Wisconsin shows rest of country the real union thuggery going on in this country

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Blackmarketeer are you for real? The state was set to have a budget surplus? That's like me checking the balance in my checking account and saying, "Look! I have a surplus!" Of course none of the bills have been paid, but it says right there, I have a surplus! Also, the state does not have a 137 million dollar deficit. It is actually over 3.6 BILLION dollars.

reply to post by joyride0187

2 of the democrat senators were found hiding at the Clock Tower Resort in Illinois.
They are Robert Jauch and Jim Holperin.
They seem to be in a hurry to get out of there.

Originally posted by 46ACE

Flatfish buddy; I'm giving credit to your assertions because we've had our discussions in the past and came to understanding.
BUT EVERY FREAKIN' SET OF GOVERNMENT NUMBERS ARE MANIPULATIONS IN ACCOUNTING IF NOT OUTRIGHT LIES. Asking for a bit of contribution toward retirement and pegging raises to the cpi without a public referendum first is hardly the death of "the union" in general.

If we can't trust the numbers in these reports, then what is this ll about? If all government numbers are manipulations or lies, just exactly who's numbers is governor Walker using? Who's numbers is he using to imply that there is an emergency worthy of the destruction worker rights in his state. Did he get his numbers from a fortune cookie or what? I find it odd that you have no problem accepting the facts, (numbers) as presented by governor Walker, who is a partisan political entity, and not those of the state's legislative accounting office which is considered to be a non-partisan and unbiased report, much like the CBO is to congress.

I don't know the specifics of the union contracts currently in place in Wisconsin but I do know that the pension plan my union has was literally created by the union voluntarily opting to forgo pay increases offered by the employer. We took that money an directed instead to create our own benefit funds. We could have easily just chosen to take the pay increase but instead of that we decided to plan ahead, insuring that we could meet the retirement needs of our workers in their old age. The money used to fund our benefit funds never was the employer's money to begin with.

Just because we opted to redirect wages into our retirement fund doesn't mean that we don't contribute on the same level as private sector employees, as a matter of fact, we contribute more. Our employers never offered to match a damn thing and our benefit trust funds were built and maintained with our own money. Furthermore, the reason that management really like it when we opted to forgo wage increases in favor on benefit contributions was because they, (the employer) didn't have to pay payroll taxes on the money as it was no longer payroll. Even the employer reaped a benefit from the agreement.

If you expect to convince me that the unions are the villain with respect to their ability to build and maintain their benefit trust funds, your going to need some numbers to back up your claim, who's numbers are you going to use?

The contracts entered into between the state of Wisconsin and it's public sector employees were not negotiated in solitude, they were the result of agreements reached by two parties and signed into legally binding contracts of which neither party should be allowed to unilaterally nullify. That's what the negotiating table if for.

Originally posted by Erasurehead
For the past two years the company I work for reduced salaries 5% across the board. No negotiations, they just did it. Same thing for my retirement plan. They reduced the 401k contributions and increased heath insurance costs for everyone. Again no asking the employees or negotiations. They said it had to be done or they would have to start letting people go.
So I ask all you pro-union people why should people like me that work in the private sector have any sympathy for these teachers that are protesting being asked to pay a small amount into their retirement and health care benefits like the rest of us do? They should get back to work and do what needs to be done to keep their jobs.
It is BS to think that just because you work in the public sector the tax payers should cover 100% of your healthcare and retirement benefits.

Well, when my employer started to treat us in an unfair manner, we organised and joined a union. That has protected us against a large range of management-generated bravo sierra. And please, let's not forget that a collective agreement is a set of rules arrived at and approved by both parties!

If you think you're being treated unfairly...which I figure you have been...start pushing for a union in the workplace. Obviously it doesn't fix everything but it reduces your statuse as a corporate doormat.

Mind you, it's always easier to sit back and complain.

reply to post by Flatfish


Maybe you do not understand the perilous financial condition of the state and the devastating consequences if we do not take strong action now to get our finances in order. Maybe you think there is a money tree somewhere that we can harvest and use the money to pay for services and benefits we can not afford. Let me clue you in on something, friend. The state is more than 3.6 BILLION dollars in the hole. The country, if you include the entitlement programs, is tens of trillions of dollars in the hole. Underfunded public and private employee pension funds add more trillions of dollars to that total. The taxpayers cannot be expected to cough up much more than they already are. So where does that leave us? Things have to be CUT. Spending has GOT to be cut. Nobody is relishing it, but it is reality. This is a matter of survival.

Originally posted by joyride0187
reply to post by Flatfish

 

Maybe you do not understand the perilous financial condition of the state and the devastating consequences if we do not take strong action now to get our finances in order. Maybe you think there is a money tree somewhere that we can harvest and use the money to pay for services and benefits we can not afford. Let me clue you in on something, friend. The state is more than 3.6 BILLION dollars in the hole. The country, if you include the entitlement programs, is tens of trillions of dollars in the hole. Underfunded public and private employee pension funds add more trillions of dollars to that total. The taxpayers cannot be expected to cough up much more than they already are. So where does that leave us? Things have to be CUT. Spending has GOT to be cut. Nobody is relishing it, but it is reality. This is a matter of survival.

