Apparently, the end of America begins in Michigan!

reply to post by loam


1) Rachel Madcow is a dumb liberal circus performer.

She is worthless, just like the rest of the circus performers. Like Olbermann, and Beck. You should be ashamed of referencing her, or any other circus personality for your source.

2) Unions are socialism. There is nothing American about it.

Like it or not, people do NOT have a right to collectively bargain, it's not in the Constitution. Our country is capitalist, you work you earn. Lazy-ass union workers are pissed, because they will actually have to perform to keep their jobs now. Instead of just sitting on their asses, and getting protected from being fired by union guarantees.

3) Government workers should not be protected by Socialism.

Why should government employees enjoy a privilege of protection that ALL citizens cannot enjoy?

4) This is not the end of America.

You are just fear-mongering to get topic hits.

I don't see the problem here. Local municipalities rely heavily on state government for financial aid. Its no secret that many localities mismanage their money. Its very similar to a bankruptcy judge controlling the assets of a company that just filed bankruptcy. The alternative is allowing the towns and cities to go under, in which case all the promises they made to employees would get voided anyhow. The governor would just be trying to right the ship, and make the towns viable again. I guess in the alternative he could just declare that these cities and towns would cease getting state funds, but that would cause the same amount of uproar. At least in this situation there is an attempt at making things right.

Originally posted by Byteman
reply to post by loam

 

1) Rachel Madcow is a dumb liberal circus performer.

Rachael Maddow is a highly intelligent Rhodes Scholar. She has achieved an audience of hundreds of thousands. Compare your lifetime accomplishments pre-40 years old.

She is worthless, just like the rest of the circus performers. Like Olbermann, and Beck. You should be ashamed of referencing her, or any other circus personality for your source.

Their bank account and the fact that you know her/them shows them to be anything but worthless...again, compare your fortune and fame with theirs.
Clearly your inferiority complex is clouding your rationale here. Its easy to tear down successful people verses have introspection of your failings, but you don't need to achieve nationwide fame in order to be successful...jealousy is a ugly trait.

2) Unions are socialism. There is nothing American about it.

Reagen disagree's.
America is founded on the idea of..well, ideas. It is when a group of people stand together to achieve something. The first thing a actual socialist government does is eliminate unions to have government take control..unions is the voice of the people.
Your argument is that the people should not be heard, That in itself is highly anti-american if you want to split hairs..might want to read some history books on socialist countrys and the fate of unions under them...

Unions is the staplemark of a democratic country.

Like it or not, people do NOT have a right to collectively bargain,

People most certainly do. Law or not, if people join hands and give the middle finger to the government, saying no work until things improve, guess what..theres not jack nor s99t that the beloved government can do about this...they unite..aka, form a union, to protect themselves from the asshats in charge...like it or not, unions will remain, period...and the more the far right corporate shills try to eliminate them, the stronger they will grow in the mindsets of the common man

it's not in the Constitution.

Nor is taking a crap, but its my right as a human to do it anyhow..the constition is not a bible, it is a set of ideals for government, not for people...the people have a right to unite, to demonstrate, to strike, to pick their nose, to do whatever they effing want, don't like it, leave..it really is that simple

Our country is capitalist, you work you earn. Lazy-ass union workers are pissed, because they will actually have to perform to keep their jobs now. Instead of just sitting on their asses, and getting protected from being fired by union guarantees.

union workers get fired for not preforming at their job..their job is not to dig a ditch, its to negotiate the concerns of the workers, set a fair wage, set fair working conditions, etc. You sound like someone whom has no concept whatsoever about what unions are beyond...something the right wing doesn't like..why not do some research, then thank a union for making conditions tolerable verses some chinese sweat shop that corporate masters would like.

3) Government workers should not be protected by Socialism.

40 hour workweek, weekends, minimum wage, no child labor laws, paying for accident, safety procedures...actually you know what, government itself can arguably be considered socialist (they are supported by the many through funds taken simply to exist...not a donation, but forced money taken from the people through taxes).
You have no clue what socialism is, do you...its just a fun word to say..why not just call it satanism, or smurfism...I mean, its just fun letters slapped together that gives you an emotional feeling...how about evilbadhorrism?
Why do you feel the need to distort a actual word?

Why should government employees enjoy a privilege of protection that ALL citizens cannot enjoy?

Such as...what? what does a government employee enjoy that private counterparts don't?

