Overwhelming Evidence Pentagon Aircraft Data Is Not From An American Airlines 757

reply to post by weedwhacker


Also....to bang on some more to the IRS "update" during the takeoff aspect.....I really do NOT know if that was the procedure, at American Airlines, to use the throttle-mounted TOGA switches.

WE did (and still do), for the reason stated....IRS update. However, IF that feature was not installed, or IF the airline practiced a different standard protocol, there is an alternate way to engage the Autothrottles. Still need the switch to be in the "ARM" position.....and, the other technique used is to have the NFP (monitoring pilot) just push the proper button on the Thrust Computer panel. It is labelled "TO / GA" (The other button, or really, a switch...TWO of them, are mounted on the thrust levers themselves....you use your index finger, they are just forward of the throttle knobs).

The TMC:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3c59dbd89c13.jpg[/atsimg]

"CLB" is 'climb' power....and the '1' and '2' are programmable de-rated climb settings.....this, for many reasons depending on airplane weight, altitude, temperature and performance requirement....lower settings are preferred, when possible for longer engine life .... less "wear and tear", is the logic there.

Others are "CON" for 'continuous' (max continuous power) and of course "CRZ" for 'cruise'.


Hunting for a video example....whole lot of hobbyists' videos, in their desktop simulators...."armchair jet jocks"....but here's a real airplane, from an Irish airline, it looks like....

To me, their procedure is odd....but, that's how it happens, in aviation. Each company has slightly different techniques. The gal is flying, she's just finishing up training....and, the company apparently doesn't have the Level-D simulators, so she has to go get her "bounces" in the real thing. AN "aircraft trainer" we used to call it.

What I find odd (but, some airlines do this) the Captain is always in control of the decision to reject the take-off. so his hand is on the throttles. (We abandoned that as awkward, long ago....the time of transition was prone to confusion, in the event of an actual aborted take-off....because the Captain had to take control away from the First Officer, to make the stop. Wasted seconds of adjustment time).

SO, at that company, the Pilot Flying, (right seat) is in charge of the TMC push-button, as you see. For all take-offs. Of course that procedure lacks the IRS update feature....and possibly, was in use at American in 2001??
Again, I don't know, never flew there......

reply to post by weedwhacker


Hearing your nostalgic stories is great and all but could you just answer some questions.??

This one I asked earlier..

Another poster "reheat" says the INS corrected itself by the end of the flight to an accuracy of 200'..
Can you tell me how it did that ???

Originally posted by Reheat
I know of no one who says an airborne alignment was/is possible in the type in use by Commercial Airlines. You still seem to be confused. It is simply not possible for the airline type to align in a position other than stationary, period.

Again an ALIGNMENT is different from an UPDATE. The unit is aligned on the ground and updated beginning on the Take-Off roll via ground based Navigation Aids. The position DID NOT suddenly change to match radar, it changed over time. The ground based Navigation Aids update the unit by merely telling it where it is located at that instant. That REFINES the position and makes it more accurate. Understand now?

I'll respond with this from P4T. I recognize how you feel about them but they seem to have factual NTSB data behind their statement whereas you seem to be under the impression an airborne alignment is not possible.

Here's the P4T quote:

AUTO-ALIGNMENT AND GPS

Military aircraft were equipped with GPS (Global Positioning Systems) long before GPS was offered for Commercial use. When equipped, they can auto-align the Inertial Reference System. N644AA (American Airlines Flight 77) was not equipped with a GPS. However, when one looks through the data, it shows a GPS as "OPERational"(12) and an airborne auto-alignment (emph added). How can a GPS be "OPER" if the data is reported to come from an aircraft which doesn't have a GPS? The data shows that the Lat/Long plots auto-aligned with Radar plots in flight after departure(9). American Airlines aircraft do not have the capability of in flight alignment nor would such an aircraft depart with such a large error and an IRS as it's primary source for navigation. It is impossible for an IRS equipped American Airlines jet to give accurate position information if the system was not aligned at the gate.

