Yikes! The Uterus Police!

Originally posted by SevenBeans

Like I've said a million times already, I would only punish the most blatant, obvious, willful abuse and neglect.
Getting falling down drunk while pregnant qualifies I think. Do you think it should be perfectly legal for a pregnant woman to get drunk everyday?

No one is forced to stay in a place where someone is smoking all the time (except children of course). If a pregnant woman chooses to hang out in smoke filled rooms that is on her, no one is forcing her to. Having said that, a husband who insists on smoking inside with a pregnant wife is obviously an azz.

So are you now advocating only punishment for women who drink? Because there are many causes, potential causes, and unknown causes in terms of miscarriage and still birth. Yes he is obviously an ass, however he is causing willing, potentially intentional harm to the fetus, and by the standards used thus far neglect and abuse. But I asked if you would prosecute him, as his actions is effecting the child.

No, for the millionth time I do not find it acceptable for a woman to be falling down drunk. I would leave that to the doctor to find a remedy for, however. If she is falling down drunk everyday, she is clearly an alcoholic and was one before she became pregnant. The withdrawl symptoms can be as dangerous to the fetus, and if stopped cold turkey the shock and stress to the woman's body is sometimes enough to cause her to miscarry, even though she is trying to do the right thing. This situation is best handled by a rehab center with experience in getting a pregnant addict clean.

Edit to add: A married woman can not move out of the house to avoid the smoke, so leaving the smoky area really isn't an option, and leaving the room does not stop the consequences.

Originally posted by searching4truth
So are you now advocating only punishment for women who drink? Because there are many causes, potential causes, and unknown causes in terms of miscarriage and still birth. Yes he is obviously an ass, however he is causing willing, potentially intentional harm to the fetus, and by the standards used thus far neglect and abuse. But I asked if you would prosecute him, as his actions is effecting the child.

A pregnant woman who gets drunk everyday is one example of what I mean when I say willful neglect and abuse.

When a pregnant woman exposes her unborn by smoking or drinking there is no action that anyone can take to mitigate that exposure. If I'm smoking in an enclosed space and a pregnant women chooses to come in or stay in that environment, how can you punish me for that? It's not like I can force her to leave (unless she's trespassing or something)... I can put my cigarette out but the room is still full of smoke.

She can choose to expose her unborn to that or not.

Originally posted by searching4truth
Edit to add: A married woman can not move out of the house to avoid the smoke, so leaving the smoky area really isn't an option, and leaving the room does not stop the consequences.

edit on 24-2-2011 by searching4truth because: (no reason given)

Maybe not easily but saying that she can't is obviously absurd.

I'd be willing to say this... smoking inside a child's residence should be illegal, smoking while pregnant should be illegal, smoking inside the residence of a pregnant woman should be illegal... I have no problem with any of that, do you?

Originally posted by searching4truth
No, for the millionth time I do not find it acceptable for a woman to be falling down drunk. I would leave that to the doctor to find a remedy for, however.

So, if her irresponsible behavior results in a baby being born with brain damage and suffering it's entire life with those injuries your response is... let a doctor find a remedy and no legal consequence for the irresponsible mother?

reply to post by SevenBeans

Not knowing you're pregnant is a lame excuse.

[color=lightslateblue]Really?

What about the (roughly) 2 weeks between ovulation and missed menstruation? Unless you get a perfectly timed blood test in between, you are not going to know. Women that are not trying to conceive, might not even think too much about their period being only a few days late. Its very easy to miss it if you are not looking for it.

In some cases the woman might be late and take a pregnancy test, but the hormone levels might not be high enough to register a positive reading. She might see the negative and not realize she is in fact pregnant until she misses the next period.

Some women have incredibly erratic cycles and may have no idea when to expect their period. They might only have one two or three time per year. They could be under the assumption that they cannot get pregnant based on this. In this case it could take way longer than average to even realize anything is up.

What about women that are on birth control? Every form of contraceptive has a failure rate, even tubal ligation has one. If one is on birth control, getting pregnant is not on the forefront of their mind which could cause them to find out later than one might expect.

There is period of time that a woman cannot and will not know she is pregnant. The time period varies.

There are far too many gray areas to police it.

Is everything really so black and white to you? Or am I imagining it?

Originally posted by daryllyn

What about the (roughly) 2 weeks between ovulation and missed menstruation? Unless you get a perfectly timed blood test in between, you are not going to know. Women that are not trying to conceive, might not even think too much about their period being only a few days late. Its very easy to miss it if you are not looking for it.

You know those commercials for prescription drugs, many of them say "if you're pregnant or may become pregnant do not take..." It's your responsibility to consider these things, don't be so juvenile.

