Exclusive: Non-partisan 'US Uncut' group demands corporations pay taxes

reply to post by schuyler


First as someone who does both corporate and private tax preparation for those who insist on being "Tax Payers" yes the actual rates for the middle class are 25 to 33% of their taxable income.

However self employed people pay even more at around 40 to 42% significantly higher than wage earners, as they have to pay a seperate tax on their Business and then the regular tax that Business Generated for them as their Personal Income.

So answer me this:

1. If Self Employed people with a DBA that file income taxes have to pay taxes on their Business why shouldn't corporations?

2. If corporations shouldn't have to pay taxes, then why should we as so called 'citizens' have to pay personal income taxes on money earned through laboring for the corporations?

Since the Government directs the private Federal Reserve to manufacture the currency out of thin air, why then can it not manufacture enough to pay for it's own programs?

While you are thinking about that, why can't it pay for it's own programs through the lease of raw materials, land, and buildings that it owns?

Even then on top of the revenues it does recieve in what are often sweetheart deals to corporations, combined with the Taxes extracted from the people it still has to borrow money?

You might want to think through your arguments at some point.

Thanks.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776


No we don't agree, it isn't the only way.

Try cutting executive salaries first. Make it a law that no corporation can pay an exececutive more than 30 times the lowest paid worker in their corporation.

Corporations don't have an obligation to "maximize profits", nor do they have a "right" to. They have a right to a fair profit, but not at the expense of the society that pays for their protection, the infrastructure they use, the education of their workforce, etc.

Taxes aren't an expense like raw materials, they are the fee paid for the privilege of doing business within the country.

The taxes a corporation pays shouldn't be passed on the the consumer/worker, any more than a worker can charge an employer for the taxes they pay. Those taxes should come from the corporate profits before the dividends are paid out, not tacked onto the price of product so the someone else pays them.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
The only way a corporation could pay taxes is by cutting a part of it's gross receipts and giving that money to the government. We all agree on this, correct? So, I ask you then, who is really paying those taxes? Corporations are going to try to maximize profits, this is a given. They will see taxes as an "expense", a cost of doing business. As with all other costs associated with doing business, the corporation will attempt to recover those costs. How will they do this? They will pass the cost, ie the taxes, along to the purchaser of their product/service in the form of higher prices. Thus I ask again, who is actually "paying" those corporate taxes???????

Well using your logic I can ask YOU, who really pays personal income taxes. After all, if you tax the individual, they will demand a higher wage and buy less. Which means less money to business.

Works that way right?

The economy is a machine - works with both the individual and business.

I see taxes as a fee for government services and goods.

Not only do corporations use things like police, fire and roads, they also benefit from services provided to individuals such as schools and universities.

Why shouldn't they pay for these benefits?

reply to post by charles1952

This seems to be a fairly extreme position. I don't think people see it that way. I would be astonished to find out that there is actual paper work exists showing the US is a corporation. Who would examine their books and fine them for non-compliance?

You might want to look at your Census Form sent to you by the United States Inc with a trade mark attached.

The United States and every Government Agency you can think of is Incorporated in the State of Delaware.

Deleware has the best tax laws and shelters to hide the owners of offshore shelf companies.

If you study history a little you will find that the United States declared bankruptcy back during the great depression and required all the states to incporate as entities under it, and it too had to incorporate to get protections through the International Bankruptcy court.

Yes the United States is incorporated and long has been.

More interesting is that the District of Columbia is (a.) considered a territory, territories have their own legal distinction that is usually International in it's definition (b.) the District of Columbia which all states are incorporated under is one of three city states that is not bound by the laws of the nation it dwells within.

These three city states in the world Washington D.C., The Incorporated Disctrict of London (the one square mile that was the ancient Roman city of Londinium, and Vatican City are all entities that are not bound by the laws of their larger nations that they oversee. The queen of England actually is not even allowed to enter the District of London unless with the Mayor's expressed approval and escort, the Vatican is the only place on Earth where no one gets to vote in any fashion on any issue, the College of Cardinals simply vote on who the Pope will be, the Pope then decrees everything. Each cardinal represents a diocese (Roman State) throughout the world.

Washington D.C. likewise in part to be able to grant government officials immunity from acts in office, is not bound by the laws of the land, and until recently wasn't even allowed a representative to congress that makes the law of the land. The combined Congress has juristiction over Washington D.C.

