Overwhelming Evidence Pentagon Aircraft Data Is Not From An American Airlines 757

reply to post by backinblack


Look it up. The FMS does not only use IRS data.
www.biggles-software.com...
This just an overview, think of the details in the system.

A 3,000 foot error or more at take off in the IRS is not news, it is called reality. Now what is recored in the FDR is from the FMC, not only from an IRS. The FMC updates it's position based on rules and algorithms. The FMS/FMC is seen auto-tuning DME after take off to update the FMC position. The FDR information proves the FMC was working. The only way to verify this is to learn more. There is no inside job on 911, 19 terrorists did it. Saying the FDR is not from 77 is a lie.

IRS alone, ANP is around .4 NM and drifts. This does not mean the position from IRS at take off can't be better than 2400 feet, it means that is typical, and guess what? After a few minutes it drifts. IRS drifts at a rate ~.8 NM/hr. Guess who keeps the "real" (best guess position) the aircraft is? FMC. The FMC can use VOR, DME, LOC, to update the position. The FMC keeps track of IRS errors, and can use the IRS to pick up navigation if other sources are lost. The FMC knows the IRS are drifting off, and can use them to navigate because it applies the errors to correct from that point, even if the IRS are off miles.

www.inral.com...
Not related to 77, but to how the FMC works. 77 had no GPS, else the FMC after take off would drift to perfection of .1 NM or better. Drift, I meant the algorithm in the FMC refines/defines the position of the aircraft.

What do pilots for truth say the ANP for an IRS only is? They can't, it will ruin their story.

There are many references to learn more about Nav
www.vatnz.net...
boeing.com...
en.wikipedia.org...

boeing.com...
IRU and INS equipped airplanes are eligible to be qualified for time limited RNP-10 approval as Group 2 airplanes (8400.12A, Section 12, paragraph b) if they have inertial systems approved in accordance with part 121, Appendix G. Group 2 airplanes have limited qualification of the RNP-10 requirements for up to 6.2 hours of flight time. This time starts when the system is placed in the navigation mode. Following an automatic DME/DME update, a Group 2 airplane is again approved for 5.9 hours of flight time. Following an automatic DME/VOR update, a Group 2 airplane is again approved for 5.7 hours of flight time (8400.12A, Section 12, paragraph e.).

IRS that have drifted off are still good because the FMC can update with other systems and essentially start the IRS position "new", updated. The IRS are only good for a 10 mile accuracy to 6.2 hours, but the FMC can use other systems, update, and use IRS for another 5.9 hours. But the raw IRS is still way off.

Pilots don't taxi to the runway using IRS, we use a white line painted, like the yellow brick road. For takeoff we use our eyes and the ADI/HSI, plus a white-line. This is why we don't taxi to the grass where the IRS thinks it is, or the FMC showing the IRS position.

Originally posted by BCRFiles
P4T always has an open invitation for a recorded debate. Both weedwhacker and Reheat have socks registered at the P4T forum. They don't come around much though... nor will either put their name to their claims.. .ever.

ATS bans any opposition which exposed the BS from people like Reheat and weedy.

So again, why should anyone believe people like "Reheat" or "weedwhacker" over so many verified pilots willing to put their faces, names and professional reputations on the line?

Well, I heard things were getting lively over here so I figured I would drop by. The same invitation was offered to me by P4T, but when I finally stopped in to help them out with their radar data plots with a simple hint, "magnetic declination", I was immediately banned from posting comments.

Darn, I'm not a pilot and I'm not afraid of 'debating' P4T folks. Just come to the table with rational evidence and don't hide behind a sock-puppet inspired by my screen names (BCR and 911files). Why are Rob Balsamo and P4T afraid of little ole me? This is something inquiring minds want to know.


CPT Rob and P4T

reply to post by 911files


Yes......

....I was immediately banned from posting comments.

Balsamo doesn't like any dissent. Squelches it immediately, if you aren't one of his sycophants. He also displays the same childishness he does here, with the same "drowning out" tactics of flooding, and spamming his litany of verse and chapter repeat posts.....to appear to be 'discussing' politely with you...but, once you point out any of his many flawed arguments, and the heat gets too hot, Poof!, the ban hammer comes out. As I said earlier, it is quite petty, and fear-based....shows that he lacks the strength of his convictions.

Unlike ATS, where as long as you abide by the rules, bring all the dissent you wish to! However, once a bad apple, well.....someone who has proven time, and again, to be a liar and, frankly, perpetuating a hoax (as Balsamo, and "crew", do) are dealt with in the appropriate manner, I think.....

reply to post by iSunTzu


Great references....saves me the effort of digging for them...

Of course, you DO realize what some people will say, right? About making it "too technical"?

