A European's Perspective on socialism and why Americans reject it

If the taxes go to services and not just interest on the national debt and the taxes dont choke off the engine of capitalism and the system doesnt run out of "other people's money" and the authorities dont become a feudalistic predatory class....then such a combination is both workable and beneficial but if and when the money runs out then the "have nots" will vote to take away more from the "haves" until the system is unsustainable. Balance is key.

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


We have the Krona as our central monetary unit. We also accept, but do not redistribute, the Euro. We have a system much like the US's. Like I said we are a capitalist/socialist state. We are ultimately under EU rule, which many of us Swedes regret. As far as credit goes, I have no idea, I am not an economist.

We have a vast mixture of 'races' here. Mostly of Middle Eastern and African descent, whether nationalized or by birth. As much of Europe of today does.

Originally posted by pexx421
Aha! then macman makes another funny comment about how he is fine with how other countries operate! While at the same time he pays taxes to our nation, which go to bombing other nations and stealing their natural resources. Most likely supports sweat shops and child labor too by wearing nikes and shopping at wal mart. All while probably defending "personal responsibility"

It is all well and nice to live in the world of "I hate America" and so on.
I, have little to no control of what my run away Fed govt does. If I were in control, we would be out of 99% of foreign affairs. Our military would not be sent to fight other countries battles. Fend for yourself.

I hate Nike like no other. Don't like Walmart much either.
Again, maybe get your stereotypes correct before you go off. Or check your facts.

Originally posted by pexx421
Sorry, but you're way off. First of all, Israel is the 52'nd state. : ) Secondly, obama wants nothing like your government, and he doesnt want any form of socialism. That is just demonization of the right and the press. What he actually wants, the same as all democrats and republicans....barring perhaps 4 (one repub and 3 dems)(um...thats gravel, kucinich, paul, and maybe one or two we dont know about) is to transfer all the money from the middle class and working poor to the wealthy elite. Every single program or decision that obama has supported has been to benefit the corporations. His proposed "obamacare" was created solely to guarantee every american would be forced to pay the health insurance industries, and also to guarantee massive profit to the corporations, and did nothing to provide better or cheaper healthcare to the populace. His bailout and his stimulus packages were made to protect the profits and safety of the banks, and did nothing to help the americans losing jobs or homes, and the expanded wars he supports are there solely to secure the flow of oil, and to put money into the pockets of arms manufacturers and defense contractors, and do nothing to provide security or defense to americans. All the people who call him a socialist, are liars, though it would be better for us all if he were. True socialists take offense at being grouped with him. All the people saying he wants to redistribute wealth.....are correct, but not in the way they think. Like all most powerful elected officials, his goal is to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich, which in america is ok, while transfering wealth from the rich to the poor is anathema. There is class warfare going on, but it is being waged....and won...by the wealthy.

So, do you think the recedivism in the American economy is all the government's fault because they spent trillions on wars and bailouts, etc.? Do you believe that Americans, themselves, had a major role in the decline of the dollar due to poor credit, wasteful spending, personal debts, buying houses and gas-guzzling SUV even when they knew they couldn't afford it? Or, is it the same old blame the rich because they have all the money and I don't? I'm confused, do Americans have and hole personal responsibility and maybe that was a major reason as to why the dollar declined? Could that be relevant at all?

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by pexx421
Aha! then macman makes another funny comment about how he is fine with how other countries operate! While at the same time he pays taxes to our nation, which go to bombing other nations and stealing their natural resources. Most likely supports sweat shops and child labor too by wearing nikes and shopping at wal mart. All while probably defending "personal responsibility"

It is all well and nice to live in the world of "I hate America" and so on.
I, have little to no control of what my run away Fed govt does. If I were in control, we would be out of 99% of foreign affairs. Our military would not be sent to fight other countries battles. Fend for yourself.

I hate Nike like no other. Don't like Walmart much either.
Again, maybe get your stereotypes correct before you go off. Or check your facts.

First of all, you injected the anti-Americanism into this thread. I never said I disliked America. You seem to have a guilty conscious. Seems to me that you think everyone is out to get America. I don't think so, and i need to get my stereotypes correct? LOL. I won't even comment on that. As a matter of factly, I'm not wasting anymore energy on you. Like I said, God Bless America.

