Why abortion is legal - why it is not wrong, murder or genocide.

Originally posted by Gorman91

 

Logic allows you to remove all things so you can enjoy those emotions clear of subjective BS in the way of it. It allows you to have an objective source for your subjectives. It allows for simple answers.

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
--H.L. Mencken.

What you interpret as lack of subjective BS is actually lack of the information necessary in order to understand the problem.

reply to post by kinda kurious


Nope. logic is the only thing that matters. Not emotion, nor the human experience. And while religious now, this type of thinking comes from when I was an atheist. And continues to govern my view of the world. In actuality, my religion tells me that everyone should do what they want and let the rest do as they want. Preach that they are wrong but you have no right to force them to do anything. But this inevitably asks the secular question of where the line is? One cannot draw the line with morals, for it is a temporal and nonstandard measurement. It is not constant. One cannot draw some "worthiness" line, because all humans are worthless scum slowly killing themselves and the planet that they came from. It is true that the entire universe would be better if we all just died. Thus the only line to draw between complete anarchy and a say to govern some sort of defense is via the rights of man and the fact that a species is important to itself alone primarily.

Failure to "lock on" to any weakness in this view point is quite obvious why. It streams from a life long question I have pondered, and the only solution is in fact a black and white world based off cold soulless logic. To hell with the pitiful mess that is man and his emotions. The universe as governed quite well on a set of rules thus far and there's no reason that the presence of our free will should get in the way of continuing it. It has, after all, lead directly to our evolution.

reply to post by Kailassa


You say this, but not what information I lack. And therefore I beg to question the validity of your claim.

reply to post by Kailassa


Yea no thanks. I've had conversations with people like you before, telling me that because I will never experience something like that, I can never know. It often ends the same way. Saying that I could not possibly be human. That I have this mental condition or that one. Nope. I actually have very few rules. I rarely follow my own. I'm a crappy Christian and fail to live up to that standard, let alone a very lax person whom all to often will not follow my own rigid set of logic, often falling into emotion, and then a day later realizing the far more logical solution that was not based off shoddy emotional intellect.

The fact is all things are understandable and comprehendable, weather or not you have experienced them or not. I've seen enough to know that in few years of existence. I've walked people out of situations before that I've never experienced. Because I knew the logical way out.

In fact, it is not a condition. It is a growing generational trend. Look at CNN, as they report this generation of children is significantly lacking in empathy than their compatriots decades earlier. I've also heard the term "generation meh". It's in fact what I've been raised to view the world as. It's in fact how all my closest friends try to view the world as. You have personal beliefs which govern yourself, and then logical understanding, which exist outside your personal beliefs and govern the world around you.

So yea. Glad your children came out great. But I'm just pointing it out here. They turned out great, dispite all the problems. Thus if they had the potential to turn out that way, there really is no proof that abortion should be allowed for those not raped or about to die. As th enviornment, as you have showed, clearly does not demand a certain result.

See I don't think you realize just how cold and objective this logic of mine is. I hate gays. I'll admit it. I hate their culture, and what they do. But there is no logical basis for this hatred of gays. Thus it has no place and must be terminated as a thought. It must be completely eliminated as anything more than a disagreement of lifestyle. I also hate Atheists. I think most of them are illogical closed minded individuals. But again. There is no logical defense for this hate. It must be purged and it's processes eliminated from my mind. The same goes for The buffoonery that is so many pagan and Wicans. It's laughable what they believe and the sheer idiocracy burns my skin when I meet them. But the same goes for that. It's illogical. It's purely not welcomed in my mind. And so must be purged.

Thus you see. I have a set of beliefs. And they do their dandy little thing. And then I have logic, which in many cases run in complete opposition to what I believe. But it doesn't matter. personal beliefs are not to be used to govern opinions of others. Only logic.

So yes, I am judgemental of you. I judge you unfit and illogical. And I hate you for that. But I have no right to do anything to you nor prevent you from doing anything up to the ending of another's life liberty or persuit of happiness.