Trying to "jump ahead" and teach Airline Transport Pilot level material to people who have no foundation at all in aviation (and, come at it with SUCH a bias, they are not "eager" to be educated, at all) is challenging, to say the least....

reply to post by weedwhacker


By the way weedwacker, a lot of great information you have provided in this thread, thanks. Much better than my "hot mess of a fertile imagination".

reply to post by iSunTzu

A 3,000 foot error or more at take off in the IRS is not news, it is called reality.

Really? Even when the proper long/lat is listed for the gate with an error factor probably less than 300'??

So why would that happen and why wouldn't the pilot reset before leaving the gate?

reply to post by backinblack

So why would that happen and why wouldn't the pilot reset before leaving the gate?

Ya know....we keep assuming that the crew entered the gate coordinates. Because that was the premise required for the "Pilots" for "Truth" to make their trumped up false presentation, in the first place>

(I wonder how long they sat around and brainstormed. so that they could come up with this?? I mean, they really are scraping the bottom of that barrel of ideas......).

It could just as easily be assumed that they used the ARP (Airport Reference Point) as being "close enough"....since the system WILL update, once airborne. Did the "PffT" bring that up? Or, did they just keep making the false claim of an "in-flight re-alignment"??

Did anyone properly explain the DME/DME methods the system uses, when in flight, for FMC position updating (pre-GPS)?? I won't bother, because the links are posted already, and why waste my time repeating what I know, when you can read it elsewhere?

Point is, we really do not know for sure what coordinates were used to align the systems. Back then, as I keep saying, the accuracy of the IRS wasn't much of a concern, in terms of precision. The ATC system had been using VORs for a long time, and they actually are better, the closer they are to the station that is tuned in. The width of the "beam" spreads with distance....THAT is one reason why Airways are as wide as they are....about 5 miles (4 NM) either side of the center-line. When you are between two VORs, and using them only...and they are far apart, there can be a lot of 'spread' and differences, from airplane to airplane, because even a fraction of a degree is magnified.

Early on, the controllers would think that the IRS-equipped airplanes were "off" course a bit, in those places on the Airways....because the controllers were used to seeing the VOR-only airplanes off to one side...but, look up the RNP/ANP information, as already mentioned before....to see how those terms apply specifically to RNAV operations. Not sure f there is also a history online, of the development of these criteria and standards...ever-changing with changing technology.

reply to post by weedwhacker

Ya know....we keep assuming that the crew entered the gate coordinates. Because that was the premise required for the "Pilots" for "Truth" to make their trumped up false presentation, in the first place>

Would that not be a rather rational assumption though weed.??
They had the gate coordinates as shown in a previous post..
Why wouldn't they use them.??

OK, we'll run the other way..
You've seen the FDR data..
Were the coordinates entered that of the airport.??

Originally posted by backinblack
They had the gate coordinates as shown in a previous post..
Why wouldn't they use them.??

I'm not weedwacker, but you tell me. Did the pilot enter the gate coordinates at the beginning of flight #2 from O'Hare?



I keep hearing about how 'accurate' this INS system is supposed to be. I'm not a pilot so I don't know. But if this is accurate, the pilot taxied over the top of the other gates and aircraft as it was leaving for Orlando. Don't you see how foolish this whole gate argument is yet?

reply to post by backinblack

You've seen the FDR data..
Were the coordinates entered that of the airport.??

I don't care to troll through the more than 15 pages....any idea where they are posted, if in this thread?

Really....it would help A LOT if I just saw for myself, absent any of the "PffT" obfuscation and smoke....

The actual Lat/Longs entered into the POS INIT page, in the "SET IRS POS" field (line select at 4R) is what I need to see.

Originally posted by backinblack
They had the gate coordinates as shown in a previous post..
Why wouldn't they use them.??

And just how do you know what a Jepp plate looked like in September 2001. Do you have one to show? Were you actually alive then?

reply to post by Reheat

And just how do you know what a Jepp plate looked like in September 2001. Do you have one to show? Were you actually alive then?

Nah mate, I'm only 8...
Pretty darn smart for an 8 year old huh...

I'd say the jepp plate in 2001 would look about the same as the one from 2004,
that is unless they moved the airport...

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by backinblack

 

You've seen the FDR data..
Were the coordinates entered that of the airport.??

I don't care to troll through the more than 15 pages....any idea where they are posted, if in this thread?
Really....it would help A LOT if I just saw for myself, absent any of the "PffT" obfuscation and smoke....
The actual Lat/Longs entered into the POS INIT page, in the "SET IRS POS" field (line select at 4R) is what I need to see.

Well the airport coordinates are N38 56.7 W77 27.3
Gate D26 is listed at N38 56.7 W77 27.2

So even with the wrong coordinates entered the error should have been a max of 900'..
Still not sure why it was over 3000' and why the pilots didn't correct before leaving the gate.

Originally posted by backinblack
Nah mate, I'm only 8...
Pretty darn smart for an 8 year old huh...

I'd say the jepp plate in 2001 would look about the same as the one from 2004,
that is unless they moved the airport...