I already said I'd only favor punishing these irresponsible behaviors a reasonable time into pregnancy, not immediately, it's still a lame excuse though.

reply to post by SevenBeans


[color=lightslateblue]Nice.

You have clearly showed time and time again (on this thread and the child support thread) that you are unwilling to consider a position that is not part of your own jaded logic.

Everything is black or white, you will find an analogy for everything and then you will pick a phrase and say it over and over. "Blatant, obvious, willful negligence."

And this little gem from the thread where I first had the pleasure of debating with you, "Only the unilateral choice of a woman can create a child." on the unconstitutional child support enforcement thread.

You are impossible.

I will not debate this issue any further with you. Its a gigantic waste of my time.

Originally posted by daryllyn

Everything is black or white, you will find an analogy for everything and then you will pick a phrase and say it over and over. "Blatant, obvious, willful negligence."

I would only punish pregnant people for that kind of negligence, not accidental genetic issues etc. etc. etc.

I repeat it because you and others keep trying to pretend that my position is that I would punish every little thing that could possibly result in a miscarraige or brain damage etc. etc.

Originally posted by daryllyn
And this little gem from the thread where I first had the pleasure of debating with you, "Only the unilateral choice of a woman can create a child." on the unconstitutional child support enforcement thread.

What about it? Derisively calling something a "little gem" isn't much of an argument.

It's true that only the unilateral choice of a woman can create a child (according to law), thats how you want it isn't it?

Don't get irritated with me for pointing out the obvious.

reply to post by SevenBeans


Just a side note there's a show on TLC called "I didn't know I was pregnant" it's on a few times a week some people should check it out, it case you don't know how it happens.

reply to post by SevenBeans


That's not true, there are consequences when a child is born from a drug addict or with fetal alcohol syndrome human services is notified immediately, once the health problems are dealt with (if present) the child is usually put in foster care or given to relatives.

The mother is then usually sent to some sort of rehab, because jail does not cure an addict (that is largely the decision of the court, they can throw her in jail, however usually the courts side for rehab).

Originally posted by searching4truth
Just a side note there's a show on TLC called "I didn't know I was pregnant" it's on a few times a week some people should check it out, it case you don't know how it happens.

Irrelevent, it's your responsibility to know.

"Sorry I got drunk all the time and caused you brain damage little guy, I didn't know I was pregnant! It's not my fault!"

Originally posted by searching4truth
reply to post by SevenBeans

 

Just a side note there's a show on TLC called "I didn't know I was pregnant" it's on a few times a week some people should check it out, it case you don't know how it happens.

My daughter did not know she was pregnant until 5 months. She chose to keep her baby - - almost lost him - - had to have an emergency cervical cerclage. He came at 7 months - - he weighted 3 pounds.

We tease her about her 2 month pregnancy.

Originally posted by searching4truth
That's not true, there are consequences when a child is born from a drug addict or with fetal alcohol syndrome human services is notified immediately, once the health problems are dealt with (if present) the child is usually put in foster care or given to relatives.

The mother is then usually sent to some sort of rehab, because jail does not cure an addict (that is largely the decision of the court, they can throw her in jail, however usually the courts side for rehab).

Look, when an alcoholic kills or maims someone because they drive drunk we don't just pat them on the back and send them to rehab. They serve hard time. Don't give me the "it's a sickness spiel, so they shouldn't be punished."

A pregnant woman who is willfully abusive/neglectful of her unborn should be given a choice - get an abortion or be held in a minimum security faciltiy until your baby is born so that responsible people can prevent your abuse and neglect.

Originally posted by Annee
My daughter did not know she was pregnant until 5 months. She chose to keep her baby - - almost lost him - - had to have an emergency cervical cerclage. He came at 7 months - - he weighted 3 pounds.

We tease her about her 2 month pregnancy.

She sounds very irresponsible. I hope the baby is healthy.

reply to post by SevenBeans


Well, what about the case of antipsychotics? These drugs are seriously dangerous for a fetus, in many cases taking the mother off them has a more clear and present danger to the life of the same fetus.

Things aren't as clear as you would like to make them out to be. A woman who drinks herself stupid everyday of her pregnancy will have consequences, those consequences are not acceptable to you. From what I gather, you would like for her wind up in jail, however in most cases the court system does not agree with you, as with any addict rehab is the preferred method of dealing with it, with the hope of not only correcting the problem but allowing her to be involved and present for the child's life. It doesn't always work, I admit that, there are many kids in foster care whose parents are chronic addicts and end up spending their lives in the system. However, it is what it is and until a cure all remedy for addiction can be found it is what we have.

Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by searching4truth
Just a side note there's a show on TLC called "I didn't know I was pregnant" it's on a few times a week some people should check it out, it case you don't know how it happens.

Irrelevent, it's your responsibility to know.

"Sorry I got drunk all the time and caused you brain damage little guy, I didn't know I was pregnant! It's not my fault!"

So......are suggesting that a woman needs to take a pregnancy test every month to ensure she is not pregnant? What about false positives or false negatives? Really now, I think you just do not understand how these things work, what are 12 most of the things discussed on this board are covered in basic health classes beginning in middle high school.

I am in no way a genetist or ob, however I have been and known enough pregnant women to know that these cases occur and fairly frequently. In a text book situation a woman doesn't "know' she is preggo until nearly the second month and doctors do not even do an ultrasound, let alone any other serious tests until she is further along because so many are lost within the first three months, to non alcoholic, non smokers, non drug users, that's just nature.

Originally posted by searching4truth
Things aren't as clear as you would like to make them out to be. A woman who drinks herself stupid everyday of her pregnancy will have consequences, those consequences are not acceptable to you. From what I gather, you would like for her wind up in jail, however in most cases the court system does not agree with you, as with any addict rehab is the preferred method of dealing with it

That's BS if you drive drunk and kill someone (or even if you don't harm anyone but drive drunk repetitively) you go to jail, it doesn't matter that you're an alcoholic.

As for people who depend on anti-psychotic medications I admit that is tough situation, if the meds have a good chance of inflicting brain damage etc. etc on the unborn, I just don't know. What do you think?

I think a doctor would probably have to explain the risks of continuing the meds verse stopping them, in either case that wouldn't fall into the kind willful irresponsibility that I'm talking about.

Originally posted by SevenBeans

Look, when an alcoholic kills or maims someone because they drive drunk we don't just pat them on the back and send them to rehab. They serve hard time. Don't give me the "it's a sickness spiel, so they shouldn't be punished."

A pregnant woman who is willfully abusive/neglectful of her unborn should be given a choice - get an abortion or be held in a minimum security faciltiy until your baby is born so that responsible people can prevent your abuse and neglect.

edit on 24-2-2011 by SevenBeans because: (no reason given)

Again, not true, it depends on the circumstances. A first or even second time drunk driver will get rehab, or one of the little boxes on the car so they can't drive drug (if no one was injured). A person serves jail time for injuring another party, in the cases where there was no injured party the drunk usually doesn't jail until their third offense, at least in my state.

Originally posted by searching4truth
So......are suggesting that a woman needs to take a pregnancy test every month to ensure she is not pregnant? What about false positives or false negatives? Really now, I think you just do not understand how these things work, what are 12 most of the things discussed on this board are covered in basic health classes beginning in middle high school.

"Sorry that I got drunk all the time and caused you brain damage little guy, I didn't know I was pregnant so it's not my fault!"

I understand how these things work. I also understand the difference between responsible behavior and reckless irresponsible behavior.

If you might be pregnant don't get drunk.

Originally posted by searching4truth
Again, not true, it depends on the circumstances. A first or even second time drunk driver will get rehab, or one of the little boxes on the car so they can't drive drug (if no one was injured). A person serves jail time for injuring another party, in the cases where there was no injured party the drunk usually doesn't jail until their third offense, at least in my state.

Nothing I said is untrue and nothing that you wrote contradicts anything that I said...

Correct, after getting caught driving drunk three times you go to jail.

How many times does a pregnant woman have to get drunk before you think she should be punished (or at least placed in a minimum security facility so that people can prevent her abusive/irresponsible behavior)? Or do you think she should never be punished? Or do you only think she should be punished if her drinking results in a brain damaged child?

reply to post by SevenBeans


Being that the rate of FAS is about .2 to 1.5 in 1000 births I seriously doubt that there are as many pregnant woman walking around trashed, as you have been implying.

It is also not realistic to make all sexual active post puberty women to take a pregnancy every month before taking herself off of bed rest, you know in case she may be pregnant. The most modern tests still will not tell you that you may be preggo until you miss you second period, which means that even if they took a test during month one in all likelihood it will give her a false negative. Many tests taken the second month give a false positive in that the embryo never implanted and a chemical pregnancy occurred.

So, the only remedy to ensure that all babies have the best chance of implanting and being delivered is that all women should always stay on bed rest, never drink, never smoke, never eat soft cheese, don't eat tuna, and don't lift anything heavier than 5 pounds. In essence always act as if you are pregnant, ridiculous.