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
reply to post by macman

 

Well, we can start keeping our hands off your government, as you say, when you pay back the billions you owe us and the rest of the world, cowboy.

"cowboy"(?)
Well; Come get it. "Sven..."

I 'm glads it works for Europe. We need to maintain this Democratic Republic if not for OUR laws and traditions but also simply to be a "menu choice"in the world.Some people want to live in a country with liberally available firearms and less than holy reverence for govt. Where are the down trodden working class of other countries gonna' migrate to to start family businesses.and improve their lives if capitalist societies go the way of Europe?Where are sick Canadians going to go to get hospital appointments when time matters? Mexicans hike here; we go to Australia;Canada or Belize depending on tolerance for bad beer and climate .

actually anura, i do blame TPTB. Reason being, we do not have a democracy here, however much people like to think so. The only time americans are actually allowed to vote on issues is locally, and then its things like "should english be the official language", "should pot be legalized for medicinal use", "should gay people be allowed to marry". Its never on anything which affects corporate or federal interest. We are not allowed to vote on war, taxes, bailouts or other corporate subsidies, etc. In other words, anything truly important to the american populace we have no real say in. Many voted for Obama, and they were in effect voting for an end to war, torture, and to provide transparency. Once he got into office, they got the opposite of all these things. The runners with the largest corporate backing are the only ones who make it to the final elections, so americans really only get to chose WHICH rich corporate stooge will sit in office to "represent" them.

Further, you cant have true democracy without an educated populace. For the last 60 years, there has been a strong push by special groups to consumerize america, and it has turned all the values of the current generations to consumption. Sadly, americans are now some of the least educated of the western industrialized powers, and you can not have democracy or freedom without an educated populace.

Lastly, it is NOT personal debt, SUV's, wasteful spending, and buying houses that has collapsed the dollars. It is the fraudulent Mortgage backed securities and other financial instruments and gimmicks created by the investing groups after the deregulation on banking and investing that has caused the massive bubbles and pops that have destroyed our economy....combined with multiple costly wars. Its the same groups that have caused such chaos in your own european economies. It is the same investment scams causing heartache and problems for the whole world, such as futures speculation on food which is causing starvation and poverty to skyrocket in third world countries, or investment control of water blocking rights of people in third world countries to catch rain water for drinking.

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
So, do you think the recedivism in the American economy is all the government's fault because they spent trillions on wars and bailouts, etc.?

No, it is not ALL the fault of the gov't, but the money spent on military adventurism and bailing out the high-end criminals does not help a bit. Military spending is, from an economic POV, the worst kind of spending, as it consists of unbelievable amounts of money spent on one-use items. At one point the US was spending $5000/second in Iraq.

Do you believe that Americans, themselves, had a major role in the decline of the dollar due to poor credit, wasteful spending, personal debts, buying houses and gas-guzzling SUV even when they knew they couldn't afford it?

Yes, definitely that is part of the problem. Conspicuous Consumption is practically a religion here among some social circles.

Or, is it the same old blame the rich because they have all the money and I don't?

Probably some of that, with reason. The tax system, the employment situation, the banking industry, the legal system, etc are all geared towards benefit of the already wealthy, at the expense of all others. So while this kind of attitude doesn't help much, it is understandable.

I'm confused, do Americans have and hole personal responsibility and maybe that was a major reason as to why the dollar declined? Could that be relevant at all?

A lot of American culture these days is form over substance. There is a lot of noise about 'personal responsibility' and 'personal freedom', but these are often code phrases for "I want MY personal freedom. I'm not so much worried about yours.".

But the main reason the dollar is in decline is because the US has practiced poor economic discipline for decades... massive amounts of money spent on military adventurism, forced adoption of discredited economic theories (AKA Trickle Down Economics), massive amounts of money borrowed from around the world to pay for it all.

And meanwhile the same obvious crooks are elected to our Congress time after time. An interesting statistic is that when the USSR still existed, the rate of turnover in the USSR Politburo was higher than the rate of turnover in the US Congress.

