Don't Respond to Obvious Trollery, Just Alert It

reply to post by masqua


But there are some in here that are, well, just Shills. And it don't take an alert button to figure that out.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by sonofliberty1776

 

Personally, I think that stretches the TnC too far, but............Im not a mod. Or is it just the use of the word "shill?" Can you ask if someone is a paid government representative as long as you dont use the "s" word?

Clearly, you were not alone in your feeling. I guess the lesson learned here is just abandon the thread to the "person" rather than speak to them for fear you might bring down the wrath of Mod upon you.

I think it has nothing to do with any particular word as much as the intention of undermining a person's argument just because of what you perceive them to be.

If I understand correctly the issue is that by calling a member anything is not beneficial to the discussion. If we take issue something someone says attack the substance of their argument and not them.

If a person really is a shill or some other label and are simply regurgitating information that is wrong it should be easy to tear down their argument without taking the easy way and discrediting them personally.

If you only attack an argument you are not trolling, a personal attack is a troll maneuver intended to discredit and anger the member.

Originally posted by masqua

For example if I felt a person was a shill I know it would be libelous to just go out and say "You're a shill!"

Yes.

Not entirely true. A defamatory remark is only libellous if it isn't demonstrably true. However as it is almost impossible to prove that a person is a shill, it is potentially libellous. I know in UK law the burden of proof lies with the person accused of libel.

In the UK, if someone thinks that what you wrote about them is either defamatory or damaging, the onus will be entirely on you to prove that your comments are true in court. In other words, if you make the claim, you've got to prove it!
www.urban75.org...

So if you call somebody a shill and cannot prove they are - that is libel.

Originally posted by Pimander

In the UK, if someone thinks that what you wrote about them is either defamatory or damaging, the onus will be entirely on you to prove that your comments are true in court. In other words, if you make the claim, you've got to prove it!
www.urban75.org...

So if you call somebody a shill and cannot prove they are - that is libel.

Good point.

So, those who presume and state online, without proof, that some member is a shill, they may very well face legal action if the personal attack is capable of causing damage to the reputation of that individual.

No wonder ATS has included defamation within it's T&C's.

how the hell is this thread still going surly its title alone is enough to get the point across

reply to post by monkofmimir


Because it is important to be allowed to call a member a shill without repercussions, I guess.

It's like not seeing the tree for the forest.

Edit:

Or is it not seeing the forest for the tree? Yeah, that's the ticket.

It's hard sometimes though to distinguish whether someone is actually trolling or if they are really that dim

reply to post by masqua


Please clarify this for me.. First you say this-
"YES... calling another member a shill is against the T&C's. It is defamatory. " quote
But then you say that its important to call another member a shrill without being worried of any repercussions! If even the moderators, whether they be super or not, can't work out the finer details of ATS rules then how are we normal members who aren't "super"

reply to post by CholmondleyWarner


It's all in the context.

In reply to this comment...

Originally posted by monkofmimir

how the hell is this thread still going surly its title alone is enough to get the point across

I said the following...

Originally posted by masqua
reply to post by monkofmimir

 

Because it is important to be allowed to call a member a shill without repercussions, I guess.

I wasn't saying you could call someone a shill. What I WAS saying is that some just cannot accept that fact.

I know... it's very confusing.

reply to post by masqua


Phew... very glad to know my "facetious" meter was working properly.
Sometimes, ya know, it's hard to tell...

reply to post by LadySkadi


Yes... one needs to be very careful with even light sarcasm on-line. It easily gets misconstrued (as in this case) and I should know better by now.

Live and learn

Sometimes I wonder if some of the moderators on here haven't had a sense of humour bypass operation? I've read open insults and name calling go unchecked and seen casual wise cracks or funny comments get removed for T&C violations.
Its a huge problem on here. Its understandable when its an American member who gets the wrong end of the stick when reading a Canadian or British post which contains humour as most Americans don't understand the concept of irony. They have an irony defisciency problem... Thats why now if I include a comment not meant to be taken seriously I usually don't take it for granted that everyone will understand the nature of said comment, so I include one of these..

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
Sometimes I wonder if some of the moderators on here haven't had a sense of humour bypass operation?

I got mine shortly after the last American election. No anaesthetic, just the hammer and chisel.

I've read open insults and name calling go unchecked and seen casual wise cracks or funny comments get removed for T&C violations.

This is what happens when a dozen or so mods look after around 700 members plinking about 8000 posts out in a day and it ultimately shows how important it is that really bad T&C infractions get alerted by the membership. We honestly can't do it all by ourselves. But I do understand your point about wise cracks and funny comments. Thing is, if they're not on topic, they get removed as such. If they are, I think they'd stay up.

Its a huge problem on here. Its understandable when its an American member who gets the wrong end of the stick when reading a Canadian or British post which contains humour as most Americans don't understand the concept of irony. They have an irony defisciency problem... Thats why now if I include a comment not meant to be taken seriously I usually don't take it for granted that everyone will understand the nature of said comment, so I include one of these..