4) This is not the end of America.

Agreed with that...just another transformation

You are just fear-mongering to get topic hits.

This topic has little to do with unions actually...the issue in this thread (if you bothered to watch) was the fact that they instituted a rule where a single man can remove elected officals, disban townships, etc.

Imagine if a lefty liberal put that rule in place where he personally could remove an elected offical...would certainly solve that tea party nonsense, dontcha think?

enjoy your bowl of hypocracy.

Originally posted by croweboy
I guess in the alternative he could just declare that these cities and towns would cease getting state funds, but that would cause the same amount of uproar.

No, actually that would be the correct way of doing things

The people elect whom they think will lead best...if the people have chosen poorly, their district should suffer...not have their choice removed from them like they are infants.

Treat them like grown ups, and people will actually get involved in who is running..if the area goes bankrupt, then the area suffers and the people will elect someone new at the next session.

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by Byteman
reply to post by loam

 

1) Rachel Madcow is a dumb liberal circus performer.

She is worthless, just like the rest of the circus performers. Like Olbermann, and Beck. You should be ashamed of referencing her, or any other circus personality for your source.

2) Unions are socialism. There is nothing American about it.

Like it or not, people do NOT have a right to collectively bargain, it's not in the Constitution. Our country is capitalist, you work you earn. Lazy-ass union workers are pissed, because they will actually have to perform to keep their jobs now. Instead of just sitting on their asses, and getting protected from being fired by union guarantees.

3) Government workers should not be protected by Socialism.

Why should government employees enjoy a privilege of protection that ALL citizens cannot enjoy?

4) This is not the end of America.

You are just fear-mongering to get topic hits.

You are a fool and don't realize this is not about socialism.

When our elected public officials are taken out of their positions for someone APPOINTED, not VOTED FOR BY CITIZENS, we have A BIG F******* PROBLEM.

Seriously people

I live in Grand Rapids and just heard about this, I'll tell you what though, folks in Michigan are not going to back down and take this kind of thing, even if it passes, putting it into practice will cause rioting and striking all over. This society will not run under any such doctrine.

I have faith in the people of Michigan not to let this garbage fly, even if the Senate does.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny

Originally posted by Uniceft17WTH is wrong with people? It's plain as day that this law is UNCONSTITUTIONAL, don't let partisanship blind you, this would never hold up in a court of law.

It is plain as day that the health care bill is unconstitutional…….. But…. In regard to the state bill we are discussing……… What does the constitution have to do with it?

The constitution doesn’t dictate how the state manages it’s self. In fact, the constitution would support the bill because it would fall under state’s rights.

edit on 10-3-2011 by Mr Tranny because: (no reason given)

The Constitution is the law of ALL of this land, not some of it. And I agree with you on the health care bill, but this thread isn't about that.

reply to post by Uniceft17


The constitution doesn’t say anything about this subject!!!! Read the dang thing and tell me where it says that counties will have elected officials, and those officials are to be elected and replaced by a set of procedures that the constitution lays out!!!!!!! IT DOESN’T

Jesus H Christ!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently so, it seems. Apparently so.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny
reply to post by Uniceft17

 

The constitution doesn’t say anything about this subject!!!! Read the dang thing and tell me where it says that counties will have elected officials, and those officials are to be elected and replaced by a set of procedures that the constitution lays out!!!!!!! IT DOESN’T

Jesus H Christ!!!!!!!!!!

Use your common sense, the constitution doesn't say anything about healthcare, but you were touting it as unconstitutional in this thread. I don't care if Michigan passed a law or not, it won't last, the people will rise up, it will go through the court system and get tossed out in the trash.

Just wait, the second he starts sacking elected officials he's doomed himself.

Originally posted by Byteman
reply to post by loam

 

2) Unions are socialism. There is nothing American about it.

Like it or not, people do NOT have a right to collectively bargain, it's not in the Constitution. Our country is capitalist, you work you earn. Lazy-ass union workers are pissed, because they will actually have to perform to keep their jobs now. Instead of just sitting on their asses, and getting protected from being fired by union guarantees.

there are plenty of socialist programs, just about anything our government does is socialist. You obviously know nothing about unions besides propaganda, so stop talking and read a history book. Before unions a 60+ hour work week with no overtime and wage you bargained for before minimum wage was the normal. Middle class hardly existed. Also I would like to know what union guarantees protection against getting fired? Oh wait there is none.... stop talking about things you know nothing about.

well i had a link for you, but ATS keep censoring it for having swearing in it. www.whatthef...***haveunionsdonesofar.com/

Originally posted by Byteman
3) Government workers should not be protected by Socialism..

