our childrens teachers.

reply to post by Realtruth


Here is the Big Picture...

Just watch the video please.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by rusethorcain

I never thought I would see the day people turned on teachers and hard working people, the backbone of our country.

I hear you friend. Teachers, Firefighters, Police Officers and such are the backbone here, they serve (for the most part) us, keep us safe, and put out fires, and teach our children. The governor, in my considered opinion, made a big mistake here. He could have asked the Union Members to take pay cuts, or even cuts in their health care benefits, and the Unions just may have agreed to some cuts. Everyone in the Union knows the US is flat broke, and they are all smart people, they know that asking for a big pay raise is not in the cards here.
But no, the governor made a very un-wise move and went for the throat. He went after their collective bargaining rights. He may as well have went after their Constitutional rights, the shots he fired hurt just as much. The Legislators know in their black hearts that America is broke. They just refuse to admit it. Time for a coup on the Federal Reserve and Central Banking Cartel, and a new start. These private banking institutions have more money than God does, and they are not spreading it around.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
reply to post by Realtruth

 

I never thought I would see the day people turned on teachers and hard working people, the backbone of our country.


Meanwhile teachers have our most important asset, our greatest resource and our only hope
for most of the day, as it is many of them are buying their own classroom supplies, classes are getting larger and the children are more and more undiagnosed autistic and/or troubled we are trying to haggle with their wages. What sort of generation of wage earners and professionals do you think this strategy will turn out?

No one is turning there backs on teachers, nor children. This is the excuse being used and card being played right now.

What sort of wage earner will it turn out? if there are few jobs, or no jobs, as currently happening, it makes no difference because people will not be able to afford to pay the taxes, which in turn pays teachers salaries.

The money needs to come from somewhere and the USA is broke, the only thing being asked right now is for teachers to take a pay cut, just like everyone has in the private sector or worse many people have no jobs. In the real world if a company does not make a profit, they go broke or out of business. Why would this be any different if little tax money is being collected?

A temporary pay cut, not close the doors and find another job.

These teachers should be thankful they have a job, that pays that well with the time off and benefits to boot.

And for the backbone of our country, I thought it was farmers, since people need to eat first and foremost. Farmers actually work 365 days a year, no benefits, no pension, no medical, no summers off, no snow days off, no insurance of crop success and fixed grain prices.

Everyone in the USA is important, no one better or worse, just different. We are all in this together, it's time everyone adjusts their spending, and make do with what they have currently.

Some imbeciles believe that by siding with the billionaires they too are somehow members and belong at the plutocrats' yacht club. Dude owns a pinto with a faded yellow ribbon magnet but still supports the rich vs his own damn neighbors and family. It's a social disease.

reply to post by Realtruth



This anti union crusade isn't about economics it's about something much more sinister. It's a broad based attack on the middle class.

once again....

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by Snoopy1978
Some imbeciles believe that by siding with the billionaires they too are somehow members and belong at the plutocrats' yacht club. Dude owns a pinto with a faded yellow ribbon magnet but still supports the rich vs his own damn neighbors and family. It's a social disease.

So where does the money come from if someone is driving a pinto or not driving at all, because he can't afford too.

The USA did great for many years, then was sold out by NAFTA and many other pieces of legislation that pushed the jobs over seas, because of "Cheaper Labor".

Jobs are not here in the USA anymore, well at least the ones in the private sector that pay the middle class a good wager, thus allowing for better lifestyles, higher taxes that people can afford, then teachers, police and fire get paid well.

Those times are gone, money is not there, it's the common working people that fund the budgets and most people these days are not working and if they are it's way below the level of previous years.

I don't have an answer, but I do know that when things get tough everyone needs to tighten their belts.

reply to post by whaaa



Whaa I believe it is much more than a party line issue, I believe that the government be they republican or democrats and TPTB are using this to conquer and divide the masses. The travesty worldwide is the indoctrination of making people pick a side, which is elusive in itself, because both sides are paid for, and controlled by TPTB.

