Bradley Manning could face death: For what?

Originally posted by Travlla

Julian to pale to be Aussie Assange

WTF???? What do you suspect him of being? Your xenophobia (already seen in other threads) seems to have taken a turn for the worse. Could he be - gasp, Eurotrash? Or even worse, maybe he's one of them there Nordic aliens I done hear tell of... (Oh I forgot, you claim to be an Aussie, though I suspect you moved to Australia from Bugtussle Arkansas...

,

Originally posted by TravllaNow i know everyone one has a woody over Jules and wikifreaks but what sensitive military info have they received (if any),that may put American (or any coalition country's) military members at risk? Have they sold it to the enemy ? probably not,but how many have seen this stolen info and can they all be trusted to keep their mouths shut ?

Paranoia rules okay!

The guy is a political prisoner, simple as that.

The US government is full of war criminals and corrupt people, of course they gonna go after someone who revealed their game.

RELEASE HIM AND GIVE HIM A NOBEL PRICE.

reply to post by RustyShakleford92


Where is it documented that alleged actions performed by Bradley Manning are illegal?

It's taken the law workers 10 months to arrive at the 32 charges against him.

They are trying awfully hard to land a conviction.

He's been in solitary 10 months, he's good as convicted, but on no tangible account.

reply to post by smthngmssnghr


Now I never had an American security clearance, but I had one elsewhere for some time, and I knew that if I even accessed the information WITHOUT THE NEED TO KNOW that I could and would be punished severely. Nonetheless download it and spread it around!!!! I am sure America's policy is no different than Russia's.

But something odd is that it would be impossible to download so many files so quickly off of a computer holding this information in my experience. You usually have a limit and different pass codes. How the hell did he download all that info? Really bad security measures on the military's part.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
He exposed the US military helicopter gun-ship murder of innocent civilians, and for that the US military will have it's revenge.

That is an unfortunate occurrence that does happen in times of war . . . no human being is perfect . . . including Americans. Revenge? Right!

We no longer hold ourselves or our military or our government accountable, we just line the dissidents and the whistleblowers up against a wall and fire.

All-righty then. I think that is a bit dramatic and ridiculous and there is no point in saying more on that.

The next time you see government troops committing an act of evil, be a good little American and keep your mouth shut. Don't rock the boat.

Out of all the governments in the world to be a part of, I am proud to be an American. Accidents do happen, some individuals are evil, even Americans, but I believe that "evil" people do get punished when it is deserved.

You know who else was engaged in illegal activity and a traitor to their country? George Washington. Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, the entire continental congress, every member of the colonial army. Had Washington lost the revolutionary war, England would have hanged him for the traitor he was.

The American colonists had repeatedly asked for representation from the government of England concerning laws, tariffs, legalities and such in the American colonies, they were refused this representation repeatedly. This is a little . . . well . . . ALOT different from this traitor you call a hero who had legal systems and representatives that he could have brought this up to. But no, your hero, decided it was best to disclose volumes of information, classified information, possibly and most likely sensitive national secrets that we have not seen as of yet. . . to foreign entities (hostile ones included). He was not trying to free Americans from unrepresented-oppression as the true HEROES you mention above; no this guy was after something else entirely.

You guys watch this episode about the NSA?

www.hulu.com...-p4-so-i0

reply to post by nonnez

Out of all the governments in the world to be a part of, I am proud to be an American. Accidents do happen, some individuals are evil, even Americans, but I believe that "evil" people do get punished when it is deserved.

What's not to be proud of??
They have killed millions of civilians, invaded many lands and are the only country to use nukes, and that's in a very short history..

Go Team USA..

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by Travlla

Julian to pale to be Aussie Assange

WTF???? What do you suspect him of being? Your xenophobia (already seen in other threads) seems to have taken a turn for the worse. Could he be - gasp, Eurotrash? Or even worse, maybe he's one of them there Nordic aliens I done hear tell of... (Oh I forgot, you claim to be an Aussie, though I suspect you moved to Australia from Bugtussle Arkansas...

,

Originally posted by TravllaNow i know everyone one has a woody over Jules and wikifreaks but what sensitive military info have they received (if any),that may put American (or any coalition country's) military members at risk? Have they sold it to the enemy ? probably not,but how many have seen this stolen info and can they all be trusted to keep their mouths shut ?

Paranoia rules okay!