Are you saying that the Vatican has announced "The world thinks there is x amount of gold, but we have more than that ourselves?" Further, how can you know Ft. Knox is empty?

Yes the Vatican's book display more gold in it's posession than is believed to be mined.

You should be able to find a thread or two on this on ATS.

We might base that conclusion off of some angry Chinese bankers who got some Gold plated tungston bars shipped to them by Ft. Knox.

You can find that through ATS Search too.

A contractual international agreement is also known as a treaty. Treaties rank in authority with the Constitution. It is unconstitutional to say the Pope isn't God? How many Muslim nations signed this treaty?

You mean the Muslim Kings and leaders who bow to the Pope and kiss his ring and defer to him in all protocols, where even the Taliban called on him to stop the U.S. Governments proselytizing in Afghanistan?

The Pope by an 1892 law passed by Congress legally has a right to strike down any law in the United States he doesn't approve of?

That Pope?

Not only am I not having an off day, but in my extremely popular All Roads Lead to Rome thread you can find hundreds of pages that link to all the original documents and treaties and laws and quite a bit more.

Not to mention the Papal Bulla that decreed everything west of the Azores belonged to Rome in 1491, one convenient year before Columbus discovered American in 1492.

By the way, I offer you this as a word of caution, since you are new to the site and presumably conspiracies, you are beginning a journey down what is referred to as the "rabit hole" the further down you go the more distressing and disconcerting it becomes as it changes the illusions of reality programmed into you through Government institutions, churches and media.

It's bound to lead to a number of reactions even in the most critical and intelligent of minds, from denial, to depression, to fear, to disassociation.

Yes, by all means don't take anything you hear purely on face value, but ATS has a wealth of information that you can research to either prove or disprove things that you do here on here.

The further down the Rabit Hole you get the more incredible it's going to seem, the more you are likely to want to deny it.

I am right on the money so to speak on this though, and have compiled a tremendous amount of research and sources in my All Roads Lead to Rome thread to prove it.

Thanks!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Dear ProtoplasmicTraveller,

Thanks for the lessons and the leads. I appreciate your work. I'm sure we'll (talk?) again. Also, if you haven't seen it, the apology at the end of my last post was sincere.

reply to post by WeRpeons

...And they'll start whining if they have to pay taxes they won't be able to stay in business, or they'll have massive layoffs.

Just make sure you DON"T KILL THE GOOSE WHO LAID THE GOLDEN EGGS - our jobs.

17% of the labor force is employed by the Federal Government and over 50% of the labor force is employed by small business. This means the combination of State and local government employees, teachers, Fire, Law enforcement AND Large corporations total 33%. Large Corporations are just not as big a factor as many people think mainly because we shipped them overseas.

If you try to up the taxes on business three things happen. They up the price on products and services. This only works to a certain extent because of the law of diminishing returns. In other words there is a certain price that optimizes profit. If the price goes higher you lose customers.

The second place for business to "recoup" the money lost paying taxes is to pay workers less.

The third option, and one that happens frequently is the business closes.

80% of new businesses fail within their first year.... Of these failed business, only 10% of them close involuntarily due to bankruptcy and the remaining 90% close because the business was not successful, did not provide the level of income desired or was too much work for their efforts.... only about half of those who survive the first year will remain in business the next five years.

In 2003, there were approximately 23.7 million businesses in the United States...

IRS estimates the number of sole proprietorships (roughly equivalent to nonemployers) increased 2.4 percent in 2002 and is expected to increase 1.9 percent in 2003. Census data show there were 5.7 million firms with employees and 17.0 million without employees in 2001. Applying the sole proprietorship growth rates to the nonemployer figures and similar Department of Labor growth rates to the employer figures produces the 23.7 million figure. Small firms with less than 500 employees represent 99.7 percent of the 23.7 million businesses. www.moyak.com...

These small business are not making buckets of money unless they are VERY VERY lucky. Otherwise 80% of them would not be closing their doors. Since Clinton ratified the World Trade Organization, the trade pact that cost America 20 percent of its manufacturing jobs in just 14 years, virtually all of the new jobs created were from small business-dominated industries.