It's no wonder you can't solve the events of 0/11 at your stated age. You keep making one bad assumption after another. Perhaps you can find a responsible adult to inform you of the Jeppesen update cycle.

I believe the airport has stayed in the same location as it's always been. I'm surprised that even an 8 year old wouldn't know that.

Adults who know what they are talking about realize that as Weedwhacker eluded the airport coordinates might possibly have been the only coordinates on the airport plate in 2001. I simply don't know, but being a smart guy surely you can find an adult to help you post a plate from 2001 to show that they were or you can continue to make assumptions if you want. After all, it's entirely up to you......

Originally posted by backinblack
So even with the wrong coordinates entered the error should have been a max of 900'..
Still not sure why it was over 3000' and why the pilots didn't correct before leaving the gate.

Unfortunately, they are not currently not available for interrogation. Perhaps in a few years you might be able to ask them. That is if you go to the same place they are.

reply to post by Reheat


Do you read my posts or just jump straight in with the childish insults?

The Gate and Airport coordinates were only 1/10 of a minute different..
Not sufficient to account for the over 3000' error..

For legitimate readers who are still interested in why the pilots didn't correct their position, it has been addressed in at least two posts in the last two pages. It has also been addressed early if you were able to comprehend the material. They did not have the hindsight advantage that truthers have to know that the system was some 3000' off from their actual location if they didn't select the right switchology to see that. They visually followed the white stripe on the taxiways to go to the runway as most pilots do and didn't need electronic guidance to do that. They knew the weather was clear skies with unlimited visibility (CAVOK) for their entire route of flight and they knew they didn't need the magic equipment to fly to their destination safely. PERHAPS, It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by Reheat
For legitimate readers who are still interested in why the pilots didn't correct their position, it has been addressed in at least two posts in the last two pages. It has also been addressed early if you were able to comprehend the material. They did not have the hindsight advantage that truthers have to know that the system was some 3000' off from their actual location if they didn't select the right switchology to see that. They visually followed the white stripe on the taxiways to go to the runway as most pilots do and didn't need electronic guidance to do that. They knew the weather was clear skies with unlimited visibility (CAVOK) for their entire route of flight and they knew they didn't need the magic equipment to fly to their destination safely. PERHAPS, It's as simple as that.

edit on 8-3-2011 by Reheat because: (no reason given)

So you agree the coordinates in the FDR were inaccurate but basically it doesn't affect the flight?
That about sum up your position.?

reply to post by backinblack

When your GPS is off by 10 meters how do you know? Do you reset it? Why do you fail to reset it?

Why would you align the IRSs for being off 3,000 feet? How do you know they are off, they drift .8 NM an hour. There is guidance to align the IRS if there is an extended ground delay. What is new?

Why do you need to align the IRS when it is only off 3,000 feet? What is the position error after alignment? What do you do in-flight when the inertial position is off 10 miles? You don't have to worry, the FMC is doing all the work removing errors and keeping track.

Read more about nav systems -
boeing.com...
boeing.com...

How the pilot knows the system is off 3,000 feet? What reference system does the FDR put out for position? What is the initial error when the inertial navigation system wakes up after alignment? The inertial does not take the position it is given, it checks the position it is given against models it has as it aligns; where does it wake up? How close? Why does the FMC system change in accuracy during flight?

www.biggles-software.com...

We are talking about inertial inputs which the FMC uses as needed, and in-flight the FMC uses DME-DME to refine the position. I think the FMC also uses the runway on takeoff as the position, ignores the IRS units; why would it do that?

Each pilot has a different level of abstraction explaining the Navigation System. Each pilot sees the system differently. Most pilots may not know the inner-workings of the Navigation system, we use it, we don't have to know why it works, or how it works, just how to make it work. Like the braking system on your car with ABS, can you explain how it works? To what level of detail? It is broke when the light goes on. BINGO

On a clear day if all goes bad, we get vectors from ATC. Non pilots do not understand the airways are 8 NM wide, 3,000 foot accuracy is okay, and when we look it up, with FMC in a 757, we can get accuracy 1400 feet to 6000 feet, enough accuracy to say safely in an 8 NM wide airway. BINGO

Now and in the future, GPS, accuracy to .12 to .04 NM, down to 240 feet. Meaning we can be sure to better than 95 percent of time we are in a circle of 240 feet. The IRS is not accurate, it is back up for navigation when the GPS is not available. How will pilots for truth prove the FDR is not real, not from 77? Pilots for truth told a lie.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by backinblack

 

You've seen the FDR data..
Were the coordinates entered that of the airport.??

I don't care to troll through the more than 15 pages....any idea where they are posted, if in this thread?
Really....it would help A LOT if I just saw for myself, absent any of the "PffT" obfuscation and smoke....
The actual Lat/Longs entered into the POS INIT page, in the "SET IRS POS" field (line select at 4R) is what I need to see.

Have you not seen the FDR data the thread refers to?
I'm not sure how you are arguing your point in such detail if you haven't..