To answer your first statement,
it was a joke,you don't get Aussie humour and that's fine,i have no idea of his family tree and his ancestral roots,he may be naturally pale or he may not get a lot of sun,i have no idea really nor do i care,it was an (poor?) attempt at humour,you know the bronzed Aussie always the beach stereo type ,
I'm xenophobic because i stated a word that has racist connotations in the UK isn't racist in Oz? that makes sense,not!
What are you implying about the people of Arkansas? I'm sure they would love to hear your opinion of them

your second statement,
Paranoia? i think not,the ? means a question,not a statement,but i know you already know that, Sorry if i wanted some people's opinion on the possibility of Jules and Wikis having highly sensitive info,and what they would do if they had it,did you notice the "probably not" and the "(if any)" ?For someone who "claims" to be an English teacher your comprehension is very poor,

But the really important question,Has my grammar been up to scratch?

Thank you for the interest in my post

This is what I cannot stand.. We protect people who have commited serious war crimes.. and people that the reast of the world thinks did a good thing, like whistle blowing, and we try and kill him..

I feel as if, we are the people trying to kill those who remind us we're on a ride.
bill hicks

reply to post by nonnez


I'm going to devote this entire post to addressing the point you brought up by saying "This is just being war and accidents happen" which pretty much means that this is to be expected because it is war and perhaps even that you think that the people involved should not be punished.

Let's all distance ourselves from everything irrelevant to this topic and switch to a more logical/fact-analyzing mode.

Facts: A US Apache helicopter engaged and killed multiple individuals in Baghdad because the pilot and gunner presumably misidentified unarmed civilians for armed insurgents.
One individual survived the first assault by the helicopter and was trying to crawl to safety when a van arrived.
Moments later, 3 individuals new to the scene were trying to pick up the injured person to presumably place in the van to transport him to a medical facility.
The apache opened fire again and presumably killed the 3 helping individuals plus the one that was already injured.
2 children in the van were found heavily wounded, their fates are unknown to me at the moment.

Ok now let's analyze the facts, shall we?
A US Apache indeed did engage and kill multiple individuals in what appears to be Baghdad.
The crew describes that the individuals are armed with AK47's and RPG's when that was not the case. The crew IS accountable for identifying threats and verifying that those are indeed threats before requesting to engage since they are the eyes and ears of the commander who has to decide whether or not to give permission to fire. They misidentified the individuals as hostile instead of neutral/friendly so let's just call that human error.

They consequentially request for fire-permission, based on the assumption that there are hostiles on the ground who need to be taken care of.
They are then given authorization to open fire and so they start shooting the people on the ground, literally tearing them apart. After the slaughter, they see one man, injured and trying to crawl to safety but they do not open fire again to finish the job. Why? because they know it is against the ROE (Rules Of Engagement).
You hear them say "Come on buddy. All you got to do is pick up a weapon" on the radio because they know the moment an individual reaches for a weapon, he will be treated as an active threat again and they (The apache crew) will be allowed to eliminate him. From what the crew of the apache was saying on the radio, it was very obvious that they were itching to kill him.

Next, a van appears and 3 men try to help the injured individual. The operator immediately misreads the situation again and goes on saying "We have individuals going to the scene, looks like possibly, uh, picking up bodies and weapons" "Let me engage" "Can I shoot?". The answer is "Roger, break"- meaning that the gunner is authorized to unleash hell again.
So he starts shooting again at the 4 men and the van and there is no more point on explaining what happened to them. 30mm rounds do damage people, lots and lots of damage.

The moment they opened fire on the van and the individuals helping the injured man, they broke 2 articles that were set forth by the Geneva convention, namely article 3 and 4 (Read HERE).
Fact is fact, they broke 2 very important articles set forth by the Geneva Convention and by doing so, have committed war crimes.
As long as the USA does not convict the individuals involved in this crime and other crimes alike, but instead supports this kind of incredible unprofessional and to be blunt, trigger-happy behavior by not punishing it, the entire US Armed Forces + Government will be held accountable for these crimes and should face charges of war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity at the world court.

Let there be no mistake that this wasn't the end of it. Two mistake were made by the crew of the Apache.The first one was mis-identifying innocents for hostiles and killing them.
The second was breaking the 2 before mentioned articles of the Geneva Convention by firing on the innocent individuals who were trying to help the Reuters reporter who was badly wounded and the van.
They (Apache crew) were the ones who were trained to identify hostiles from neutral/friendlies. They were the ones who had to study warfare and the law of war. They were the ones who ultimately decided the faiths of a dozen innocent people.