I'm interested in the "airborne auto-align" portion of this. It seems you're saying Rob of P4T completely made this term up? does it exist?

reply to post by Thermo Klein

I'm interested in the "airborne auto-align" portion of this. It seems you're saying Rob of P4T completely made this term up? does it exist?

Mate, forget airborne alignment..
Yes it exists but only in military craft..

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Thermo Klein

 

You mentioned this older post from Page 12, that I'm replying to, in one of your posts on Page 14. So, referring to that image that comes from the (holding in laughter, sorry...) "Pilots" for "Truth":

Can someone please explain how this picture indicates an inflight alignment?

That picture seems to indicate a hot mess of a fertile imagination....rather par for the course, in past dealings and rantings from that group, on these topics. I think it is done like that on purpose, to "look" like they really put a lot of hard "work" into their "investigation"....bunch of eyewash.....

Thank you for your detailed explanations weedwhacker.

The picture weedwhacker is referring to is this picture.




Source - www.abovetopsecret.com...

White is the lat/long according to PRES POS LAT/LONG (DEG) from the FDR file, Yellow and Red are radar returns. You can see them merge in flight.

The original source is John Farmer. Farmer claims he plotted the above course based on Lat/Long Coordinates from the FDR file.

Source - forums.randi.org...

The 3,000+ foot offset shown at IAD appears to merge in flight after departure according to John Farmer and the FDR Data.

How is this possible if the FDR data shows more than a 3,000+ foot offset before departure?





According to the links provided by Reheat and others, including the explanation given by weedwhacker, the Lat/Long positions are aligned on the ground prior to takeoff.

On the ground, the FMC position is based on the IRS position.

Since inertial systems accumulate position errors as a function of time, the position information being used by the FMC is slowly accumulating errors. These position errors can be detected by observing the position of the airplane on the HSI map. If an extended ground delay occurs and a significant map error is noticed the IRS should be realigned and present position re-entered.

Source - www.biggles-software.com...

weedwhacker, would you have departed if you saw a 3,000+ foot lat/llong offset on your HSI map, as is shown in the FDR data?

Capt Ralph Kolstad along with other American Airlines pilots and pilots from pprune say no, they wouldn't. So, why did this aircraft depart with such a large error in lat/long?

If you say yes you would have, why should we believe you over the people mentioned above?

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
I'm interested in the "airborne auto-align" portion of this. It seems you're saying Rob of P4T completely made this term up? does it exist?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, it's made up. There is no such thing as auto-align in either Commercial or Military Aircraft. The OPER parameter is obviously the same as the Cockpit Door Switch issue. It is a parameter in the FDR IF AND/OR when the company adds GPS to their fleet. There are many parameters AVAILABLE in the FDR that are not necessarily used by all carriers. If there was GPS available on that aircraft you would be seeing infinitely better accuracy than was exhibited.. I am not an electronics wiring expert, so I'm not able to explain it in great detail any further. There is an extended discussion on this issue in one or more threads at JREF. If you're interested you may go there and review that thread. It won't be hard to find.

reply to post by BCRFiles

Yet another sock makes it's appearance......

reply to post by Reheat

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, it's made up. There is no such thing as auto-align in either Commercial or Military Aircraft.

Some military craft can realign in flight...
That's a fact....

Originally posted by Reheat
reply to post by BCRFiles

Yet another sock makes it's appearance......

What? Scared to debate real pilots so you need to get them banned.??

Kinda sad..

Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by Reheat
reply to post by BCRFiles

Yet another sock makes it's appearance......

What? Scared to debate real pilots so you need to get them banned.??

Kinda sad..

weedwhacker just called the lat/long plots done by John Farmer, "a hot mess of a fertile imagination.... a bunch of eyewash....."

and he doesn't even realize Farmer is one of his allies in their disinformation campaign.

weedwhacker should really do his research. He should perhaps start with learning the proper Jeppesen Codes for the Gate Coordinate chart.