How 'bout y'all start with the military instead of your neighbour?

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

Top Democratic and Republican Donors in 2010
Top Overall Donors to Republicans:

Koch Industries (note: the billioaire who is the main financier of the Teabaggers)

The owners of Koch industries (brothers David and Charles) build it up from a small company to a megcorp using there own funds. It's the largest privately owned corporation in the world (80,000 employees and 100million in income), no shareholdres, no stock manipulation to screw investors. Mr. Koch was asked once what his secret was and he said that he buys companies with good products that have been poorly managed and managed them the way they should have been. Charles also once said that "Innovation is facillitated by having the right people in the right roles with the right skills and values.".

Forbes has said they have one of the best pension and benfit packages in the private sector, there employees make well above industry average and Koch is listed as one of the 50 pest employeers in the US.

The fact that they gave money to the Teaparties is there own business, they didn't take that money from taxpayers (like a union) or through forced contributions from employees (like union dues) and since it's PRIVATELY OWNED that decision is there own.

The reason people like you are upset is because they are successful despite government intervention, they treat there employees well because it's the moral thing to do and no gov't or union forced them too. Lastly they (the owners) have been outspoken about Obama care. taxes, gov't hand outs (both to citizens and coprorations) and the global warming scam.

The example they set kind of defeats the arguement for unions.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Well, when my employer started to treat us in an unfair manner, we organised and joined a union. That has protected us against a large range of management-generated bravo sierra. And please, let's not forget that a collective agreement is a set of rules arrived at and approved by both parties!

Actually a collective bargain is not both sides, it's what the employeer finally gives into rather than have his business shut down by the union wthrough vandalism, walk outs, deliberate sabotage etc. As the Canadian postal union weeny said during there last strike , we indend to make it so costly for them that they have to give into all our demands

Personally if I ever have to deal with a union again it will be too soon, thugs and criminals who use lies to try and steal money for political goals and to line a few uppers in the unions pockets. Ever wonder why the heads of some unions live in mansions but don't work anymore?

Originally posted by exile1981

Personally if I ever have to deal with a union again it will be too soon, thugs and criminals who use lies to try and steal money for political goals and to line a few uppers in the unions pockets. Ever wonder why the heads of some unions live in mansions but don't work anymore?

If you just replace the word "union" in the above statement to "corporation," IMO it becomes a factual statement.

Maybe you should make a "factual" comparison with respect to the ratio between Corporate CEOs who live in mansions and no longer work, (as if they ever did) and union heads who live in mansions and no longer work. When your through with that, you might also compare the ratio of the total number of CEOs in this nation as compared to the total number of union heads and then let's see which segment is producing the largest number of mansion dwellers who no longer work. It's easy to spew that stuff out, now let's see you prove it.

I read this morning on the news that the average Wisconsin state worker's salary is $48,000 US.
Is that really such a poor wage? For that kind of money you should be able to avoid a comfortable, if modest lifestyle. If you want to be rich, don't work for the government - go start your own business!

It make me sad to think how effective the msm brainwashing is. Not all unions are good, but I don't know of any corporation that is good. Republicans do not support the average American. They are for the corporation and the elite, yet so many follow them, it's more than just a little curious.

I support the collective bargaining agreement, and unions. In 1980 25% of Americas workforce was union, today it's under 10%, and look at what has happened to the US companies have moved out to other countries worldwide. Many corporations moved to India and didn't waste anytime exploiting the workers, so India started passing many laws to protect workers rights and better wages, so the corporations started moving there operation to the Philippines so they could exploit the workers there,I assume that the Philippines government will be forced by the people to enact laws to protect them from the corporations, or they will unionize.

I expect the current government in this state will not survive the next election. Expect a rise in pro union movement not seen since after Upton Sinclair's book the Jungle.

People from walmart can tell you how much it sucks to work for them, a union would level the playing field and give them a voice.

Unions improve working conditions and pay and benefits, and you people are really against this???

reply to post by Flatfish


I'll work on that challenge later, today i'm handing over information on a corrupt politician to the media. His office is swamped from media calls and he just took off to arizona for a spur of the moment holiday.

reply to post by LS650


I don't think that this debacle going on in Wisconsin is because unions are asking for "more." This is about taking away their fundamental right to organize and negotiate for their wages and working conditions. This is about living up to the terms of legally binding contracts which both parties agreed upon at the time they were negotiated.

Sounds to me like you're the one complaining because union workers tend to earn 15 to 20% more than their non-union counterparts so maybe if you, (non-union counterparts) want to earn as much as they do, you should go get yourself a union job. Either that or learn to stand up for yourselves and stop waiting for union people to fight for wage and working standards that benefit all working people, even those who won't stand up for themselves.