With more than one million new businesses each year, America’s economy depends on small businesses for its vitality and growth. According to the 1997 report of the U.S. Census Bureau, the nation’s 17 million small, non-farm businesses constituted 99.7 per cent of all employers, employed 52 percent of private workforce and accounted for 51 percent of the nation’s sales. Small business-dominated industries provided 11.1 million new jobs between 1994 and 1998, virtually all of the new jobs created during that time period. Small businesses are most likely to generate jobs for young workers, older workers and women, provide 67 percent of first jobs and produce 55 percent of innovations... www.dol.gov...

reply to post by HunkaHunka

The other thing is that we need to make enough businesses that we outnumber the giant corporations.

As I have already shown small businesses DO outnumber the giant corporations, they DO provide ALL the new jobs and have done so since the World Trade Organization was ratified.

Where we the people really screwed up is not clobbering our Reps when all the leveraged buyouts and consolidations were going on in the 1980's. The USA has anti-monopoly laws but you would never know it.

Yes I will stand up and defend small business but I HATE the giant multi-national corporations who were behind WTO, NAFTA and a bunch of other equally nasty stuff like Structural Adjustment Programs

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

...Not according to my very detailed posts that delve into some dark and seldom discussed facts regarding corporations, taxation and other things that effect the average person, because people like to just have 'simple' and 'generalized' fear based discussions.

The premise of your position is not only false but ignorant.

Loopholes created through corrupt congressmen and senators enacted at the beheast of corporate lobbyists is what is allowing the majority of corporations to not pay tax....

I very much have a quibble with you on that statement. It is the giant corporations that use the loop holes most Mom & Pops and their accountants do not even know a lot of them exist.

three quarters of all U.S. business firms have no payroll.

There are 25,409,525 firms in the USA.

Only 17,047 have more than 500 employees, only 3,534 have more than 2,500 employees. The big guys with over 10,000 employees number 890.

Remember that number 890.

Of those firms with employees (5,697,759)
1,291,552 have gross receipts of Less than $100 thousand

2,387,780 have gross receipts of $100 to $499 thousand

819,513 have gross receipts between a half to one million.

1,196,967 have gross receipts between one million and a billion.

1,056 have gross receipts between a billion and 2.5 billion.

891 have gross receipts over 2.5 billion.
Stats from: www.census.gov...

So of the 25 million firms in the USA, you really want to go after 2,000.

With liberals if you say business or even worse CORPORATION it is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. Let make sure we are attacking the tigers and not the house cats please. Although I am afraid all the attacks aimed at the tigers get deflected towards the house cats by the time the lobbyists in the District of Criminals get through. No wonder 80% of the small businesses die the first year.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

My point is that taxes on corporations are payed by taxpayers not the corporations themselves. They only collect the money from us. It is just another hidden tax.

You are correct.

How many taxes are there on a loaf of bread? Simple question is it not?

Here are some answers:

One economist 30 years ago, said that a $1.00 loaf of bread had $.95 in taxes. www.gold-eagle.com...

Well, there are 151 taxes now in the price of a loaf of bread — it accounts for more than half the cost of a loaf of bread. www.whatsbestnext.com...

Those many layers of taxes on productive work make up the embedded tax component of the price of bread or any other goods or services we buy. On average, that embedded tax component is 22.4 percent of the price of everything we buy, from a loaf of bread to brain surgery. www.roanoke.com...

Unfortunately the taxes are so well hidden we can not really tell the actual amount of tax we pay on anything!

reply to post by charles1952

Are you saying that the Vatican has announced "The world thinks there is x amount of gold, but we have more than that ourselves?" Further, how can you know Ft. Knox is empty?

First Largest Private Refinery Discovers Gold-Plated Tungsten Bar from unidentified bank

Second Chris Weber went through the records.

I say "documented history" because when writing the book, I was very careful to only include official documents and private correspondence from the US government, stretching from 1934 to 1987. Using their own responses to the questions of just how much gold is left, and what that gold's quality is, for the first time this book put all these governmental attempts to answer the questions about their own gold policies in one place. What their responses revealed was shocking to me.

In 1934, gold was confiscated from US citizens, melted from coins into bars,and stored at Ft Knox, Kentucky.

In 1949, 69.9% of all the gold in the world was in Ft Knox.

In 1972, at least 75% of official US gold left the nation in exchange for paper dollars.