Why should government employees enjoy a privilege of protection that ALL citizens cannot enjoy?

why can't all citizens enjoy it? I thought you said you wanted to earn your keep, little nobody you against cooperate America? Unions aren't sounding too bad now are they?

Originally posted by Byteman
4) This is not the end of America.

You are just fear-mongering to get topic hits. .

Go read a history book, I don't know what else to tell you, you are obviously uneducated.

reply to post by SaturnFX

Rachael Maddow is a highly intelligent Rhodes Scholar. She has achieved an audience of hundreds of thousands. Compare your lifetime accomplishments pre-40 years old.

Madcow is a performer, who spins news to her liberal biased favor. You, like her obviously fell for the fake left-right paradigm. I couldn't give a crap who gave her a scholarship, it only means that a group of people made a decision about her.

Hundreds of thousands is a small audience for a national cable show. Pathetically small. South Park draws 4 million+ per show....just to compare.

You don't know my lifetime accomplishments, so I'll just chock that immature insult to your ignorance.

Their bank account and the fact that you know her/them shows them to be anything but worthless...again, compare your fortune and fame with theirs. Clearly your inferiority complex is clouding your rationale here. Its easy to tear down successful people verses have introspection of your failings, but you don't need to achieve nationwide fame in order to be successful...jealousy is a ugly trait.

Their bank account is irrelevant, I don't measure peoples worth in money. For example, Hitler was extremely rich...would you say he had a lot of worth? Of course you would, because you think a person is their money.

You don't know how much money I make, so WTF are you even talking about? I could be Bill Gates for all you know.

She voluntarily put herself on TV, and her opinions on TV. That means she willingly put herself in the line of fire. She doesn't really need you to be her white knight.

Again, you don't even know me. Let alone any possible "failures" I've had.

You know what else is an ugly trait? Talking ****, making baseless claims, and broadcasting assumptions about other posters.

Hypocrite.

Reagen disagree's. America is founded on the idea of..well, ideas. It is when a group of people stand together to achieve something. The first thing a actual socialist government does is eliminate unions to have government take control..unions is the voice of the people. Your argument is that the people should not be heard, That in itself is highly anti-american if you want to split hairs..might want to read some history books on socialist countrys and the fate of unions under them... Unions is the staplemark of a democratic country.

I couldn't care less what Reagan thought, he's as dirty as the rest of the political elite.

Go ahead and quote the part where I said people don't have the right to speak or protest.
Oh wait, you can't because I never said that you liar.

Unions ensure that everyone is paid the same, no matter what effort they give. That is pretty much the hallmark of communism and socialism. You are the one who needs to study up.

People most certainly do. Law or not, if people join hands and give the middle finger to the government, saying no work until things improve, guess what..theres not jack nor s99t that the beloved government can do about this...they unite..aka, form a union, to protect themselves from the asshats in charge...like it or not, unions will remain, period...and the more the far right corporate shills try to eliminate them, the stronger they will grow in the mindsets of the common man

Quote the part of the Bill of Rights that gives people the right to collectively bargain.
Oh wait, you can't...the word bargain isn't even in the Bill of Rights.

BTW, what you suggested is not bargaining, that is protesting.
I suggest studying up on your definitions, since you've made this mistake at least twice already.

Nor is taking a crap, but its my right as a human to do it anyhow..the constition is not a bible, it is a set of ideals for government, not for people...the people have a right to unite, to demonstrate, to strike, to pick their nose, to do whatever they effing want, don't like it, leave..it really is that simple

Actually you do have the right to perform biological functions like crapping.

Again, what you are talking about is protesting. Which is different than collective bargaining.

You obviously do not understand the difference, and that is why you fail to discern what I am saying. Who can blame you, you worship cable news...a sure sign of comprehension failure.

union workers get fired for not preforming at their job..their job is not to dig a ditch, its to negotiate the concerns of the workers, set a fair wage, set fair working conditions, etc.

Union workers keep their jobs, even though they are dead-ass lazy.. The union bosses job is to negotiate, not the union workers in general.

