A European's Perspective on socialism and why Americans reject it

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
reply to post by lokdog

 

Cast my stones? No. More trashing me on my thread. Why are you people even responding if all it is going to be negative? I think it's jealousy. I really do. American patriotism is a farce. You are a land made up of immigrants and foreigners, yet, you hate non-Americans! Hypocrites. Like I said, Sweden isn't perfect but we will see who is standing at the end of the day.

Thank you all for responding. I came into this thread being optimistic and now I dislike America. Now there is no doubt in my mind why the world hates you. Frankly, it doesn't matter what you think of me or my country. I don't represent my whole country, not at all, but I will be sure to tell and show everyone I know exactly how ON A SITE I THOUGHT WAS PROMOTING THINKING OUTSIDE OF THE BOX is just another faux 'we all think outside of the box' BS. When someone from the outside expresses their thoughts, it is automatically shot down and debunked. Or finger pointing. ATS is one negative site. My judgement isnt from this petty thread it's the site itself and almost all the threads are full of negativity. Thanks.

Originally posted by macman
That is all good for you.
Please keep your hands off my Govt. I will do the same.

I do not want anything but a Democratic Republic.

The two are not mutally exclusive!

You can have a democratic or republican Government with social programmes. Take France, for example, or Germany. Both Republics. Germany is actually a good country to compare the US too, as it is a federal republic with semi-autonomous states.

It's also worth noting that a Democracy and a Republic are two different concepts.

reply to post by lokdog


You need to re-read my thread the point i was making is sweden due to Socialism has a far more equal distribution of wealth compared to the USA.In the united states it is rule by the rich the only way a congressman can get elected is by selling there soul to corprate lobbyist at the expense of the people, the avg. joe can never afford to get a cobgressman elected therefore they only represent corperations and the wealthy and piss on the avg. American QFT.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
reply to post by macman

 

Riiiight. Bravo, alpha male. Since you have such a grandiose attitude, it should be no wonder to you why some citizens of the world reflect so negatively on Americans like you.

I am not a citizen of the world. I am a US citizen.
Again, I do not need your take on my country. I have yet and will never start a thread, or voice why I think your country is wrong or so on.
That is the main difference. I am fine with how you and your country operate. I don't really care. It is your country.
I expect the same.
As for a negative view of me, don't really care. I don't live my life for you or your beliefs.

let me understand you. are you saying it is ok for your country to go half way round the world and start illegal wars, kill millions of people and topple democratic governments but it is not ok for anyone from outside the usa to critisise your countires beliefs. this my freind is real life and ats is an international forum. so if you dont like critisim for other countries maybe you should go somewhere else.

kx

the perfect system is capitalism paying for socialism. that's what i think you're trying to say, and what you have in sweden.

if no one worked, then no taxes would be paid and no services could be provided.

the trouble is america is totally corrupt. racism has completely decimated the black population in the u.s. you'll never get a white redneck to agree to pay income tax if it went to help a black person.

america is just completely screwed up. eventually it'll just collapse, they'll get desperate, start a nuclear war and be erased from history.

i just hope they don't take the rest of the world with them, but most likely that'll happen.

eventually, what little is left of the american population will create a new society and having experienced the horrors of nuclear war, death and destruction will look to other nations as an example.

mainly ones, like sweden, that haven't completely annihilated themselves.

reply to post by randomname


Thanks randomname. You summed up what I was trying to say. I just didn't think everything through when I wrote this thread.

Anura....im sorry, maybe your not delusional, just naive. Im sure that you have crooked politicians as well. Over here, all of ours are. I know the things they say may sound good, but you need to look at the true demonstration of their character....which is their history and voting record. Both supported the illegal wars in the gulf, both supported the destruction of american freedoms which are the patriot acts, both supported the bailout (and got plenty money for it from the banks). Anyone can make a speech, sadly these two refuse to stand by anything they say. Further more, you may say they sound decent, but next to the educating and accurate speeches given by people like Putin, Chavez, and other international leaders, our elected officials sound like dribbling morons, who couldnt talk their way out of a cardboard box. ESPECIALLY Palin, who often talks about on the same level as Bush the second.

reply to post by lokdog

In the united states it is rule by the rich the only way a congressman can get elected is by selling there soul to corprate lobbyist at the expense of the people, the avg. joe can never afford to get a cobgressman elected therefore they only represent corperations and the wealthy and piss on the avg. American QFT.

Hopefully we Americans are all well aware of that. However the wealthy, who have run the United states for the past hundred years CALL themselves socialists. They PROMOTE socialism. J.P. Morgan bought control of the US mews media in 1917 and has been promoting socialism not capitalism ever since.