It's not even as large as the countries they're from. It can be as close as another state or province. How many [place group here] does it take to screw in a light bulb? In Canada, the jokes are east west and in america, they're east, west, north and south. In the British Isles, I'm sure it's the same and I bet Australians and New Zealanders pick on each other all the time.

The important thing to understand is that when we get together socially, the banter is qualified by a grin, a smile or a friendly pat on the back but online, if you don't include a winking smilie, it can get ugly fast. Body language, in real life, is everything when we jive each other. Not possible on the boards and even that added smilie can be ignored at times.

reply to post by CholmondleyWarner


Are those racist generalizations about Americans? Dont be defamatory, cant you read?

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by CholmondleyWarner

 

Are those racist generalizations about Americans? Dont be defamatory, cant you read?

You're supposed to just alert it! Can't you read?

Couldn't be American - that would just be too ironic.

Originally posted by Pimander

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by CholmondleyWarner

 

Are those racist generalizations about Americans? Dont be defamatory, cant you read?

You're supposed to just alert it! Can't you read?

Couldn't be American - that would just be too ironic.

Haha, in my opinion it is a fact that Americans sometimes (usually) don't get the British, Australian or Canadian sense of humour especially if it involves sarcasm or irony! Wasn't meant as an insult just an observation...

reply to post by CholmondleyWarner


Talk about making things difficult!

A British Troll, and Australian Troll, and an American Troll walk into a bar... and the only thing I could think of that would be funny would probably get me banned so I'll refrain.

Either way I do agree that a lot of British humor is lost on many Americans, however, everywhere I turn someone is talking about some great BBC comedy or really any British comedy so I wouldn't imagine it is lost altogether.

I think we could go so far as to say that regional humor is often lost on anyone not from the same region. This is one of the reasons when you're cracking a joke try to make sure it would be very difficult to take the wrong way. There are a ton of humor sites out there so it would be all right in my opinion to limit humor in most of the forums.

Most good humor is mean, and even with a smiley can be taken the wrong way. I'm not going to start quoting George Carlin even though he is my hero I could grab a line from any of his routines and crack up half the people here and the other half would scream for my head.

Anyway most of the trolls make me laugh and I do think they are trying to be funny, but that doesn't mean it is conducive to the environment that is being fostered here.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by masqua

 

Why doesn't ATS simply ban the trolls??

I see multiple members with thousands of posts ALL in the same forum..
They are obviously here for ONE reason...Trolling....

I'll tell you why. Traffic. The less traffic that ATS gets, the less money the owners make.

I guess we could all refuse to post until the troll is banned? A bit of member power?

I always love it when the topic of trolls comes up. They are never going to go away and should be dealt with by ATS staff in a way that makes them move on to some other website like GLP, 4chan, etc.

A couple of things that would get this rolling is:
1. Have the words/catch phrases "idiot", "you're stupid", "you're a moron", etc. sound a bell the same way f*** and other nasty words do. Then, this would alert the mods to the post(s) and stop this in its tracks. Nobody should ever be called an idiot for having the guts to discuss an idea or thought that they have. NOBODY! I don't care if you think you saw Nixon standing on the White House lawn and want to talk about it. I may recommend you get new glasses, but I will never call you an idiot. On the other hand, we should be able to call whoever the thread is about (ex. Sorcha Faal, etc.) an idiot because it isn't hurting any of the participating members' feelings and it's relevant to the topic.
Which leads me to #2

2. The mods need to immediately block posts that tell the Op to get on psych meds. This is not acceptable and it should never be tolerated. I don't care if you think giant rats are eating holes in the moon and are building a space ship to come and eat earth, nobody deserves to be told to go on psych meds. I would bet that 99.9% of the people who tell others to get meds are NOT doctors anyways.

3. (I know this is going to strike a nerve, but...) The mods should not be allowed to have friend and foe lists. As soon as a member becomes a mod, their friend/foe list should be terminated. It alludes to the idea that the boards are not being moderated with an unbiased view. I know that I'm on a certain mod's foe list. How do I know that he/she hasn't told other mods to keep a closer eye on me? I'm not saying I believe this to be the case, but if the mods are supposed to be unbiased, they don't need to be displaying who their friends are and certainly not the people they dislike.

Anyways, these ideas are just my 0.02 cents. Take it for what you will and have a great day!

reply to post by Pimander


That's quite an accusation and completely unfounded by fact. Never once, in all my time as a moderator, have I been restricted by either the administration or my fellow moderators in any actions which I've taken in the cause of advertising dollars.

As far as refraining from posting until a troll is banned, you have that right, but do staff a favour before you do and put a complaint against said troll first so that we'll know why everyone suddenly stopped posting.

OK?