I expect to be banned soon. Probably my posts deleted. By they are screenshot saved.

reply to post by BCRFiles


Weedwhacker doesn't seem to want to answer questions in this thread..

All I get is his "so called" past exploits which we've all heard before anyway..

reply to post by BCRFiles


Would someone from P4T challenge weedwhacker to an open debate either here or at the P4T site.??

Would be a good read..

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by BCRFiles

 

Would someone from P4T challenge weedwhacker to an open debate either here or at the P4T site.??

Would be a good read..

P4T always has an open invitation for a recorded debate. Both weedwhacker and Reheat have socks registered at the P4T forum. They don't come around much though... nor will either put their name to their claims.. .ever.

ATS bans any opposition which exposed the BS from people like Reheat and weedy.

So again, why should anyone believe people like "Reheat" or "weedwhacker" over so many verified pilots willing to put their faces, names and professional reputations on the line?

patriotsquestion911.com...

... and the list is growing.

weedwhacker is actually explaining what P4T already has... That pilots align lat/long prior to departure.

However, when weedwhacker is shown the actual data plotted from the Lat/Long in the FDR file with the 3000+ foot offset, he says, "hogwash!"

In other words, he doesnt believe the FDR data. And he shouldnt. Because pilots do align their Lat/Long prior to departure with the Gate Coordinates. As explained by P4T, the links Reheat has provided and weedy himself.

When asked if he would depart with a 3000+ foot offset in lat/long? Silence.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Reheat

 

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, it's made up. There is no such thing as auto-align in either Commercial or Military Aircraft.

Some military craft can realign in flight...
That's a fact....

How would you know? I didn't say they could not align in-flight. You continue to have a repeated reading comprehension problem. In addition, no one is interested in even being in the vicinity of charlatans and frauds, let alone add credence to their opinions in a debate or even a discussion. It builds their already inflated ego.

Originally posted by Reheat

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Reheat

 

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, it's made up. There is no such thing as auto-align in either Commercial or Military Aircraft.

Some military craft can realign in flight...
That's a fact....

How would you know? I didn't say they could not align in-flight. You continue to have a repeated reading comprehension problem. In addition, no one is interested in even being in the vicinity of charlatans and frauds, let alone add credence to their opinions in a debate or even a discussion. It builds their already inflated ego.

Mate, you contradict yourself in that post and call me a fraud etc.??
You need to grow up and learn how to debate..
You haven't got a clue, just ad ho mien attacks and silly comments..

Originally posted by backinblack

Mate, you contradict yourself in that post and call me a fraud etc.??

I am now convinced that your reading comprehension problem is intention unless the English Language is not your native tongue. You definitely need remedial reading help.

Originally posted by Reheat

Originally posted by backinblack

Mate, you contradict yourself in that post and call me a fraud etc.??

I am now convinced that your reading comprehension problem is intention unless the English Language is not your native tongue. You definitely need remedial reading help.

Interesting..Here's a few posts from you on this very page...

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying, it's made up. There is no such thing as auto-align in either Commercial or Military Aircraft.

And then....

How would you know? I didn't say they could not align in-flight.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

Hearing your nostalgic stories is great and all but could you just answer some questions.??

This one I asked earlier..

Another poster "reheat" says the INS corrected itself by the end of the flight to an accuracy of 200'..
Can you tell me how it did that ???

Airplane becomes airborne, it starts recieving VOR data, it starts triangulating its position?

reply to post by roboe

Airplane becomes airborne, it starts recieving VOR data, it starts triangulating its position?

To 200' accuracy??
Even weedwhacker stated up to 2 miles deviation was acceptable...

It should be noted that in the latest rendition of a B00by Balsamo sock that all he has to offer in the way of his "poof" that the 3000' discrepancy in lat/long position for AA 77 at IAD was out of tolerance is an "Appeal to Authority Fallacy" and an UNSOURCED reference to pprune.. He has yet to quote or post an authoritative document or flight manual reference that that was not acceptable for take-off. Until such time that he proves that and it can be verified he is (as usual) blowing smoke and promoting misleading information.