Thank you for your perspective. However I feel you are missing a big part of why people don't like "Obama's socialism". It's unfair for you to attribute racism as being a factor of significance, when at the end of the day we elected a black president. People are opposed to Obama moving in a direction that is further from our constitution and national values. Any heavy left-leaning is seen as unAmerican as a rule. This is just my take on it though.

reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic


That's sad. So, please educate me as to why alot of people are against Sarah Palin? I see she has always stood for her fellow Americans, yet people bash her every chance they get? If she stands for the people, why so much hate? I just used her for an example. If we had a revolt here, and a Swede stood up for the people, we would (probably) support her. If there is so much distrust and angst towards the government there, it would seem more people would turn towards someone to lead.

I remember watching/following the '08 US Presidential election and remember when Obama said he was going to fundamentally change America. He overwhelmed the polls. It appeared that America agreed with him. 2 years later, the people turn on him. Did they really expect things to turn around overnight? Impatience? Like I said, it took us 25 yrs to get where we are. It didn;t happen like that.

If America is that messed up, one has to wonder if there is a chance for America to turn things around? I weep for the kids.

reply to post by TheAnuraOne


Actually before getting on your high horse, and maybe put the American Stereotypes booklet down, you would see that my last reply was to pexx421.

I never said you, being TheAnuraOne, was being anti American. I stated that your take on how our system works and what we should except with open arms is wrong.

No assumptions, no half-cocked statements of your heritage or what ever you want.
Again, I do not, me, inject my criticisms of your system or country. I would expect the same. I don't know you, don't know how you live your life. The same goes for you.

I will take my Democratic Republic thank you. And before anyone chimes in with its not really such anymore, you are correct. It needs to go back to how it was originally formed.

Like I said, Socialism isn't what your media leads (some) of you to believe. That's what this thread is about. If somehow America could incorporate it into their government, you would see positive results. First, though, educate yourself about exactly what I am talking about and don't judge based on what others have told you, including me. I tried to make an interesting and personal revelation as to why I think socialism isn't as bad as what I have heard American media portrayed it to be. That's all. First, and maybe last thread I create.

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne

Allow me to dissect your thread based off of my knowledge in regards to political history and political philosophy along with my understanding of America for I am an American.

I think, in my humble opinion, that misconceptions and media lies are what has fueled this 'revolution' ,as you call it, in America. Obama has/is trying to create a European-style government molded like my Swedish government. Contrary to popular misinformation, it is not molded after our good neighbors in England nor America's neighbors to the north, Canada. With the media lying about what kind of government it would be (if Obama were successful) the Americans have becomed hoodwinked. You have been lied to about exactly what kind of government he's trying to make, and what it would be like.

You are correct as the media have been consistently lying about the motifs of this administration. President Obama has not been set upon a course of strict Social Democratic principles and philosophy but rather his ideology has been molded throughout his life with past associations with radical Communists and Socialists. Obama is not a Socialist, per se, as Socialism has been altered from what we be defined as ‘original intent’.

Today’s Socialism is rather the ‘nit-picking’ of Socialist ideology combined with the profiteering of Market Capitalism. It has been morphed, at least here in America, into a unique ideology of state regulation over nationalization, revolutionary individualism over communitarianism, and most profoundly internationalism.

So in the original sense of the term ‘Socialism’, Obama is not one, however he is, just like the rest of the Progressive movement, rather an offshoot of the original ideology.

The revolt, as you will, can be blamed on numerous factors: bigotry, racism, fear and ignorance are just a few that come to mind.

Now you have dragged yourself down into stereotyping individuals for their independent political beliefs which are different than your own. Instead of recognizing free-thought and the acceptance that others may adhere to one of the numerous ideologies separate from Socialism, they, to you, are immediately labeled “bigots, ignorant, and racist”. You here are expressing arrogance.

I have decided that maybe a Swede's perspective on this all might inform some of the people who are just not knowledgeable on the afforementioned subject. In my opinion, he's not trying to create a new USSR/USA hybrid a many of you believe. That is just ridiculous to believe that. Anyways, back to the topic.