...Saxbe moved quickly to try to placate Durell, and barely six weeks later, on September 23, 1974 Mary Brooks, the Director of the US Mint, led six Congressmen and one Senator on a tour of Ft Knox. It was the first time since Franklin Roosevelt visited on April 28, 1943 that anyone except Mint and Treasury officials had been allowed inside of Ft Knox. Too my knowledge, no outsider has been inside ever since.

It was not an audit or inventory of the gold supply; but simply a tour... While it seemed to placate the few elected representatives at the time, upon reflection several of them publicly pronounced themselves unsatisfied.

The only audit that has ever been done of the gold inside Ft Knox was done days after Dwight Eisenhower became President in January of 1953.... The central problem was that it wasn't much of an audit....

Some of the new bars had the copper removed: these were good delivery bars that went out the gold window before 1971.

But much of what was left, as seen in the one compartment opened in Ft Knox, were quite obviously of bad quality. They were the dregs of what had been the greatest accumulation of gold that had ever been seen.

less than 10% of the 264 million ounce held by the Treasury could be considered good delivery gold.

www.lewrockwell.com...

reply to post by apacheman

The taxes a corporation pays shouldn't be passed on the the consumer/worker, any more than a worker can charge an employer for the taxes they pay. Those taxes should come from the corporate profits before the dividends are paid out, not tacked onto the price of product so the someone else pays them.

Bottom line - Taxes are STILL a part of the cost of doing business. If the business does not make a profit it is gone. If it can not make ENOUGH profit, it is gone.

When a business hires a worker it considers the company's part of Social Security, Medicare, workman's comp, medical insurance, life insurance, paid leave ... as part of the "pay package" because if that worker is cut those expenses would not be paid.

Taxes are just another part of the overhead like buildings, electric, equipment, labor.... And are treated as such. If the overhead is too high a business either moves or folds.

reply to post by crimvelvet
Exactly, I don't understand how people cannot understand these simple facts. Companies have to take in money by selling a product or service. They must then cover all expense including taxes or they go out of business. This is a simple concept, why is it so hard to grasp?
Moreover, what person or group is going to go through all the trouble of starting a business just to "cover expense"? How would that make any sense at all? So, after ALL EXPENSES, they must turn a profit. If they do not, then the business owner will just fold and go to work for someone else.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Some great information there on Ft. Knox.

I often feel bad for new members of the site as they start finding out about some of these things more in depth.

People take much for granted.

Personally I feel it suspect with huge tracts of lands, all kinds of real estate to lease and rent, and vast natural resources why our government can't seem to turn a profit.

It can't even live within a budget between those resources and the taxes the average citizen pays to it, it still borrows heavily.

Clearly it's an unsustainable enterprise, and as corporate flight removes more and more Americans from the employment rolls, and one industry after another moves overseas for cheap labor, I don't know how the government ever sees itself working out of the debt it's created.

It's a big problem and while I am no fan of Huckabee I liked his flat over the counter tax, as being the only tax, and doing away with the IRS and the complicated tax codes, because all tax would be collected through over the counter purchases.

I think it's the sensible plan based on the fact that black market off the books enterprises keep growing, people conducting business or working in the black market pay no federal taxes. Drug dealers, loan sharks, back room gamblers, prostitutes, con men, theives, etc, as well as those people who work at more honest off the books black market enterprises like those selling roses or water at the side of the road, working as handy men, land scapers,off the books illegal aliens etc.

If our stupid government really can't manage itself, we should pass a law that says, if you spend all your money on military and 1,000 toilet seats you can't borrow more, and if you have to shut down the government 3 months out of a year, well the people inconveinenced by that will stop voting in wasteful politicians.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by crimvelvet

 

Exactly, I don't understand how people cannot understand these simple facts. Companies have to take in money by selling a product or service. They must then cover all expense including taxes or they go out of business. This is a simple concept, why is it so hard to grasp?
Moreover, what person or group is going to go through all the trouble of starting a business just to "cover expense"? How would that make any sense at all? So, after ALL EXPENSES, they must turn a profit. If they do not, then the business owner will just fold and go to work for someone else.

It's a mistake to equate small Doing Business As Propriortorships, Paternships and small Corporations that employ few people with big Corporations.

Is Exxon Mobil going to go out of business if it stops recieving tax credits, pays no taxes, and get's government substidies?

No it's not.

We aren't talking about the small realator or sandwhich shop that incorporates so they don't have to pay self employment tax, and make very little retainable profit after salaries are made.