What happened afterwards? US Infantrymen discover the 2 children in the van, the girl had a big piece of glass in her eyes so one of the infantryman had to take off his gloves to carefully pull the piece of glass out of her eye so that she could blink without continuously being cut by the glass even more.
The infantrymen who were running all over the place then tried to bring the 2 children to a close-by US base where they could be treated by a more professional staff with better equipment but were soon ordered by the higher-ups to leave the kids to Iraqi police and get them treated at an Iraqi hospital which would reduce their chances of survival dramatically.


After finding out the truth, the apache crew even has the guts to say "Well, it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle" "Yup" as if nothing happened and they didn't just murder a dozen men and critically injured 2 children.
My reply: [Lots of flaming goes here] No it's actually your fault for having your head up your ass and not paying attention when you are playing with lives like a little kid playing Modern Warfare.
They didn't kill themselves by walking there, in fact, they didn't do anything wrong.
It is in fact you and your blindness and extremely trigger-happy and unprofessional behavior which lead to their deaths and the fact that there was absolutely no remorse at all in your voice or wording just means you are that much of a thug. I hope you get what you deserve.

Ok, sorry for the rant fellas.. seeing the footage again stirred some very old emotions within me but I'll continue.

After this ordeal, the government first reported that they were all insurgents and swept it under the rug.
Then they changed the story to "They were reacting to a firefight".
Even now that this footage has been released through Wikileaks, allegedly by Mr Manning, the men responsible have still not been convicted.

Here you can do further research on other cases where a lot of civvies were killed by coalition-forces (Mainly US) and covered up until Mr. Manning and Wikileaks brought them to light.

Also, please don't give me the "Its just war" bull#. I know what war is, more than most of you who have never set foot in Iraq or Afghanistan. Mistakes like this are unacceptable. This isn't a split-second hostage rescue door-breach decision where a Special Forces Operative accidentally shoots and kills a civilian.
They had the extra few seconds and the equipment in the Apache to make a 100% positive ID on those "weapons" before opening fire like the idiots they are.



IT--

I would give you 1000 stars if I could for this post! (But I can't even give one for some strange reason, maybe my connection's playing up? Thank you for your honesty and courage.
Vicky

Originally posted by edog11
Mr. Manning is facing the death-penalty for "aiding the enemy". Instead of recognizing Mr Manning as an international hero, he is treated inhumanely and is facing life in prison or even the death penalty. Why?

It's called Treason, and every soldier, sailor, airman, and Marine knows the penalty. Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg - yes it also applies to civilians - found this out the hard way. Manning knew what he was doing when he stole classified documents and then gave them to Wikileaks, and he also knew the penalty for his actions if caught; so I have not a shred of pity for him.

He betrayed his country, his oath, and worst of all - his fellow soldiers. Let him burn.

Originally posted by gemineye
reply to post by edog11

 

I think what it boils down to is that the ole gubment's pissed and they're going to hit him as hard as they possibly can.

True, he did break the rules and broke the law, but death is really pushing it, big time.

edit on 3/3/2011 by gemineye because: (no reason given)

Its terribly simple:
because when you leak "some"(even by itself "innocuous") classified information people can die.( who otherwise would not have).Politics aside whether you agree or not is never the issue. The military is placed in situations( by civilians no less) where people are actively trying to stop them by individually killing them.

IE.Even "unclassified info ;say supply requests" :4x7th fighter squadron( flying block III f-15e "beagles" with upgraded cockpits for release of chemical munitions(?).(I made all that up) currently assigned to Bumpus air base Mississippi orders 500 gallons of sunblock; 5000 cases of bottled water and flight maps of djbouti... That's kinda valuable information to have if you are an insurgeant in djibouti.. .

Originally posted by edog11
Mr. Manning is facing the death-penalty for "aiding the enemy". Instead of recognizing Mr Manning as an international hero, he is treated inhumanely and is facing life in prison or even the death penalty. Why? For bringing the truth out no matter how disgusting it is- truth that is being kept away from us, the people, by those in power so that they may stay in power for their own selfish motives. The same truth that if it gets enough public attention, may cause the prosecution of many up until now unrecognized criminals in the government and military.