That's logic. That's liberal. That's the modern way. That's my generation's way. So make up your conditions for us and call us wrong. This is the line of thought fronting my generation as it grows up. And it will be the way the world works when we are in power.

reply to post by Gorman91


I actually do find some truth and common ground in that last post. And I commend you for your acceptance of your GOD whatever you perceive him to be. Your are obviously far more intelligent than I and I humbly concede to that. But in all due respect I've found you sometimes vascilate on your position depending on the argument or premise to suit your position regarding abortion as shown here where you cite NUMEROUS references to GOD in other threads which I had sensed lurking under all the touting of logic:

Originally posted by Gorman91
… All I know is that God's will is everything….From a purely scientific perspective, if God exists outside of time, than everything is his will, but we still have free will.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Gorman91
You assume the leaders would be united. Call it faith in God's irony if you will, one always falls short of being a total dick and ends up falling in love with some slave girl or finding pity somehow….Remember. Moses fell from the dictators. There was no one for the people. No hope. …

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Gorman91
I don't have any proof that My God isn't an alien because I don't have any proof that my God exists

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Gorman91
...Something started way back in January where suddenly I could resist temptation. But seeing as those temptations were Christian-based no-nos...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Gorman91
....yes, I would argue I saw God. And I saw nothing. No form. No anything. At most, a light that "wasn't really light" to put it simply....Jesus is not a human hybrid. He is not two halves. He is fully human, and has the soul of God, fully God. ...Your gods are no different than man. Mine is. My God doesn't want anything but to love him. My God doesn't follow human logic. My God is not stuck in human comprehensible terms. My God is not dependent on humanity, nor is his thoughts and desires like man's

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Each to his own and I don't fault you for it, heck it is even in your Avatar. In this very thread you leaned on logic to make your case but as I suspected their exists a religious bent lurking just below the surface. In all fairness you just stated that although you reserve your right to be "preachy" you draw the line at forcing someone to do something against their will and I salute you for that.

I don't pretend to have all the answers or wisdom that you do which is why I'm here to learn from others like yourself. I only jumped into the fray when I witnessed you belittle others who disagreed. As late, great Grand Mammy Kurious used to say: "It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice."

In short, lighten up. (or enlighten up) - That's all I got.

reply to post by kinda kurious


As I just stated above, there is a difference to what is clearly observably true, and what I believe. And I keep my beliefs to myself, and they have no place in a debate on abortion. My religious beliefs do NOT coincide to what I preach here in terms of logic. And I am not ashamed to speak of that as true. My religion is not logical. There is no proof of God. But I will defend God in topics about God. I will not speak of God in topics unrelated to God.

My religion calls me to preach about Christ. But this is a debate of what is true or not biological, not a place for preaching about God. There will come a time to each. Comparing scientific basis of truth or not is not the place to be preaching about Jesus.

Has anyone refuted the fact that biologically, human life begins at conception???


I love all the dancing around, bringing up other issues, and avoidance of the question...it is quite entertaining.

But I would really like for anyone to try to refute this

reply to post by Maslo


Person is an invention. The need for elitists to say what is human or not. Personhood was used by slavers, nationalists, and so many others.

If you have the genes to be human, you are a person.

reply to post by MindSpin


That's why personhood was invented. To lie to themselves that certain groups aren't human.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by MindSpin

 

That's why personhood was invented. To lie to themselves that certain groups aren't human.

I agree...and I have yet to see any of them provide a solid argument as to why determining some are human and some are not human is logical.

In fact, most of them outright deny they are doing this, because they know how bad that makes them look.

So instead they try to pass it off as if the fetus is something else other than human...it is a clump of cells...a parasite...a growth. It is so hard for them to admit the biological fact that it is in fact a human.

reply to post by MindSpin


It is all those things. But it's still human. And I fail to see how that makes it less human, considering humans are a clump of cells parasiting off others well into their childhood.

I discount all of your arguments with just one reason. If you are drunk driving and kill a pregnant woman and her unborn fetus, then you will be charged with 2 counts of motor vehicle homocide.

Common sense.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Kailassa

 

So yes, I am judgemental of you. I judge you unfit and illogical. And I hate you for that.