You wanna talk about failures, you just tried to say Union workers get fired for not working because they aren't ditch diggers, they negotiate terms.

Which makes zero sense.

You sound like someone whom has no concept whatsoever about what unions are beyond...something the right wing doesn't like..why not do some research, then thank a union for making conditions tolerable verses some chinese sweat shop that corporate masters would like.

You sound so ultra-defensive that I suspect you are one of the lazy union workers I mentioned.
Sorry, I didn't mean to hit the nail right on the head.

You are going on as if you were personally hurt by my general statement after all.

I'm not a right-winger. Unlike you, I haven't bought into the left-right BS paradigm.
I insulted Beck with the same breath I insulted Madcow and Olbermann.

Don't even try to compare American factories to Chinese sweat-shops. Even the most poorly paid American factory worker makes more an hour than typical Chinese workers in a week. Even without unions, such a place would get it's ass sued up one side and down the other for work conditions in America.

40 hour workweek, weekends, minimum wage, no child labor laws, paying for accident, safety procedures...actually you know what, government itself can arguably be considered socialist (they are supported by the many through funds taken simply to exist...not a donation, but forced money taken from the people through taxes). You have no clue what socialism is, do you...its just a fun word to say..why not just call it satanism, or smurfism...I mean, its just fun letters slapped together that gives you an emotional feeling...how about evilbadhorrism? Why do you feel the need to distort a actual word?

Why do you feel the need to make up BS attributes of people on ATS, and act like those BS attributes are real?

What does any of this have to do with the fact that government employees should not have protections that ordinary citizens cannot have?

Nothing, that's what. This is you dodging a question you can't answer.

The concept of socialism is so easy, a child can understand it. You act like it's complicated because your media masters told you it was, and by gum you better listen to the TV sheep.

Here's a word for you...Idiocracy. It's what you and sheep like you practice every time you sit down to worship Madcow and her liberal cattle-feed. Well, eat-up little wool-garden. The media masters need to shear you come summer.

Such as...what? what does a government employee enjoy that private counterparts don't?

What does a unionized government employee enjoy on the tax-payers dollar, that tax-payers have to pay for themselves to gain?

LMAO, the question answers itself.

Agreed with that...just another transformation

That sheep like you let happen.

This topic has little to do with unions actually...the issue in this thread (if you bothered to watch) was the fact that they instituted a rule where a single man can remove elected officals, disban townships, etc. Imagine if a lefty liberal put that rule in place where he personally could remove an elected offical...would certainly solve that tea party nonsense, dontcha think? enjoy your bowl of hypocracy.

Unions killed Michigan, of course they are germaine to the topic. This BS legislation wouldn't have even gotten introduced if the economy wasn't in shambles.

The Tea party doesn't live or die by one single member. How ignorant of you to assume that.
There is no hypocrisy, I haven't said anything contradictory.

Enjoy your bowl of using the word of hypocrisy incorrectly.

reply to post by skylightsintheillions

You are a fool and don't realize this is not about socialism.

You are a fool and don't realize what socialism means.

When our elected public officials are taken out of their positions for someone APPOINTED, not VOTED FOR BY CITIZENS, we have A BIG F******* PROBLEM.

Where did I say it was acceptable?

Nowhere, that's where. So you can just stuff it.

Seriously people

I'm only one person.

I live in Grand Rapids and just heard about this, I'll tell you what though, folks in Michigan are not going to back down and take this kind of thing, even if it passes, putting it into practice will cause rioting and striking all over. This society will not run under any such doctrine.

Blah Blah Blah?

I have faith in the people of Michigan not to let this garbage fly, even if the Senate does.

Blah Blah Blah, the sequel?

this must be the beginning of the new world order where businesses and government are inner linked i hope im wrong

reply to post by ohhwataloser

there are plenty of socialist programs, just about anything our government does is socialist. You obviously know nothing about unions besides propaganda, so stop talking and read a history book. Before unions a 60+ hour work week with no overtime and wage you bargained for before minimum wage was the normal. Middle class hardly existed. Also I would like to know what union guarantees protection against getting fired? Oh wait there is none.... stop talking about things you know nothing about.

I know plenty about unions. You call it propaganda to try and personally defame me, but you don't really know me or what I know, so you are just talking out your wind-hole. I get my information right from the source, Union members. You can call it fake all you want, doesn't affect the reality that I have indeed heard such things from union members.