Sure pick a side they say, nudge nudge chuckle chuckle.

If a problem is created by the people in power, then they can come up with a solution and look like heros.

The only solution I can see is a whole new social structure, without banks, politicians and governments, but people can't see past sides they stand on.

reply to post by Realtruth


The unions already agreed to the cuts. Get informed. The voting is on ending the right to collectively bargain! The billionaires are moving their tentacles through the politicians as usual to empower themselves to continue to bleed us dry. You know, how about ending the goddamn wars and the hundreds of bases all over the world instead of privatizing public schools, ending unions and giving tax break$ to the rich? Too large to fails? Not the teachers' union of course. By the way, WI was NOT broke until this new mayor gave tax breaks to his rich friends. The collapse, in WI as in the whole US, has been manufactured. The rich want it ALL. Not not more, but ALL. Seriously, are you trolling? By this stage in the game if you are still blabbing the plutocrat talking points...well, you are either paid for by the rich or need a helmet with your name written in crayon put on asap.

reply to post by Realtruth


As far as I understood it, you cannot have your previously remunerated service deducted from your checking and/or savings account...i.e., people cannot just say, "Oh, sorry, remember the pay you received for your services from the tax payers? Yeah, we're gonna have to go ahead and take that back from you." A pension is not some fanciful "extra" money that the teachers will get when they retire. It's money deducted from their salary, starting when the first got their first pay check and going forward until their last pay check.

These withholdings are pooled together and, just like any other "insurance" or "social" system, you figure some people die before retirement, some people die just after retirement, some people live to a ripe old age, and everyone else lies somewhere in between.

Under those assumptions, the 50% (or whatever it would be depending on the pension plan) would be deducted, pooled, and re-distributed later in life.

In other words, complaining about the pensions is tantamount to complaining about salary already paid-in-full (of which, a certain portion happened to be returned back to the state pension plan for holding.

In other words once over: it's theft of wages earned for services rendered.

To complain about pensions as some mythical "bonus" taken from the tax payers in addtion to pay is ridiculous.

Also:
I don't recall you touching on this, but a teacher does not work from 7 to 3.

There is lesson planning, grading, evaluating, conferences, training (before teaching and concurrent to it), disciplining, extracurricular activities and the like that take up more time than you would know. Trust me on this.

At the elementary level, the testing and grading is less of an issue, but the planning, which of course is highly visual and sensorial (mobiles, posters, arts and crafts, etc.) is also time consuming.

There are state standards and with NCLB, you have standardized testing that consumes your time for basically petty reasons.

Finally:
Let's not kid ourselves. This is the shock doctrine, as Naomi Klein detailed empirically in her book by the same name.

The crisis is real (though we seem to ignore how it happened), but the measures taken are completely unrelated to solving it.

These 16 states (if that number is still correct) are pushing legislation that does not reflect changes. If they wanted to create jobs, why do their bills neglect jobs and only go after trivial amounts of money.

No body is discussing the elephant in the room...you know, the one that straddles the Tigris and Euphrates and whose trunk lies somewhere around the Hindu Kush. That elephant is pondering taking a massive dump on North Africa shortly...that will be an expensive addition to the piles of dung this elephant has strewn about. But enough of my colorful coprophilic metaphors.

These teachers, I do believe, know better about education than some hack who didn't graduate college (Walker) or, as is the case in my state, some hack who was party to the largest medicare fraud in US history, having pleaded the 5th some 72 times on his deposition (Yes, I'm a Floridian).

Take away their bargaining and watch corporations swoop in and take over the educational system.

Those of you who support smaller government would applaud this measure, but I would issue a strong warning that a school cannot be run like a company. In a company, you get rid of your worst employees, sure, so you might be thinking that will clean up the pool of teachers, leaving only the creme de la creme.

CAVEAT: Just like a pet food company, whose customers are not really the true consumer, a charter school will still receive tax payer money, but now with the obligation to make money with it, rather than the heretofore obligation of taking the pittance these schools receive from property funds and distributing education as equally as possible to the many students in the given community. With a charter school, you'll be looking at increased pay for administrators and owners, bargain basement acquisition of supplies (do they make American history text books somewhere in China yet???) and class sizes that would make a university lecturer blush.