You are one Swede who has absolutely no right to speak on behalf of your fellow Swedes. So the opinions expressed in your OP I will attach only to you, the individual, and not associate them with Swedes in general.

For example, here in Sweden we are NOT a (completely) socialist country. We are a mixture of capitalism and socialism.

Like the rest of the world Sweden, like the United States, is a Mixed Economy. However your nation leans more Social Democratic than most.

I know, I know. People hear that word socialism and they think communism. Wrong. That is a media lie.

Socialism is the transition ideology towards the final goal which is Communism, a stateless and classless society. However there are variants within Socialism such as Social Democracy, best expressed with the ‘Nordic Model’, which is a combination of Socialism and Capitalism. Then there is Democratic Socialism which is the belief in Socialism, minus the revolutionary transition. Finally you have original Socialism which adheres to revolutionary overthrow of the bourgeois to establish a dominant proletariat.

So which variant of Socialism are you discussing here?

We accept all religions and promote independant thought. Last time I checked, that was anti-communism.

Actually Communism, if understood on philosophical grounds, is merely the devotion to a stateless, private property-less, and classless society. However if you are to understand Communism as the only form ever implemented then yes you are right, free-thought and free-religion is anti-Leninist.

However, the American media has portrayed ALL socialism to be communism and that is just wrong. We are vastly different than China and the old USSR.

Of course you are and I doubt anyone is truly challenging that. Both the USSR and PRC are ‘communist’ states, that is an oxymoron, which were/are (respectively) ruled by Statism. It is the absorption of the economy into the hands of the centralized state. Whether you want to call it ‘State Socialism’ or ‘State Capitalism’ it all depends. Regardless it revolves around the concentration of wealth and power within the hands of the ruling party, which becomes an oligarcy.

Here in Sweden, we have virtually no one on welfare (and from the media outlets and blogs I have read from the States regarding socialism, according to them everyone would be on welfare) and almost nothing is handed out.

Define the use of the welfare state. Because from my understanding using a welfare state is the means of collecting any form of monetary value from a governing body whether that is directly through a government-to-individual check, assistance with housing, food, schooling, transportation, or health care. Easily defined it is the transfer of any money from the state to assist an individual, group of individuals, or organization, which the money is not there’s but rather originally came from another source (individual, business, etc…)

So you are telling me that there is absolute zero, none, no person(s) receives money from the state which did not come from their pocket book only?

If that is the case then why is Sweden labeled a welfare state? And why does your government collect 46.4% of all the Gross Domestic Product in the economy? Nearly half of your economy is then owned by the government.

Our taxes pay for every service we receive, every program we enroll in, every school we attend, everything.

Okay well the same thing occurs here. It is called a welfare state. Unless you, the individual, invested that money straight from your own income, then it is welfare. If something provided by the government, that you are using or is provided to you, that you did not pay for 100% in full, it is welfare.

Let me explain this better. If you are let us say attending college (hypothetical here) and the state is assisting you, even though you have paid taxes, but your schooling did not come directly from your individual taxes paid in, it is welfare. So long as someone else had to pay for something you are receiving, regardless of whether you pay taxes or not, it is welfare.

You won't hear that in the media over there.You are told that you will be in a bread line, with no job and no money.

Hardly anyone in Sweden is in a breadline and most people have a job. The problem here however is that you do not fund and supply everything for yourself, the investments made in Sweden are not done by the individual but rather by the state. Do you pay for your own school out of pocket (not taxes)? Do you pay for your own health care out of pocket (not taxes)? Does everything you utilize in your country come out of your pocket from your individual investment or is it directed by the state which received the money from tax payers?

We have virtually no unemployment and almost no welfare recipients.

Actually the unemployment rate in Sweden is at 8.1% and the youth unemployment rate is at almost 25%. I could argue with you that Sweden actually has a much higher unemployment rate than 8.1% but then I would just be attacked for propaganda because I used 'American sources'.1 However if you are interested you can visit this site for yourself which puts Sweden's real unemployment rate between 20-25%... in 2006.2

Try visiting some of the links provided below to see for yourself the truth about Sweden's economy.