Every increase in this nation's minimum wage rates have been predicated by unions being successful in obtaining wage increases in their collective bargaining agreements. As a matter of fact, you wouldn't even have a minimum wage in this country if it were not for unions. Go figure.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck



The US Military spending is at the federal level. We are talking about State budget in this case. It has nothing to do with the current situation.

If a private business pays out more than it brings in they end up going out of business. If a state pays out more than it brings in they can either cut spending or raise taxes. Taxes can only be raised so much before you really start hurting peoples ability to put food on the table.

The only option is to ask the public works to make some sacrifices and pay into their retirement and healthcare plans like the rest of us do. They still make a good wage and they will keep their jobs. The other alternative is to start laying off people.

Dragon Im with you I dont get it.
10% of the workforce is union yet the Republican stance is any/all unions are bad.
WTF?
Honestly how can 10% of the workforce that gets a medium wage be more harmfull than all the buisiness's that Dont Want too pay taxes or fair wages for that matter.
Wheres the Logic in protecting the weaker being Bad.
Oh yeah I forgot Republican Crapitalism thats where.
How did Companies paying taxes end up being bad for the civil majority?
Corrupt BS thats all it is.
With this brillant GOP economic model I predict that we will have only a few uber rich folks and a much much larger poverty class that they eventually will have too deal with.
Brilliant Strategy GOP. Pillage and Burn tactics again.

reply to post by Erasurehead


Or, states and municipalities could quit offering tax abatements to corporations as an enticement to get them to locate in their district. This all too common practice does nothing other than to destroy the tax base and pass the extra burden on to the non-exempt tax paying worker. It also pits state against state and city against city in a mad race to the bottom where the only people paying taxes are workers and as soon as the abatement expires, the corporation moves on to the next free tax zone.

reply to post by Flatfish


After my personal experience being part of a union I would never want to be part of one again. No thanks.

I would rather get rewarded for my personal achievement rather than be part of a collective. If I work harder than the guy next to me why shouldn't I be rewarded with a bigger raise than him? When it come time for layoffs why should the hard working guy that only has 2 years on the job get let go instead of the lazy good for nothing guy that has 5 years on the job?

I hated working for a union. When I worked in a union a long time ago I was told by the other union workers not to work too fast because I was taking overtime away from other guys. Screw that, I was always taught to work hard for your employer and earn your pay. If I am given a job to do I try to get it done as fast as possible so I can move on to the next task. I never heard of such a thing as working slowly so that there will be overtime.

Originally posted by Erasurehead
reply to post by Flatfish

 

After my personal experience being part of a union I would never want to be part of one again. No thanks.

I would rather get rewarded for my personal achievement rather than be part of a collective. If I work harder than the guy next to me why shouldn't I be rewarded with a bigger raise than him? When it come time for layoffs why should the hard working guy that only has 2 years on the job get let go instead of the lazy good for nothing guy that has 5 years on the job?

I hated working for a union. When I worked in a union a long time ago I was told by the other union workers not to work too fast because I was taking overtime away from other guys. Screw that, I was always taught to work hard for your employer and earn your pay. If I am given a job to do I try to get it done as fast as possible so I can move on to the next task. I never heard of such a thing as working slowly so that there will be overtime.

I call BS.
I worked a union job for years at a production steel facility as well as the Auto industry and never ran across anyone telling folks too slow down or dont out do your fellow employee.
Thats just BS. If anything because of the minor benefits we would be Rewarded for over production as well as non sick days and other productive employee measures.
Just because you have one or 2 bad union workers does not make the whole enchilada bad.
Well unless you are GOP then any worker organization is evil just by definition.
Union wages do not drive prices up. Corporations Greed drives prices up.
You need too check yourself GOP.

reply to post by VType


Are you calling me GOP?
It's not BS. This was my personal experience when I worked in a union. I will give you another story about what happened to me. It was 1992. I was working in a steel plant that was union. The economy went south so they had to layoff some workers. They let this guy go on the third shift, he was useless. He was late all the time, called in sick every other Friday and was generally a lazy guy that did a poor job. He did just enough to keep his job and nothing more. The next day I got call into the office by management I was told that this guy put in a grievence with the union because he has senority over me. They had to give this loser his job back and let me go. I was one of the most productive employees they had.

This is my personal experience with unions. I am not saying all unions are like that. It sucked and I would never want to be in one again. I have been union free since then and I have done very well without them.

All I'd like to say is I'm a college student studying to be a high school teacher. I had to do observation hours at all levels of schooling towards my degree. When I did my high school observation hours, every teacher I spoke to said, "What ever you do, don't join the unions when you become a teacher." Why would EVERY teacher go out of their way to mention that, when I didn't bring anything like that up?