This Has To Stop Now

reply to post by MindSpin


I agree with what you posted . I was using 1000 dollars as an example btw. And you did shed light on the subject for me and I thank you for that. Also, I stand corrected on the points where you pointed out that I was clearly wrong.

And my asking you if you were an "illegal" was my poor attempt at sarcasm, which i am guilty of quite often. . You gained a lot of respect from me for handling all my rants and attacks in the manner that you did.

I also highly respect your point of view on sympathizing with them for wanting a better life for their families, anyone that goes risks all that they do for their families gains my respect, illegal or not. I guess I am being narrow minded on the subject thinking that they ALL just want to come here and take advantage of the citizens and the system.

Once again, I apologize and take back all the negative remarks I made towards you. I have to learn not to get soo worked up over certain issues, that is something I need to grow on and I thank you for helping me realize that.

reply to post by Night Star

Yes there are many illegal immigrants here that have absolutely nothing to do with other illegal immigrants that have killed people. There are many as I have stated before that lie and say they are a one income home and get welfare, when in reality they are a two income household making above the poverty limit who are stealing because they make too much money to even be elegible for these benefits. There are those who steal identities, those that pay for false documentations to get what they want. All of these are still crimes and illegal.

I agree...I'm sure there are "illegals" that do every single one of the things that you listed. I don't even need proof...you give me any large group of people...and I'm sure you can find individuals that commit all the crimes above. However, that does not mean that you can correlate being an "illegal" with them being guilty of commiting one of those crimes.

The only "crime" you can accuse them of is crossing an imaginary line created by other people in order for them to find some work to feed their families. Sure...technically it is a crime...so is breaking the speed limit to get a loved one to the emergency room...but I don't fault either situation and wouldn't look down on them nor judge them for doing so. In fact I applaud them for doing what they need to do to protect or provide for their loved ones.

You speak of me demonize thousands of hard working, innocent people that are trying to provide a better life for their families by trying to lump them together with murderers. Fact is that we have murderers who are illegal. Fact is that these thousands of hard working "innocent" people" that you speak of are not innocent. They know full well that they are replacing a hard working legal citizen in the job market. Fact is that we have millions of unemployed legal citizens who would have a job if it wasn't for the millions of illegals who have taken those jobs.

Yes...there are "illegals" who are murderers...it does not make all "illegals" murderers. And it doesn't make it right to try to use these individual cases to demonize a group of people. Individuals are responsible for their actions...not the group they belong to.

Everytime one person takes a job...someone else loses an opportunity. I'm not a big fan of giving certain people more rights just because of the geographical location of their birth. There is nothing stopping any American citizen from going to do the same jobs all these "illegals" are doing and working for the wage they are working for. Isn't that what the "free market" is all about?

These illegals who have lied and cheated the system have taken the place of legal citizens, many who have fallen through the cracks and are worried sick about providing for their families. What gives them the right to boldly shove aside any American citizen????? What about the citizen who has worked hard their entire lives and now have nothing because of these illegals? They have lost their homes, jobs, medical and are forced to pay for these illegals through their tax dollars when they can't afford to have their own needs met!!!!!! Is this fair? Is this right?

The world isn't really a "fair" place...it rewards those that help themselves.

reply to post by kimish


There is no need for apologies...you are passionate about your beliefs, as am I.

I think we could all work on being a little more civil when we discuss hot topics...we are all humans and have emotions...I'm no saint myself

It does take a lot to come out though and apologize like that...I respect that.


I love discussion...I even enjoy a heated and serious discussion. What I like even more though is when me and the person I am having the discussion with can continue to be friends despite our different opinions on a topic.

reply to post by SantaClaus


Actually, their only paying sales taxes on stuff they purchase. The SSN that is used to obtain a job is fraudulent. (Which, by the way is called IDENTITY THEFT). So when an "undocumented worker" fills out his W2 and sets it to the lowest amount taken directly out of the payroll check, they never pay the full amount of tax owed because you don't file a tax return on a fraudulent SSN. Then, whoever actually is the SSN owes additional taxes for income they never received, yet was reported to the IRS under their SSN.

So, they pay some payroll tax, but not the share they would if they were working here legally.

And what about identity theft? Who's being victimized on the backside of those stolen SSNs? Who's having car loans and mortgages and apartment leases taken out on their SSN? How does a car dealer track down the "undocumented worker" who decided not to pay that note they took out on someone else's SSN?