Then what do those kids in poorer neighborhoods do? Oh, that's right, people like you deny the link between education and crime and the fact that it's a vicious circle...a race to the bottom in some cases.

Ghetto has tenaments, blight, poverty and crime >>> Property value is lower >>> Property taxes are lower >>> Schools are poorly equipped and underfunded >>> Local students already in a precarious situation are ill-equipped to get out of their neighborhood >>> Ill-equipped students in ill-equipped schools >>> Drop out rate high, learning rate low, class sizes high, bright future low >>> higher crime rate, imprisonment, more blight >>> Even lower tax rates >>> Even poorer schools.

What fantasy world do some of you live in???

reply to post by Realtruth


The teachers did agree to the pay cut, but that is not the issue. Walker wants to take away collective bargaining.

Originally posted by Snoopy1978
WTF is wrong with ATS these past months? Right wing slant is extremely pronounced, divisive posts enforcing the right/left illusion are rampant and the pro-corporate spin that has taken root is beyond suspicious. I used to lurk here enjoying posts that helped me relax after dealing with the propagandist "liberal" mass media and now it seems the same underhanded methods are being propagated here. Suddenly ATS has been invaded by the billionaires' representatives, it seems. It pains me to admit that a place of enlightenment such as this has been so dramatically transformed into another mouthpiece for the plutocracy.

Instead of ranting and getting stressed out what is your constructive solution, or did I miss it in your post somewhere?

Again we have someone pointing out political sides, instead of looking at the issues and problems at hand.

We need to stop playing victims and come up with solutions.

Originally posted by Sphota
reply to post by Realtruth

 

The teachers did agree to the pay cut, but that is not the issue. Walker wants to take away collective bargaining.

That is not a good thing, I agreed no argument from me, on that one.

I would say this is a wake up call for all of us, I don't think it's too late to band together, but this partisan crap has to stop, these politician democrats or republicans are all millionaires, they have nothing in common with most people in the USA.

4 years in office and collect full pensions, and full medical, with Dental and Optical and get to keep all of there campaign and fund raising money when they leave office. Politicians don't represent any of us, despite what people want to think in the USA.

reply to post by Realtruth


Concerning the sad state of affairs at ATS, what seemed as a rant to you is something I have been pondering for a couple of weeks now. It is a valid point that I'm sure many share with me. Anyhow, on the matter at hand, I did post solutions. First, end the wars and cut back the hundreds of bases all over the world. Need more? Tax the rich to pre-Reagan levels. Reinstate Glass-Steagal, tariffs for corporations manufacturing overseas and importing here. Prosecute war criminals and wall street/banking criminals. Legalize ALL drugs, tax them and invest in a massive anti-drug educational campaign. Introduce the fairness doctrine so corporate owned news media wont continue to disseminate propaganda and stupify the masses. Also, no more aid to nations that wage aggressive war and occupations. Finally, repeal corporate personhood and ban lobbying and corporate financed elections plus that computerized voting scam.

See why I'll never be president? Not corrupt or sociopathic enough.

reply to post by Realtruth


I'll agree on the partisan garbage though. At this point in the game one has to be a fool not to realize we are being played by the good cop/bad cop game of political treachery. There is only one party and its the MONEY party and have an agenda set to accomplish regardless of the ideology they spew to divide us.

reply to post by Sphota


I know Florida pretty well and the teachers are not paid very much compared to their counterparts, in other states, this I understand.

I also think that teachers do need a good pay, benefits and some leeway to teach children, which I heard they do not do in Florida.

I know that children are our future, but some of the states in very bad economic times have not adjusted salaries accordingly, this pushing them into deep financial chaos.

If people in the USA feel so strongly about teachers getting paid more than politicians, which you would have no argument from me on, then they need to step up to the plate and make it happen.

