'Anonymous' targets the brothers Koch, claiming attempts 'to usurp American Democracy'

reply to post by Daughter2

First point, even if you don't like firefighters, school teachers and the police getting paid well and organizing, you don't complete your goal by paying off politicians- either directly or indirectly.

Second, guess what, Sally Taxpayer is very likely a teacher or firefighter! Or as you like to call them fat little piggies (pretty degrading terms for firefighters and school teachers).

Funny you don't think BILLIONAIRES LIKE THE KOCH BROTHERS ARE FAT PIGGIES? Do they risk their lives every day like firefighters? Do they teach little kids?

And even if they aren't - let's say Sally works in accounting. If Mr. Koch can't hire an accountant because they all work for the State, then he is going to match wages.

Now let me guess, you will say this will drive business out - which might be true. But if your only solution is to lower wages so we can compete with the standard of living of India or China - that's a pretty poor solution in my book.

I would rather focus on keeping the AVERAGE standard of living higher by other means.

You shouldn't make so many assumptions about who or what I like. But bringing the firefighters into the discussion to scoop the emotional vote was pretty good, I must admit.

Anyhoo, since the biggest chunk of your reply was nothing but attempts to paint me as a union-busting police hater, I'm going to disregard it as drivel. But there was one part which summarized your philosophy and politics:

I would rather focus on keeping the AVERAGE standard of living higher by other means

This is the essence of a socialist. Barry O's favorite worker bee. They want to raise the standard of living for some by lowering it for others. Tax the rich to feed the poor. The old "Redistribution of Wealth" sleight of hand.

The problem with your scam is, sooner or later the money runs out. There is no more left to suck out of the rich.
And, while the standard of living has improved for some people, the OVERALL standard has fallen. And it will continue to sink into the fetid muck of socialism.

Me, I believe in the adage "A rising tide lifts all boats".

Again, this thread isn't about unions - it's about using wealth to receive favorable political treatment.

If that power plant is sold to the Koch brothers and they use it to raise energy prices - it's going to hurt small business more than State employees. This transaction is the ULTIMATE non-market based transaction!

So I see what the Koch brothers did harmed private non-unionized employees and small business MORE than State workers.



But I will respond briefly to your attempt to steer this conversation away. When I said other means, I was talking about innovation - remember the 1990 wages and unemployment. Employees were happy and business was doing pretty good too.

Besides,making working people poorer isn't redistribution of wealth. Lower wages and high unemployment hurts small businesses too. If Sally the school teacher takes a pay cut she'll start cutting her lawn service or not taking that week-end trip. Though this might sound good to you, it sucks for the small business landscaper and inn owner!

Remember what Ford said - he wanted to pay his employees enough to be able to afford a Ford.

reply to post by mishigas


Let's see, net worth of the top ten of the Forbes 400, just the ten, is over a quarter trillion dollars.


Yep, share any of that or pay a decent wage and why, thery'll be broke before you can blink. Oh, I forgot about the other 390...ok, make that before you can blink twice.


I really, really, really find it difficult to understand why some people think that asking someone to not be quite so greedy is somehow un-American.

Sheesh.

reply to post by apacheman

I really, really, really find it difficult to understand why some people think that asking someone to not be quite so greedy is somehow un-American.

Who is calling them un-American? You? Because I'm not.

Or is this one of those little tricks people use to paint a false label on somebody?

"Just give me a little, Mr Rich man. Don't be so greedy. Of course, *I* will decide when you have enough money left. That is my right, after all."

Let's see, net worth of the top ten of the Forbes 400, just the ten, is over a quarter trillion dollars.

That's $250 billion. Average $25 billion each. Those lofty numbers have been reached decades ago, by the Waltons, Gates, oil emirs, and others. Today there are rap stars worth a billion. Big deal. That doesn't give you the right to scab it off of them just because you were getting stoned and fishing while they were working their asses off. ( Figurative you, not literal )

Yep, share any of that or pay a decent wage and why, thery'll be broke before you can blink. Oh, I forgot about the other 390...ok, make that before you can blink twice

Hey, a Chinese can subsist on $2 a day. How come you need a hundred times that amount? Maybe if you weren't so greedy....

reply to post by Daughter2

Again, this thread isn't about unions - it's about using wealth to receive favorable political treatment.

If that power plant is sold to the Koch brothers and they use it to raise energy prices - it's going to hurt small business more than State employees. This transaction is the ULTIMATE non-market based transaction!

So you think that's the way power companies are run? You just buy a generating plant and start charging $1000 a day to light up a 3 bedroom ranch?

It's a little more complex than that, bunky. Utilities are among the most regulated industries on earth. But that was a refreshingly naive view of life you had there....

But...BUT...if you really want to see how to destroy a nation using energy, look at the Cap and Trade bill that Barry O. tried to slide in. Now that was greed and fraud at it's best!

So I see what the Koch brothers did harmed private non-unionized employees and small business MORE than State workers.