. . . .
This is the line of thought fronting my generation as it grows up. And it will be the way the world works when we are in power.

My original post to you in this thread was made in a spirit of respect and friendliness, yet in reply you expressed hatred toward me, telling me I was unfit and my children should be taken from me.

You apparently hate women who have elective abortions.

You hate women who don't have abortions if they are not perfect mothers for every moment of their lives.

You hate gays.

How many other groups do you hate, Gorman?

You claim to be logical, and without emotion. I hate to break it to you, but hate is illogical. Hate is the dumbest emotion of all and you are revelling in it like a pig in a mudhole.

This attitude of hate is not Christian, Gorman, despite your claims to be one. Jesus taught love; you live by hate. Your posts reveal a sad little sicko, bitterly judging others who have achieved things he could never hope to achieve.

There is little mention of brass tax in this thread so i will add some. In the USA, there are almost 600,000 abortions every year. There are numerous reasons that a woman CHOOSES to get an abortion, but none of those are really relevant for this discussion.
What would happen if it were illegal? With an infant mortality rate of 6.8 per 1000 live births, that would leave 595,920 more babies born every year. With a us poverty rate of 13% to 17% that would mean between 77,000 to over 100,000 additional children born below the poverty line every year. Assuming that every parent who could afford it would raise a child, and we go for minimum poverty levels, that would mean 77,495 babies born every year to parents who couldn't afford it. Now, parents who cannot afford to raise their kids have four choices.
1: Give the kid up for adoption
2: let their children starve to or not take care of basic medical needs. Both can often lead to complicated conditions later on in life that cost even more money to treat.
3: Get some form of govt. assistance
4: Commit crimes, such as drug dealing, prostitution, or theft
This is real, not a moral argument
The first , while it sounds good, is not. There are over 120,000 unadopted kids in the US right now with an additional 600,000 is child services ie, with parents who CANNOT take care of them.
The second is horrible. Nobody wants to see a child starve, except maybe a Nazi. Having to choose between food and medical care is nothing but desperation.
The third is what a lot of people do. Welfare, food stamps, emergency rooms and low income clinics.
The Fourth, well, poverty and crime are like chocolate and peanut butter, white and rice, stink and sh!t, "Moral" politics and personal infidelity and ATS and racism/antisemitism
What all of these things have in common is money. I'm not sure how other nations do this but this is how it works in America .
The first, state governments provide $30,000 per child in the CPS. Add up the unadopted and cps kids and multiply that by 30,000 and you get $21,600,000,000. That is billions of TAX dollars. thats not counting the aborted kids either.
The second, when people are too poor to buy medical care, they go the the ER for treatment. When they fail to pay, the cost is passed on to those who are insured or the taxpayers.
The third, well, who funds the government, the individual taxpayers as most large corporations use loopholes to not pay any taxes
The fourth, even if the cost of the crimes directly is not factored in, the cost of policing, prosecution, defending and incarcerating those who commit said crimes is huge, and is paid for by taxpayers like me.

Kids cost money, and in the USA when those who can't or won't take care of the kids, the taxpayers do, often with horrible results, from abuse, to fraud, not to mention kids who grow up never knowing thew love of a parent.
So, if a woman knows she can not or will not raise a child properly, having the option to terminate the pregnancy is a good thing, for her, other children, the taxpayers and the nation as a whole and that is why abortion needs to be and should be legal.
thanks for reading.
J


PS. isn't it ironic that conservative politicians, that speak of eliminating social services of all kinds, who have a "moral" argument against abortion never seem to have a plan to pay for all the additional kids that would be born if it were illegal?

reply to post by Kailassa


Perhaps It is impossible for you to understand that one can have hate, and ignore this emotion? Perhaps you should reread what I Wrote.

Also you're making a biased statement. Sure I hate women who have abortions. But I hate the man who does not try to go against that. I hate men whom make women who don't want to have abortions get one. I hate bad fathers just as much as I hate bad mothers.

It's safe to say I hate humanity in general, and that I hate myself for falling into the same things that I hate humanity for.