I know one crime for sure that is committed by the "undocumented worker" - IDENTITY THEFT.

reply to post by indianajoe77


I would assume most of the fake SSNs use are from deceased people. And I would also assume it is the employer providing them with the fake SSN.

I am also sure that there are some doing exactly what you described...but again...those are individuals...not the entire group.

I am also sure that the tax revenue lost from these "illegals" is small compared to the profits the company makes from hiring them.

So I must ask...why is the anger always directed soley towards the "illegals"? You can't have an "illegal" worker without an American employing them.

If the government wants to allow immigrants in, then make it legal.

If they want a law against open borders, then enforce the law.

Make up your mind!

Rule of law is crumbling in so many ways. We see it in the immigration issue, but also in finance and other places. Rule of law is an intangible public good, very difficult to quantify, but when it is lost the basic fabric of society crumbles. Its the kind of thing people don't miss until its gone. Having spent much time in the underdeveloped world, I can tell you that being able to rely on basic rule of law is one of the things that makes life in the advanced nations so attractive.

reply to post by Night Star
to add, and as soon as the cold weather hits off they go back across the border some with the help of ICE., and with all there earnings, they now how to fill in a w2 so no tax is with held, and come spring there back.

reply to post by silent thunder
not if goes against NAFTA, and all laws for prevention of illegals is not for NAFTA, North American Free Trade Agreement.

reply to post by MindSpin
this is true but how do you get in to a job when "i can not pay you what i pay him, it is not right nor fair for you" ??/ yes i have been told this, made a call to TPTB, and "we will look in to it" was the response, the biz is still in biz and still hiring cheep labor, less than min wage, now how can they pay for them selves while being here it is simple 10-20 in the house all sharing in expenses and sending the rest south, let me show you,say 10 people pay 5 dollars each per day x 30 days 50$x30 $1,500 now do you get it???

reply to post by MindSpin
you took the words right out of my mouth, it is a topic that does need to be solved one that would be a win win for us all, it is not easy nor one that can be made for everyone's liking, some would still complain, this is the way it is in life, you can stand on your head whistle Dixie plat the piano and drums, and still some would not be happy, "is that all you can do" where to start laws do not work ok, that we know, closing the border down, nice thought but no, not that, green cards? tried that and well if it worked we would not be having this thread, open border?? no 9/11 killed that, so????... that is where we are at.

reply to post by MindSpin


When you assume... well you know the rest. No these are not dead people's SSN numbers. In Chicago last year, a huge document forging ring was busted. Those are real people's SSN numbers bought on the street. And a business owner who hand's them out should be charged with identity theft as well.

Originally posted by indianajoe77
reply to post by MindSpin

 

When you assume... well you know the rest. No these are not dead people's SSN numbers. In Chicago last year, a huge document forging ring was busted. Those are real people's SSN numbers bought on the street. And a business owner who hand's them out should be charged with identity theft as well.

I'm left to assume because after searching for factual information (which you did not provide) I found nothing that I could use to come to a conclusion.

And I see again that you are not providing sources for this Chicago "document forging ring" that would provide factual information that they were using non-deceased peoples SSN. And they may have been...and that is one example...but it doesn't mean that is what is happening in the majority.

So until any solid factual information is given that shows that the majority use living peoples SSN...I am free to make an assumption based on the fact that it is much easier and less hassel to use a deceased persons SSN. Dead people don't tend to complain.

Most illegals fill out a W2 form using an ITIN number, go to the IRS website and look it up...the form even gives an option to those that don't have a valid SSN and are not eligible to get one a.k.a illegal immigrant.

the Government doesn't care really as long as they get their taxes its fine, the Republicans don't seem to mind it either since they have shot down numerous attempts at assimilating these people to our country. Illegals are being used by the right wingers/tea partiers/ republicans as a scapegoat for the economic recession that is affecting the whole world at the moment not just America, also for people bringing up the argument that deals with illegals killing legal citizens; Would it be better if an American citizen killed them?

There are many illegals that have been living here for 10+ years I know some, and no they have not had a chance to become legal because these people would jump at any opportunity to become a resident. Fact of the matter is there is no way for these people to become legal unless they marry a citizen/get sponsored by an employer or relative. Those are the only ways they can become citizens, it's not as simple as just passing a test. Don't forget the large sums of money it takes.