What exactly did they do? I've seen no evidence. I've only heard rumors, coming from a leftist group.

But I will respond briefly to your attempt to steer this conversation away. When I said other means, I was talking about innovation - remember the 1990 wages and unemployment. Employees were happy and business was doing pretty good too.

That was the dot-com boom, and it was a mere bubble that burst when people realized there was no real product to back up the exorbitant stock prices these dotcoms were getting. That's when the house of cards fell..

Besides,making working people poorer isn't redistribution of wealth. Lower wages and high unemployment hurts small businesses too. If Sally the school teacher takes a pay cut she'll start cutting her lawn service or not taking that week-end trip. Though this might sound good to you, it sucks for the small business landscaper and inn owner!

You don't get it yet, do you? Money (wealth) is not created from thin air. It takes a good idea and a whole lot of sweat equity to succeed. Government has no business setting prices or wages. That's why there is such corruption in government. Don't blame the Koch boys - blame the Obamas. The Koch's are only playing the game by the rules that Obama drew up. It behooves Obama to support the unions - they pay him from the union dues they collect. That's why Obama sent OFA members into Madison to help the protestors.

Originally posted by Daughter2
What anonymous is doing is going to have little effect. You think the Koch brothers are sitting at their computers? Those type of people don't do any work and are certainly wealthy enough to withstand a few days of their site going down!

What if we leak their internal emails? Coming soon to a news outlet near you.

Originally posted by PplVSNWO
Apparently anonymous, doesn't have the ability to read the bill that they are trashing. It doesn't say "Koch Industries" specifically anywhere.

You have yet had a chance to read internal emails.

Originally posted by Daughter2
What anonymous is doing is going to have little effect. You think the Koch brothers are sitting at their computers? Those type of people don't do any work and are certainly wealthy enough to withstand a few days of their site going down!

Until the way campaign financing is changed, you will see more and more of favorable contracts given to wealthy donors. There's also the indirect contributions - like trips to California - jobs after the election - or favorable bills.

Something drastic has to happen like funding elections out of a central pool and strict regulations on employment after the election.

And yes, this type of stuff happens with the left as well as the right. Look at the current mayoral election here in Chicago. Money and fame bought him the election.

But as I said before the right has more money so they will always be at the advantage.

edit on February 28th 2011 by Daughter2 because: (no reason given)

They don't need to be at their pc's their companies all run on pc's and they are on all the time.

There are people on this board who will defend the Koch brothers to the death simply because they represent right wing interests.

Either way I don't think Anon can stop them as most of the "right wing" communication is actually done off-line. They have a large pool that isn't exactly tech-savvy.

Koch aren't the bad guys. They provide lots of a well paying jobs and make lots of goods and services available. The economically uninformed people in this thread want to crush Koch Industries, but that's a horrible idea. If we crushed every corporation like many in this thread seem to want, we'd all have to live without energy, consumer goods, jobs, etc. I don't mean we'd get all these things for free from nature and its vast network of money trees, wild consumer goods we could hunt and trap, and the other life necessities that fall from the sky all the time.

Be careful what you wish for and learn the first thing about economics (real economics) before you pollute the marketplace of ideas with uninformed, baseless, naive notions.

The big mistake is thinking there are any motivations in play except for money and power...

any human concerns and conditions are just window dressing.


Having worked union shops in the past and found it to be the most horrifyingly mob run communist stupidity..
I went to a non union shop and put them number one in the world in the catagory that was my department.

Union 30 employees ave time 1 hour 25 min
Non union 12 employees ave 4.5 minutes
SAME AMOUNT OF WORK DONE
the union shop tried to insert a sabatour but he was discovered and fired.
*ankers

Unions promote intense crappiness.
we have governments and votes to maintain standards

but no one has the money to pay for nothings anymore
ecxept the bankers that are pulling the (your) wires for their benefit not yours.

when teachers here in Kanukistan went on strike they made it clear their paychecks were more important then the childrens' educations.
Of course as I have said home schoolers score higher then public schoolers.
go union

reply to post by DimensionalDetective


The majority of the wealth in America floats at the very tippy top and the % of the wealth they control is only getting bigger. In fact the inbalance is worse then in the middle ages. Yet still you hear people crying out to end vile Unions and how evil socialist Obama will "redistribute the wealth". It's a classic power play where the average citizen has been lulled into apathy and made to fear the very concepts that will better their conditions. Thing is though that those in power will not give up nicely and go away, they will use their power and influence to take away the tools of those who would oppose them. If Anonymous stabs at the heart of corrupt politics/Corporation, the poop is going to hit the fan in ways we cannot even imagine.

motherjones.com...

Anonymous comes through again, I can't wait to see the result of this campaign.

This is definitely something I support, as big business and the elite are systematically working to destroy the existence of an educated middle class.

Where can I go to donate funds to this cause?

I'm an not a fan of unions. Anybody who follows the unions knows that the ulterior motive is for union leaders to get obscenely wealthy off the backs of the workers. Furthermore, I think unions undermine free enterprise.