This gives a good explanation of The Fabian Socialist Society, the Round Table, and the Rhodes Scholars and just WHO they are and there connection to the Council on Foreign Relations and US government.

If the wealthy in America were not in favor of socialism, then why is it taught in all the schools and promoted in all the news media?? Heck why did FDR have handlers like Louis Howe, Bernard Baruch and Harry Hopkins, who represented the international banking cartel? (FDR was supposedly the great "Socialist" president.)

Why was "Colonel" House, a front man for the International banking fraternity, literally living in the White House with President Woodrow Wilson?

Edward Mandell House ["Colonel" House] and some of his schoolmates were also members of Cecil Rhodes Round Table group. The Round Table Group, the back bone of the Secret Society, had four pet projects, a graduated income tax, a central bank, creation of a Central Intelligence Agency, and the League of Nations.... www.gemworld.com...

Carroll Quigley was Bill Clinton's mentor at Georgetown University. President Clinton has publicly paid homage to the influence Professor Quigley had on his life. In Quigley's magnum opus Tragedy and Hope (1966), he states:

"There does exist and has existed for a generation, an international ... network which operates, to some extent, in the way the radical right believes the Communists act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with the Communists, or any other groups and frequently does so. I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments. I have objected, both in the past and recently, to a few of its policies... but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known." www.constitution.org...

Um, yeah, crimvelvet, I dont know what world youre living in, but in the US, socialism is one of the most reviled terms, often causing people to fly off into rants of ignorant and uneducated regurgitation of all the right wing talking points and catchy meaningless slogans. Socialism is taught in schools....totally vilified and discounted, often with horror stories of huge bread lines and waiting forever for medical care. It is never portrayed positively, and on mainstream media, whenever they have a debate between a liberal and a conservative, they always find the dumbest most idiotic liberal they can find like combs, who cant put two reasonable sentences together. The US and its media and education are so far right, that they think the center is left, and have no clue what a true european liberal is. Nor do they realize that most of the founding fathers would be considered liberal by today's standards.

Just look at the united nations stats for the countries with the highest standards of living and education youll find those damn socialist in western europe dominate the charts, nuff said.

Originally posted by lokdog
Just look at the united nations stats for the countries with the highest standards of living and education youll find those damn socialist in western europe dominate the charts, nuff said.

So, I'm a little confused This is a bad thing? LOL

Finally someone who knows what they are talking about. All the time I will see topics like "Why is Obama making this a socialist/communist country" people need to understand the two different ideologies but the fact is no one really seems to care. They just work, eat go home and watch gossip and other useless propaganda. Ever heard of Fox News? there mainly responsible for this. I have heard Glenn Beck say things like "Socialism makes people lazy" and "Obama hates white people" I have been a Socialist for years and I think Canada should follow what Sweden is doing considering our population size and all.

reply to post by pexx421

Um, yeah, crimvelvet, I dont know what world youre living in...

How about 20 years in Massachusetts, home of some of the foremost Marxist Scholars in the World!

Heck my Card Carrying Communist friend had to join the republican party and work the voting poles because there were not enough republican in town to hold an election legally!

OP I strongly suggest going back to Misoir's first post. He clearly and succinctly describes the issues in the United States. I am not trying to be pejorative, or to disregard your points. I just do not think you really understand his points. Please read it again, and ask any questions you have about it.

Crimevelvet you are absolutely correct in showing the role of Fabian Socialism. Sadly, I believe that many are at a place where these truths are inconceivable. It is beyond the current mindset of many to comprehend the scale of creeping statism (I believe socialism and progressivism bring too many skeletons that they cloud discussion). That is not to say the terms are incorrect, but people have vested emotions into the words and will argue accordingly. I wish that those reading would really research the role of Fabian Socialist thought, and what a role it has had on the US political system over the past century.

As an American citizen, I would fully support a decision by our government to become socialist. I think it is exactly what we need. That and debt forgiveness. Why can't the world just realize that the earth has plenty of resources for everyone, and why can't everyone have their basic needs met and more provided they work, and not try to get more than they need?

reply to post by stephinrazin

....That is not to say the terms are incorrect, but people have vested emotions into the words and will argue accordingly. I wish that those reading would really research the role of Fabian Socialist thought, and what a role it has had on the US political system over the past century.

Thank you that is why I was specific in stating "Fabian Socialist" since there are many different forms of "socialism" or "collectivism" All however have things in common such as the rights of the people coming from the state and the GROUP having more rights than the individual.