He and Wikileaks are probably the main reasons for the Middle-East uprising and the subsequent revolutions that have lead and are leading to the overthrowing of corrupt and tyrannical governments- The same governments that were being kept in power by the USA to begin with.

Justice is not free and neither freedom. Either we demand to have justice or we shut up and let our freedoms be robbed from us one little bit at a time.

www.salon.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

edit on 3-3-2011 by edog11 because: (no reason given)

Betraying your country at a time of WAR is punishable BY DEATH. It is called treason. Hell back in WW2 when the Russians were trying to flee their supervisors would shoot and kill them on the spot....

reply to post by RustyShakleford92


Then why wasn't Prescott Bush (the granddaddy and daddy) put to death for treason????
He held money in a New York Bank for Hitler and was even partners with Thysson which produced and sold the gas to Hitler to exterminate the Jews
Hum kind of interesting how he got a slap on the wrist and had to get out of banking and so gave him an oil business and thus how the Bush family wound up in texas.
And even better that his son and grandson become presidents of the USA
Oh yes and also look up the coup that took place in New Hampshire involving the Rockefeller s, chase, morgan etc and were all turned in by GENERAL SMEDLEY BUTLER and ALL LET GO FREE
There is more treason on the shores of the USA than anywhere and if treason should be punished then ALL of the USA politicians and wall streeters and CEOS should be given the death penalty!!!!

Originally posted by Travlla
Some country's such as Australia have laws against "receiving stolen goods" goods in this instance are the data Manning allegedly stole,Julian to pale to be Aussie Assange and wikileaks have made $$$$ (donations) from said stolen goods,so one could possibly say they are also guilty of "selling stolen goods ",a long stretch perhaps i will admit that,Now i know everyone one has a woody over Jules and wikifreaks but what sensitive military info have they received (if any),that may put American (or any coalition country's) military members at risk? Have they sold it to the enemy ? probably not,but how many have seen this stolen info and can they all be trusted to keep their mouths shut ?

How are you to determine why someone donates to wikileaks? Are you saying that none of the other leaks before this release matter?

I think one of the most telling things about the charges against manning is that the prosecution refuses to define who the enemy is that Manning supposedly aided. Considering that US military personnel and their family members have been repeatedly admonished not to view the leaks, although they have been printed in the new york times, I wonder if the enemy is us, the people.

Originally posted by laslidealist
reply to post by RustyShakleford92

 

Then why wasn't Prescott Bush (the granddaddy and daddy) put to death for treason????
He held money in a New York Bank for Hitler and was even partners with Thysson which produced and sold the gas to Hitler to exterminate the Jews
Hum kind of interesting how he got a slap on the wrist and had to get out of banking and so gave him an oil business and thus how the Bush family wound up in texas.
And even better that his son and grandson become presidents of the USA
Oh yes and also look up the coup that took place in New Hampshire involving the Rockefeller s, chase, morgan etc and were all turned in by GENERAL SMEDLEY BUTLER and ALL LET GO FREE
There is more treason on the shores of the USA than anywhere and if treason should be punished then ALL of the USA politicians and wall streeters and CEOS should be given the death penalty!!!!

Wy isn't A.G. Holder prosecuting the black panthers or Goldman Sachs execs???????????????
because the govt is f'dup and deemsitself above the law... They have to discourage rank and file foot Soldiers from breaking "confidence"...

Doesn't really matter what you think. Manning joined up. He took an oath. He violated that oath and betrayed his country. His actions have arguably caused people to die. He probably won't face the death penalty, but it would be fine with me if he did. If anyone deserves it, he does. The Left likes to turn villains into heroes and heroes into villains. Viva Che--not.

reply to post by schuyler


It is clear that Manning thought what he was doing was right. On the counts of illegally accessing classified info and distributing it, clearly he is guilty. That is why the "aiding the enemy" charge is so dubious, its unnecessary and unclear who the enemy is. Again, the New York Times is also guilty of aiding the enemy by publishing the leaked info on the internet. According to policy, just because classified info is leaked doesn't make it unclassified, so please prosecute the NYT and other media as well.

Seeing as that will never happen it is safe to say that our government is hypocritically over-punishing a PFC while the real blame should lay on the perpetrators of crimes revealed and on poor security for classified documents. A PFC, I think he was a specialist at the time, was able to successfully leak troves of data from the Army and State Department. If anyone's head should roll its the officers appointed over him that failed to secure their data and obey the laws of warfare and human decency.