Have you been to Detroit lately? The auto industry in Michigan is the epitome of union destruction. Hundreds of thousands if not millions of people out of work, if you include all of the tier II and III suppliers. And what was the union able to do about it? Nothing! Where is the union now? The filthy rich union leaders are still filthy rich union leaders and the people they were "leading", have been led to the slaughter.

And worse, while Detroit was sinking into the abyss, the sheeple in Michigan continued to vote Democrat. Jennifer Granholm destroyed Michigan as did the corrupt "leaders" in Detroit. The last time Michigan had a balanced budget and was debt free was under John Engler, a Republican. If you look at the number of large businesses that are still striving in the U.S. you will find they are non-union. Wal-Mart is a perfect example. People complain about Wal-Mart, the low pay, poor benefits, etc. but I can promise you, if Wal-Mart is unionized they will close up shop and move to Mexico or China. It may take a few years, but that's what will happen. Then those same people will be crying because they can't find work and it will be everybody's fault but their own.

I don't believe an individual with nothing more than a high school education is worthy of $70/hr. after factoring in benefits. When somebody's job entails screwing on a wheel with an air wrench, for 8 hours a day, they should be paid accordingly, not according to what the criminal shake-down artists dictate. In short, the union workers in Michigan got exactly what they deserved.

This is NOT to say I don't believe in protecting workers from abuse. However, we have minimum wage, OSHA, EOEA and a host of other federal regulations to deal with such things.

What I've seen really promote productivity is profit sharing, but that's something you NEVER see anymore.
I'm not anti-union, just wish unions wouldn't vote themselves and negotiate themselves out of jobs, but if they do, at least they did it together.

The energy grab without contract seems really corrupt. I hope it is covered better by the media and if Anon doing this helps accomplish that, then grey hat off to them.

Koch is a destroyer of the american political system..good for them.
They took the tea party and turned it into the palin tea party express culture warrior crap. They spend insane amounts of money to spread disinformation and dumb down the discussions. They own many politicians full stop. They would do well to disappear.

Not a fan (nor a opponent of) anonymous..each action should be taken for what it is and not some pattern, however, the mainstream actions they do I do like seeing. I wish anon would become chaotic good as a whole verses chaotic neutral...focus on the big monsters like this verses "lets wreck some guys facebook" at the same note.

Originally posted by apacheman
I really, really, really find it difficult to understand why some people think that asking someone to not be quite so greedy is somehow un-American.

Sheesh.

Those people, whom do not value different ideas and opinions, are ironically the epitome of anti-americanism actually. America is defined by its freedom to speak and have all sorts of different views...not financial gain. Dictatorships have rich people...they are confusing american ideals with simple human desires of wanting it all...which you don't need to be in the west for that.

Laugh at those mindsets...they are the ditch diggers of society (no matter what their job is).

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

Who cares what we live in as long as we make it work?

I fail to see what good this clarification will do in the long run.

I care, and the Founding Fathers care.

We have a constitution and the people of each state elect representatives who then represent them in national issues and national law. This system acts as a buffer against radical changes in national policy based on fads, whims, and minority factions. This is the stability in our nation. We all know someone who should count to 10 before they react; Our system is a national way of counting to 10 before we change.

The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy.

In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%]. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable.






You should care too!

Originally posted by mishigas
Hey, a Chinese can subsist on $2 a day. How come you need a hundred times that amount? Maybe if you weren't so greedy....

edit on 28-2-2011 by mishigas because: (no reason given)

Kings wages.

People in sub saharian africa exist on nothing a day, finding food, etc...

Yes, we can exist on pretty much nothing a day..true, our poor and needy doesnt need government assistance and we can take a darwinian approach to life.
Let me ask you something then...if that is how it goes, what exactly makes the western society "great"? Countrys are judged not on how the tippy top live, but how the general population live, and most certainly how the poor live.
So...are you a fan of pretty much all citizens doing quite well, or just a small percent doing well and the rest chasing rats around to eat? What is your vision for the country, some 18th century haves and have nots, or some futuristic star trek style everyone has comfort and the ambitious have luxerys type? I tend to favor the second bit there of course, because I have a desire for us to be slightly better than a pack of moles, however, I guess others would love to see a mostly crap country.

Yes, a starving person shouldn't feel entitled to a piece of bread by their brother whom has more bread than he will ever need...however, the "good" thing for the both of them is a bit of sharing on the super excess...no?

Because give the starving man long enough, and he will simply kill the greedy man and take his bread to give to the starving...turn on the TV and note whats going on in the middle east today..this is not some new phenomona..this is the have nots finally having enough and destroying the haves.

Now look at denmark today and note...no news or complaints coming from there. now ask why

reply to post by antonia


It is doubly amazing how people will jump to conclusions and make # up to vilify a company and a governor.

Street goes both ways.


ANd I am not a Republican.