'Inflexible welfare model keeping young Swedes out of work'

You hear that we Swedes have free healthcare, free this and free that, and milk and cookies for bedtime. Absolutely not. We pay for everything via our taxes.

Of course it is not free because you have to pay excessive taxes. The complaint is that you pay taxes to the government to provide those services to you without you, the individual, providing them for yourself. It is like putting money in a community pot for everything in town, it goes according to income, then everyone gets equal rights to the places in town. It then becomes a redistribution of wealth because the wealthy have put more into the pot than the poor but they all get equal access.

Do the math: Tom is forced to put $75 dollars into the jar because he is wealthy. Emily is forced to put $40 dollars into the jar because she is lower working class. Yet both of them receive the equal return which is $57.50. Who has won here?

Here in Sweden it works and I will give you two examples of why it works:

1. Sweden has nowhere near the population as America does. Our form of government will only work for much smaller populated countries.

2. Here in Sweden, when we pay our taxes, it actually goes to what the government says it will: services. Our government doesn't take the taxes from us and spend it on other things, then borrow from a program to pay for it and borrow from another program to pay for the borrowed (from) program, and then borrow from another country to pay for all the borrowing from its programs that it has done! That's INSANE!. What a hairball the IRS is dealing with and to think it's from its own bosses' doing!

Wow that really sounds like they are balancing the sheets. However I have to ask you if that is how it works, and I will take you for your word, then why does Sweden have a public debt of 40.80% of GDP? And why does it have a external debt of 165% of GDP?

Obama means well, but he's vain to think that our style of government would work over there. Capitalism is great, but so is socialism if it is applied right and the public is educated enough about it. Hence, Deny Ignorance. How appropriate.

Obama does not mean well, in fact, he means the opposite of well. For if his concentration was on the welfare of the nation and not of a select few then he would not be making exceptions in his health care bill for certain businesses, he would invest in this country so that it benefits all people of the country which means investment in infrastructure, ports, business opportunities, etc… rather than to help just a select few in this country who then become dependent upon government assistance.

Our constitution reads: “ The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;”

It says for the general welfare of the United States not for the welfare of the individual citizen of the United States. Obama is wrong and his actions are clearly unconstitutional.

Now, is Sweden the land of milk and honey? I don't know. But, it's working. I do know that. We have billions of Krona in surplus and we have no outstanding bills owed.

Actually Sweden was in a budget deficit for 2009. Revenues: $196.9 billion, Expenses: $211.4 billion.4. And actually you have a public debt as well of 43.2% of GDP.

It took us 25 years for it to finally start working. It didn't happen overnight and I think that is the crucial mistake Obama made. He tried to do everything at once. You cannot do that. Plus, TPTB would have to give up some control if our style of government was enacted over there. Well, as we all know, they would NEVER go for that.

There is one reason it ever worked youse and that fact is the Nordics have never had oppressive governments in your past 6 or 7 centuries. You never had to overthrow and oppressive tyrant that governed you. Your governments never terrorized and attacked your people. You are an exception to the world. However in light of the recent globalization that you Scandinavians have strongly embraced you will have to dismantle your welfare state whether that is just mostly or in full because you cannot compete with a large welfare state. Ever notice how within the last 2 decades your welfare state has shrunk? There is a reason for that.

Sweden is a valuable trading partner with the USA and we our sometimes referred to as the '52' state. We don't hate America, We are rooting for you!

How could you be the ‘52nd state’ when we only have 50? Plus I have never heard of that before and I doubt most Americans would embrace that. Plus no one here ever thought you guys hated us.

Get this racial crap behind you, unite together against your lying and deceitful government and take control of your country!

If you think that we oppose Obama because he is an African-American you are very truly misinformed. Just because you oppose someone does not mean you oppose them based upon their race. We oppose him on principle. There are some who oppose him for his race but they are very few.

Stop falling into the traps that the elites have set forth and educate everyone you know. Ignorance is no excuse.

The only traps set by the elite are ones where the government becomes an oligarchy, the state becomes our nanny, and we sell-out of manufacturing to other countries. Globalization is something I fear far more than Socialism, however globalization is the ideological spawn of Socialism which pushed internationalism, the inventor of globalization.