“What unites the many different forms of Socialism.. is the conception that socialism (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) must be handed down to the grateful masses in one form or another, by a ruling elite which is not subject to their control...” marxists.org

What our friends in Europe forget is that they also have creeping statism in the form of the unelected European Union which is dictating more and more to the individual countries not to mention the WTO/UN that dictates to all of us.

like michael moore said: you don't pay for the police force, the fire department, very little for an ambulance, if at.

isn't that socialism? a government service provided by the state.

you come home one day and your wife and kids are tied in chairs and 5 guys harmed with pistols are in the middle of a home invasion. would you like to be put on hold, while the 9/11 operator checks your credit and waits for your credit card to go thru before they dispatch the police. if for some reason your card is declined and they don't take cash, they hang up and tell you you're own. or worse they show up, save your family and give you a bill for $75,000. you can't afford it, remortgage your house, then lose it because you can't make the payments. that's capitalism. someone provides a service and you compensate them for it.

if your anti-socialist, then the above scenario is perfect for your society.

reply to post by randomname

.....if your anti-socialist, then the above scenario is perfect for your society.

Bud, I have HAD that type of senerio go thru with the blasted police. Not once but FOUR times. Three grand larcenies including name and description of thief plus wittnesses. And one attempted murder by strangulation AS IT was occurring.

With the attempted murder the cops were checking license and registrations within WALKING distance and we STILL got "I'm sorry that is private property you will have to wait till the man is dead to report it!"

At this point I have nothing but contempt for the police. In the USA they are a revenue generating source and nothing more. The actual prevention of crime and the catching of criminals is not part of the actual agenda. I can point to and NAME over a DOZEN murderers, thieves and drug dealers the local cops have done nothing about.

"Civil asset forfeiture has allowed police to view all of America as some giant national K-Mart, where prices are not just lower, but non-existent — a sort of law enforcement 'pick-and-don't-pay.'"
—U.S. Representative Henry Hyde

Incredible as it sounds, civil asset forfeiture laws allow the government to seize property without charging anyone with a crime....

Eighty percent of property forfeited to the US during the previous decade was seized from owners who were never even charged with a crime! Over $7 billion has been forfeited to the federal government since 1985. .... law enforcement officials promoting expanded forfeiture laws comprised the overwhelming majority of lobbyists at hearings on forfeiture litigation. Meanwhile, prosecutors complained that police were less available to investigate crimes that did not involve forfeiture.

Over 200 federal forfeiture laws are attached to non-drug related crimes. Even a false statement on a loan application can trigger forfeiture. Physicians are subject to forfeiture of their entire assets based on a clerical errors in medicare billing....

Under civil asset forfeiture laws, the simple possessoin of cash, with no drugs or other contraband, can be considered evidence of criminal activity.

"Even if you're a law-abiding citizen who's never been convicted of a crime, local police are allowed to confiscate your property and money and keep up to 80 percent of it for themselves, with the legal stipulation that this windfall be spent only on programs likely to result in additional confiscations...

...When asked why a search warrant would not be served on a suspect known to have resale quantities of contraband, one officer responded:

"Because that would just give us a bunch of dope and the hassle of having to book him (the suspect). We've got all the dope we need in the property room, just stick to rounding up cases with big money and stay away from warrants."

In one case an agency instructed the researcher to observe the suspect's daily transactions reselling a large shipment of coc aine so that officers could postpone making the bust until after the majority of the drug shipment was converted to cash. This case was only one of many in which the goal was profit rather than reducing the supply of drugs reaching the street....

reply to post by crimvelvet


Crimvelvet, sorry to hear that. However, that sounds like injustice, not socialism. How can you relate injustice to socialism? That isn't socialism's fault if one were to lay blame.

Originally posted by purplemer

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
reply to post by macman

 

Riiiight. Bravo, alpha male. Since you have such a grandiose attitude, it should be no wonder to you why some citizens of the world reflect so negatively on Americans like you.

I am not a citizen of the world. I am a US citizen.
Again, I do not need your take on my country. I have yet and will never start a thread, or voice why I think your country is wrong or so on.
That is the main difference. I am fine with how you and your country operate. I don't really care. It is your country.
I expect the same.
As for a negative view of me, don't really care. I don't live my life for you or your beliefs.

let me understand you. are you saying it is ok for your country to go half way round the world and start illegal wars, kill millions of people and topple democratic governments but it is not ok for anyone from outside the usa to critisise your countires beliefs. this my freind is real life and ats is an international forum. so if you dont like critisim for other countries maybe you should go somewhere else.

kx

I never said it was right or just for the US Fed Govt to do these things.
You and I have come to debate on many threads, and what you simply miss is that fact that I do not condone the actions of the Fed Govt. I am pro-America, I am pro-individual rights and anti big Govt.
Please stop trying to make me into something i am not. You don't really know or understand my stance on the military position. If you want to discuss that, please PM me. I think you will be surprised.