What we really need to concentrate on is solving the problem at hand. We know there is no way to keep the illegals out. That brings up the question, why do they come here illegally as opposed to the legal route? Due to my heated debates with Mindspin, who by the way helped me stop being soo narrow minded, I believe that the illegals are coming here illegally because of the fact that it takes a very long time to become "legal". Remember that they are human beings too with families like us and mouths to feed so their is a sense of urgency on their part to get here quickly, make money and protect their family. So in retrospect, I understand now. So, IMHO, the best way to stop illegal immigration, aside from the fences, is to make the naturalization procedure quicker than it is now. Just a thought.

I ask all of you, no matter what your belief is on this highly sensitive topic, to take a second or two and take a look from "the other side of the fence". No pun intended.

As far as the illegals that are here and commit heinous crimes only to be deported again and come back... How do we try and solve this issue? Maybe incarcerate them the first time they commit a crime because if we deport them they only come back. We should than send the country where they came from the bill for their upkeep so legal citizens don't foot the bill. That probably wouldn't work but is an Idea. I'm open to hear other suggestions for sake of debate or what have you.

It is illegal to hire someone for less than minimum wage. There are bills that are trying to go through to stop corporations and to hold them responsible.

For anyone to think an American citizen can get the same job as an illegal you are mistaken. I have seen with my own eyes at my former place of employment, a citizen more qualified for a position who was not hired while an illegal who barely spoke a word of english was hired instead. Companies know they can pay an illegal less.

So if you people have a heart for the illegal wanting a better life and to care for his family, know this: Those illegals now have replaced citizens. These citizens want a decent life and to provide for their families too and can no longer do so!!!! It upsets me that this is ok for you people. It is ok that a citizen is suffering and hungry and worried sick about their families. How can these poor people not matter all of a sudden???????

I have seen enough tears of our poor who have been replaced. I have heard enouh grief and anguish of people who are falling through the cracks. Who will stand up for them? Can someone tell me why my disabled husband had to wait two and a half years before getting disability medical coverage, while illegals have all their needs met right away? He has numerous prescriptions and doctors visits that are costly. I have no medical at all yet my tax dollars support a foreigners!!! What is wrong with this picture?

Our homeleless shelters are filled to capacity. We have people that are homeless who have never experienced such a thing in their entire lives. They have worked their butts off their entire lives and have nothing. How anyone can say it is ok that people are being replaced is beyond comprehension.

Many of our people have donated to poor countries andpeople their entire lives and now have no means to support themselves. Why don't you people understand what is happening here? I cannot fathom why our citizens are looked down upon and illegals are placed on a pedestal above them.

Do any of you realize how many citizens cannot afford life saving medications because they lost their job to an illegal? But I guess that's ok. It's perfectly fine that a foreigner can have the job. It's perfectly fine for our wages to be driven down. As long as it is happeneing to a citizen and not an illegal.

reply to post by kimish


The solution isn't to pass more laws and spend us into further debt by trying to secure our borders. The solution is to amend a few current laws and to concentrate on preventing them from getting jobs. No job means no money and no reason to come. This will get stop most illegal immigration or should I say those who are honestly coming to make a better life. But it won't stop the criminal elements.

I will repost a few questions I asked another poster to give ideas about some laws that need amending.

why hasn't the social security card been made tamper proof seeing that we have so much technology?

why haven't politicians enforce the fines on businesses?

Democrats are always blamed for being soft on illegals, but why didn't the Republicans take care of this issue when they had control of Congress?

why haven't politicians required at least one parent to be a legal citizen in order to get government benefits similar to what is called for on the US income tax?

why isn't every business obligated to use the E-Verify program the government has?

why does the US visa system still allows people to overstay their visas?

Illegals only get what government allows. Yet time and time again I hear people keep saying that illegals take advantage of our system.

How can somebody take advantage of something that is authorized by law?

As someone posted, who owns the earth? who is to say what part of the earth nature/god etc.. gave us is forbidden to some and by whom and on what authority?

I know several "illegal" imigrants that do pay taxes (I did some asking about after reading several posts on this topic) what they use is a tax ID number. not one single person that I know who is "illegal" has commited a crime that hurt someone else, the only supposed crime is that they came into this country without going through the proper channels (most were babies and really had no choice).