God bless USA!

Why not show some national pride and instead of declaring “God bless USA!”, which is clearly a slap in the face to most of the audience you are targeting, and declare “God bless Sweden!”. You adore your welfare state so much why would you continuously seek globalization which dismantles it? I am assuming you support globalization, if not please ignore.

I will attribute your stance on Sarah Palin to English not being your first language. I honestly mean no offense. It's only that, if you could hear the way Sarah Palin speaks from the perspective of English as a first language, we wouldn't need to discuss this. She is devastatingly unqualified, inexperienced, and inarticulate for the presidency.

People turned on Obama because he broke many of his important campaign promises. He renewed the Patriot Act with no revision. He said he was going to make bills viewable to the public for 5 days before he signed them, he's tried whisking things through congress in an underhanded manor. He said "Change" and he gave us more of that criminal Bernanke.

Originally posted by TheAnuraOne
So, please educate me as to why alot of people are against Sarah Palin? I see she has always stood for her fellow Americans, yet people bash her every chance they get? If she stands for the people, why so much hate? I just used her for an example. If we had a revolt here, and a Swede stood up for the people, we would (probably) support her. If there is so much distrust and angst towards the government there, it would seem more people would turn towards someone to lead.

Sarah Palin reminds me very strongly of a woman I know out in the real world. Many of their mannerisms are nearly identical. And this woman I know is a petty, lying, backstabbing manipulator who is always scheming for her own benefit and makes a big show of caring about other people, that is completely false. And when someone calls her on this, she goes right into a whining victim position.

And I have seen evidence that Ms. Palin behaves the same way. I personally am opposed to her because she demonstrates to a high degree something I mentioned earlier... she wants HER freedoms, and those of the people she agrees with, but she is not so willing to defend the rights of people with whom she disagrees.

I remember watching/following the '08 US Presidential election and remember when Obama said he was going to fundamentally change America. He overwhelmed the polls. It appeared that America agreed with him. 2 years later, the people turn on him. Did they really expect things to turn around overnight? Impatience? Like I said, it took us 25 yrs to get where we are. It didn;t happen like that.

Not all Americans have turned on him. He has made some pretty serious mistakes, what with being human and all. But I think what happened is two-fold:

1) Yes, Americans are impatient as a culture.
2) There has been a truly impressive Obama smear propaganda campaign in effect since before his election, that is very effective, and Obama has not been very effective in countering it. In fairness, this kind of campaign is very difficult to counter.

If America is that messed up, one has to wonder if there is a chance for America to turn things around?

I'm pretty pessimistic at the moment.

reply to post by TheAnuraOne


Why is a first and last?
No thought and/or idea should hide from scrutiny and discussion.
You pitched an idea as to why America might benefit from Socialism.
I have read on Socialism. I don't now rely on the MSM to teach me.
I know what socialism brings and does, as shown in past and current Govts.
I still say "No Thank you".
I want people in America to stand on their own. Provide for themselves and be responsible for themselves. I am tired of people looking to Govt for everything. The Govt is funded by the citizen, therefore any money that is given out is first taken. Taxes are not the right of the Govt.
If you want to live in a country that provides for every want and wish, then it is your option to do so.
I don't want it to continue nor get bigger here.

I'm gathering from this thread thar Sweden doesnt have any teabaggers, we'll yall are missing out just think how much better off your country would be with teabaggers in office ready to sell your country out to the corperations willing to piss on the poor and down trodden for campaign donations.Thats what this democratic republic really is and always has been.

Originally posted by lokdog
I'm gathering from this thread thar Sweden doesnt have any teabaggers, we'll yall are missing out just think how much better off your country would be with teabaggers in office ready to sell your country out to the corperations willing to piss on the poor and down trodden for campaign donations.Thats what this democratic republic really is and always has been.

Really??
That's what you want to turn this thread into? An "I hate Tea Party Members" post?
Is there a Kuch brother meeting you can go protest instead?

reply to post by Misoir


You tha man. Star for your en-depth explanation.

AND you have absolutely no right to speak on behalf of your fellow Americans..See? it works both ways