In fact, it is quite Christian to hate things. What makes you unchristian is to act on those emotions. To judge them. Only God can judge what he hates. And yes I will admit fault in that I do quite often judge. I never claimed to be perfect, and I am fully aware of my own shortcomings.

Like I said. There is a difference between what I believe and thing, and how I act and how I perceive. One can hate gays, and perceive nothing wrong with them. Indeed, I hate gays, but logically speaking, there is nothing wrong with them. in fact, they are indifferent to anyone else. Why do I hate them then? They are gross. Do I act on this? No. by best friend from highschool is bisexual. I tell him I hate him inside for it, but I will not act against him on that hate. We have a very healthy friendship and talk all the time. I do not act on the hatred I have for what he does.

hate is illogical. This is why I try not to act on those emotions.

But go ahead and ignore this statement of division as well. Clearly if I feel it, I am acting on it, right? How flawed you are too.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Kailassa

 

... Sure I hate women who have abortions. But I hate the man who does not try to go against that. I hate men whom make women who don't want to have abortions get one. I hate bad fathers just as much as I hate bad mothers.

It's safe to say I hate humanity in general, and that I hate myself for falling into the same things that I hate humanity for.

And you also admit to hating Gays, Pagans, heathen, atheists ...

No. by best friend from highschool is bisexual. I tell him I hate him inside for it, but I will not act against him on that hate. We have a very healthy friendship and talk all the time. I do not act on the hatred I have for what he does.

How noble of you to not act on the hatred you have for your friend ...
I hope he has since found friends who don't hate him.

In fact, it is quite Christian to hate things.

People are not things.
Hating people is not Christian.

Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

Romans 12:10
[Be] kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

Philippians 2:3
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

1 John 4:21
And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

Romans 13:8
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

Romans 13:10
Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:14
The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Ephesians 5:2
and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

What makes you unchristian is to act on those emotions.

No, that was the old way. Christians are held to a higher standard and expected to purify their thoughts as well as their actions. Jesus taught that thinking an evil thought was similar to committing the deed.

Matthew 5:21-22
“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’
“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:27-28
“You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

reply to post by JohnWorfin

Well put.

There is not exactly a shortage of people in this world, and neither is there an excess of money available to support unwanted children.

Women who want to abort should be able to do so cheaply, easily and early.

Many abortions are because conception has occurred before the woman is in a position to care for it, or after the woman has had all the children she can properly care for.
Allowing abortions means the children a mother has are likely to be better off, and therefore have a better start in life, than they would be if the woman had more children.

reply to post by Kailassa


This is why we have "hate the sin not the person." But I fail to live up to that sometimes. My mother hated me when I destroyed TVs and took apart stuff, but she still loved me other times. Perhaps this is what it means to be a good parent? But I wouldn't call my parents good parents, so maybe you are all the better.

People are things, but things are not necessarily people. A thing is just some mass.

Thanks for the bible versus. But I knew them already. As I've told you. I am not perfect. I hate. When I choose not to act on that hate, and instead show love, I am being Christian. That's what being Christian is all about. Knowing you cannot live up to that standard, but at the very least, you can act it, and eventually that acting becomes your very truth. But we can never be perfect. And that's where Jesus comes in. He knows you can never reach that standard, so he'll fill in the blank.

But this, in and of itself, is off topic. As faith and religion have no place in abortion topics.

reply to post by Kailassa


I remember being in taught in Sunday school/sermons/mom that thinking about the sin was just as bad as committing it.

reply to post by Gorman91

If you have the genes to be human, you are a person.

That is not true, there are plenty of humans that lack personhood, and I do not think they should be protected just because of their genes.

That's why personhood was invented. To lie to themselves that certain groups aren't human.

That is a strawman. They obviously are human, nobody is denying that. But they are just human life, not human persons, and that is not enough to be protected by law, IMHO. The notion that we should protect a bunch of human cells without developed brain is as absurd to me as the notion that we should protect the vegetable I have just eaten for breakfast.

Specieism is just another form of racism, and whether we like it or not, true morality does not care about such irrelevant things as the genome of an entity.