Describing what you consider bad working conditions, doesn't justify unions or socialism.

There has never been a middle class, you are either rich or poor.

Many unions have employment guarantees. As long as you do some kind of minimal work, you get to keep your job. Sorry I don't have my almanac of union contracts handy. You don't know the contents of 100% of the union contracts in America either, so you cannot say for sure what all of them contain.

You are a hypocrite for trying to task me with proving my point, when you fail to hold yourself to the same standard.

reply to post by Byteman

Originally posted by Byteman
You are just fear-mongering to get topic hits.

No worries. Nothing I post on these boards will likely impact your support for the construction of a Banana Republic here at home.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny
Um……… That is the US guaranteeing a republican form of government TO the states. It does not dictate what form of government the states have to guarantee to their people!

The states don’t even have to let their citizens vote for who the state supports for president. That is just something they do by formal agreement. Some handle it differently than others.

The local towns, and their officials/representatives are not covered by the constitution at all. The whole concept of towns/districts, and their associated people, is totally outside the scope of the constitution.

Originally posted by Mr Tranny
reply to post by Uniceft17

 

The constitution doesn’t say anything about this subject!!!! Read the dang thing and tell me where it says that counties will have elected officials, and those officials are to be elected and replaced by a set of procedures that the constitution lays out!!!!!!! IT DOESN’T

Jesus H Christ!!!!!!!!!!

I think it can be argued that this violates several provisions in the Constitution, like Equal Protection and Universal Suffrage which gives everyone the right to have their votes heard. If you vote for someone, and they are elected, they can't be removed from office without proper due process. This eliminates what has always been considered due process in these matters - namely, impeachment proceedings.

Besides, all of that is moot in light of the fact that this law violates the Michigan Constitution:

ARTICLE VII
Local Government

§ 1 Counties; corporate character, powers and immunities.

Sec. 1. Each organized county shall be a body corporate with powers and immunities provided by law.

§ 2 County charters.

Sec. 2. Any county may frame, adopt, amend or repeal a county charter in a manner and with powers and limitations to be provided by general law, which shall among other things provide for the election of a charter commission. The law may permit the organization of county government in form different from that set forth in this constitution and shall limit the rate of ad valorem property taxation for county purposes, and restrict the powers of charter counties to borrow money and contract debts. Each charter county is hereby granted power to
levy other taxes for county purposes subject to limitations and prohibitions set forth in this constitution or law. Subject to law, a county charter may authorize the county through its regularly constituted authority to adopt resolutions and ordinances relating to its concerns.

Election of charter commissions.
The board of supervisors by a majority vote of its members may, and upon petition of five percent of the electors shall, place upon the ballot the question of electing a commission to frame a charter.

Approval of electors.
No county charter shall be adopted, amended or repealed until approved by a majority of electors voting on the question.

The Michigan Constitution gives local municipalities, counties, etc. the right to elect their own governments, the new law takes this power away from them in violation of of the Michigan Constitution, it seems to me. This is a violation of at the very least Michigan law, if not Federal law.

I live near Benton Harbor where this bill was written for if you have an issue with making cities run properly perhaps you are a problem. The EFM in Benton Harbor is Joe Harris who tried to help Detroit but they wouldn't listen now he is takling the mess here. His job is to work with the comission they decided not to the new law only says he can get rid of them if he decides it's best for the community and they can't run for another 6 years. They should be embarrassed about what the did here but they are too stupid. THey have no power.

The city has less than 20k people the mayor is oart time and was making over $10k per month plus $2000 a month car allowance $900 a month for office supplies and over $2000 a month for his cell phone. See the problem the city was running broke for 10 years and they didn't even discuss it.

The treasurer had no formal training made $70k a year and spent $40k a year to have a company do the books and they reported to the state that she was incompetent and refused to go to meetings or answer questions.

They went through city managers every year because they wanted to clean things up so they got fired the last one requested the state to step in before they fired him. I think they are still paying 3-4 city managers because of lawsuits.

The EMF is the best thing to happen to this place

reply to post by mikellmikell


I sense you feel you know the real problem with Benton Harbor but you're holding back for some reason and keeping us in the dark. Is there some correlation wit Detroit youre trying to make. like with a tendency for corruption and all sorts of 'shines at the top?
Dont keep us in suspense! Are you implying connecting this tendency to others at some higher levels of govt?

dup post, 1 entry, 3 copies.!