Let the budgets be re-allocated in the areas that people want, but it never seems to happen that way politicians play both sides of the fence and make out well.

Salary of House/Senate...$174,000.
Salary of Speaker of House...$223,500.
Salary of Majority/Minority Leaders...$193,400.
Average US Salary...$33,000 to $77,000.
Maybe our elected officials should make an average salary too.

Originally posted by Realtruth
but the average teacher makes 40 - 50k a year, works 185 days a year, full benefits, pension, safe work conditions, and 4 months off a year. I would wager teachers are not going to get much sympathy, in a depression.

That is a common misconception. Most REAL teachers work around 60 hours per week during the school year, and do indeed work during "months off" going to required training and preparing for school in addition to having to fulfill the many changing requirements at the school, district, and even state levels. This can be from 5-10 hours per week on average for the "months off" that a teacher works. This of course varies from school to school but is how I have seen it.

So 60 hours per week x 10 months per year (Many school districts have their employees for 10 months) = 2,400 hours per year + 5 hours per week x 2 months off per year = 40 hours = grand total of 2,440 hours per year on average. Equivalent to about 47 hours per week for a full time, year around job, it is just compressed in a shorter more intense time span. Teachers do not received overtime or comp time either.

The typical full time 12 months employee works about 2,080 hours per year (40 hours week x 52 weeks per year). So teachers not only work more hours than a 12 months employee, but are under much more scrutiny and the time they do work (especially in the classroom) is much more intensive than a majority of professions.

This doesn't even include the amount of education required to teach (Student loans, etc), the certifications they must maintain and pay for training out of their own pockets as well as them buying many class supplies with their own salaries.

reply to post by autowrench


@autowrench: Just a couple of points here: I am a government employee of what you called the backbone of society. The idea that government employees are the backbone of our society is fundamentally wrong, the taxpayers who pay the salary and wages of government employees are the backbone of our society. Without them the government employees dont get paid. Two: Governor Walker earlier this week DID offer to cut the majority of collective bargaining cuts if the Dems returned. They did not. Also for a specific example the City of Milwaukee went to Milwaukee Fire Department local union shop and asked them if they will be willing to pay cuts and putting their own money towards healthcare/pension/etc and the union gave them the finger and told them to pound sand. This is after weeks of commercials/advertisements on the TV/Radio of firefighter union people saying to the public that they are willing to comprimise. They clearly are not.

The people in the union are smart, but the bosses of these unions are only worried about their $400k a year salary, and what scares the heck out of them is what Walker proposed and would ultimately ONLY affect the union bosses, not the state of the people Unionized.

Heres the Facts: Wisconsin is broke, and in debt. What Walker is doing is cutting State aid to cities and towns. This can sound ominous however Walker is also, by eliminating some aspects of collective bargaining, is giving the cities the tools to make the lesser amount of money work without cutting any employees or decreasing healthcare/pension. One specific aspect of this is collective bargaining. Walker is not doing away with the collective bargaining of Wages, just certain benifits, such as health care SELECTION. Currently the union, with direction from the union bosses, is forcing the public schools of wisconsin to buy health insurance FROM THE UNIONS. The unions charge $30,000 PER teacher to be covered a year. What Walker is doing is allowing the Cities/Public Schools to do is shop around for a cheaper healthcare plan that has all the same benifits! This will ultimately cut the spending of the schools, the teachers get to keep their cadillac healthcare at a lower cost and the unions wont recieve as much money. That is WHY the unions are so scared!! They are not looking out for the working class, they are looking out for their own pocket books.

And as for your last comment about spreading the money around?!?!? I firmly believe that America is EQUAL OPPORTUNITY not EQUAL OUTCOME. If any single American wants to be rich all he/she has to do is get a good education, get a good job, then work hard and make lots of money. Lets see how much that person then wants to spread their hard earned money around.

That is the situation in Wisconsin and to me it seems pretty financially responsible. I live here and can no longer afford any tax increases with no attempt at reducing our debt/deficit.