But the huge corporations who post quarterly earnings in the billions of dollars, some of which are deemed "To big to fail" and not only pay no taxes, but fleece the tax payers.

As a person in business for himself, I can appreciate the concerns of small business people.

When you have 100 employees or less in one or two locations that's one thing.

When you have a 100,000 employees or more in thousands of locations that's another thing.

Small businesses who don't turn much of a profit, pay no real tax and THAT'S OK, they really MADE NO MONEY, large corporations who are posting HUGE and RECORD PROFITS though are using LOOPHOLES to not pay taxes and THAT'S NOT OK.

reply to post by inkyminds


Good example, my point exactly! These brainwashed hard working people will just keep on fighting the arguments for corporate America. You would think there's been enough corporate scandals in the last decade, and the most recent bail outs by our government, people would start seeing the light.

...I guess some people will always be in the dark.

reply to post by sonofliberty1776

...Moreover, what person or group is going to go through all the trouble of starting a business just to "cover expense"? How would that make any sense at all? So, after ALL EXPENSES, they must turn a profit. If they do not, then the business owner will just fold and go to work for someone else.

Exactly.

That is what one study I posted showed.

80% of new businesses fold and 90% of those that fold go out of business because it is too much of a pain in the rump for the amount of money they make, not because they bankrupted.

Most of the Libs can not wrap their minds around the fact that 95% of the businesses in the USA and the rest of the world are small businesses. I doubt there are more than a few thousand multi-national mega corporations around and they are immune to any changes in the tax laws.

Heck I worked for a foreign company. My plant never ever made a DIME. The accountants played all sorts of games so the actual profits showed up in the foreign country where the tax bite was less.

The Mom & Pa businesses do not have that type of option.

Originally posted by WeRpeons
reply to post by inkyminds

 

Good example, my point exactly! These brainwashed hard working people will just keep on fighting the arguments for corporate America. You would think there's been enough corporate scandals in the last decade, and the most recent bail outs by our government, people would start seeing the light.

...I guess some people will always be in the dark.

It's sad too, not only will people defend their Masters lies, and the very systems and constructs that end up enslaving them, but they will actually fight and die for them too.

Military spending exceeds that on Social Services, Health, Education and Welfare combined here in the U.S. by nearly twice the amount.

The interest on past military expeditions and purchases is almost as large as what is spent on social services, health, education and welfare.

With few exceptions most of these military activities are all about securing resources and markets for the corporations.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Feels like revolution is in the air. I like the smell of it.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Personally I feel it suspect with huge tracts of lands, all kinds of real estate to lease and rent, and vast natural resources why our government can't seem to turn a profit.

Proto, the reason for that was explained quite nicely by G. Edward Griffin.

Congress needs more money than that.... The Fed has been waiting for them, that's one of the reasons it was created.... he writes a check to the US Treasury for one billion dollars or whatever the amount is that they need. He signs the check and gives it to the treasury official.

We need to stop here for a minute and ask a question. Where did they get a billion dollars to give to the treasury? who put that money into the account at the Federal Reserve System? The amazing answer is there is no money in the account at the Federal Reserve System. In fact, technically, there isn't even an account, there is only a checkbook. That's all. That billion dollars springs into being at precisely the instant the officer signs that check and that is called "monetizing the debt," that's the phrase they throw at you. That means they just wrote a check, a big rubber check.... www.bigeye.com...

So what is the amount of "Magic fiat fairy dust" that the Fed has created? About 6.4 TRILLION dollars upon which the people of the USA pay interest to the PRIVATE bankers who own the Fed.

Now do you see why the Banksters are SOCIALISTS. Every single social program that the naive socialists dreams up and get the US government to implement cost money. And the government "BORROWS" that money from the BANKSTERS and they get to collect interest (real wealth) on all the funny money they lend the government.

Edit to add:

That is also why the Banksters keep on using Americans as Cannon fodder. No one wins a war except the bankers who loan money to BOTH sides. Wars are VERY expensive and would not be fought if bankers did not lend fiat currency to "pay" for them.

If you have any doubts that the US government would allow its own people to be killed to justify going to war, here are the historical facts showing that they have done so beforeseveral times. Days of Infamy and The War on Terrorism

I show how the US government is setting us up for another "Pearl Harbor" in Napolitano sets stage for False Flag Terrorist Attack