And to clear something up. I have no sources other than my own experience. Many people atleast in Mexico, that apply are rejected just by walking in and if the person just simply doesnt like the way you look he will automatically say denied, my cousin had that happen to him twice, and nobody wants to pay 100 dollars each time they apply only to be rejected. they get about 1,000 applicants per day and out of those one thousand only ten get approved, and really only if they have connections. My cousin said screw it he will no longer apply and he now never wants to come to this country.

Some say that they should all be kicked out because nobody knows who they are etc.. well if they allow people already here to register for residency etc.. then they would have all the info on them, who they are, where they live, where they work etc..

It's easy to say if those "illegals" werent here none of the people would have been killed, it's sad and very tragic, but there are others who if a natural born citizen wasnt part of a gang or wasnt drinking etc... somebody may not have been killed.

And as for someone who mentioned about the not forcing them to learn their language and to speak English, well I don't know any Citizen that speaks the native language of the Native Americans from whatever area they live in.

I don;t see how "illegal" immigrants are using up welfare and what not, every person I know that is on aid had to provide proof of citizenship. I know about 5 people personally that are on federal aid.

As far as the schools, well the schools are funded by the local taxes, homeowners pay taxes, people who rent supply a source for a building owner to pay taxes on the property, so to say they are getting free education, well unless someone isn't charging them any rent.... And yes I know how schools are funded, there was a big thing here in Chicago not too long ago on how people from a black neighborhood were complaining about the quality of their schools, and how in white areas they have better resources etc... well it came down to the neighborhoods, in the black areas (which is where I'm from, about 75% black 20% hispanic 5% white more or less) there are a lot of empty lots, and there are alot of housing projects, not too many houses means not enough local taxes etc...

The problem is not Illegal immigrants, the problem is Human nature itself, there are black, white and hispanics that kill others wether they are illegal or not. It is as if you are saying Illegal hispanic Immigrants kill people.

Originally posted by Night Star
reply to post by JustCurious1

 

Of course people have been murdered by our own citizens as well. Of course those deaths matter just as much. The difference is that we could have prevented the ones done by illegals! None of those people would be dead now.

Way I see it, everyone is an immigrant here. I don't like lumping together all the immigrants and proclaiming them as dangerous murderers.

That said, we definitely need something done. My husband's father immigrated here from Bermuda in the 60's and they went through years of paperwork and protocol to do it the right way. Everyone needs to immigrate legally.

reply to post by Night Star


Most people lost their jobs because of the economy. I was driving transporting loads of steel untill the steel mill shut down (they are back up but they are not to full capacity) Arcelor Mittal, owned by a foreigner, from India to be exact. They were thinking about completely shutting it down, anyway, most people that now lost their jobs is because of this economy. My father lost his job, and my mom needs meds as well, and they stopped her aid. Now as I stated before, People have to prove their legal status. 2 years ago I believe, I tried to apply for that link card. Odd, I was the only person applying there that had paperwork, all manner of paperwork. Everyone else didn't have anything unless it was folded in their pockets, anyway, I was denied because even though I had my certificate of naturalization, I had to give them an exact date of when I came into this country (I was 11 months old I had no recollection) that and because I needed to give them the exact date of when was the last day of work that I had, (I got paid a percentage of the weight of the steel, so I would only get a report on the weight for the week etc..)

there are alot of American Natural born citizens that abuse the benefits the government provides, and most "illegals" are afraid to get medical help.

The thing is this issues is not as simple as you think, you only look at one side of the story, and in many cases I can see that it is just cloaked racism (but not all). Most people are just misinformed.

In my opinion, I've said this before, this issue is just another divisionary tool TPTB use to keep people against each other.

Originally posted by Majestic Lumen
As someone posted, who owns the earth? who is to say what part of the earth nature/god etc.. gave us is forbidden to some and by whom and on what authority?

No one owned this earth a long time ago. A long time ago people were free to move about to wherever they wanted to live. Since Euro's came and brought with them rules and diseases, and set down rules for all to follow it's been that way since. But now we have laws in place and we live in a different time. They are there for a reason and personally I don't have a problem with enforcing them. Can I just up and immigrate to the UK freely without answering to anyone? No, and neither should anyone be able to cross our borders without doing it the right way. Way I see this is... if you are crossing over illegally your intentions for doing so will be looked on with much question. Come with honor and it might be different. JMHO.