A woman's "right" to have a child

Listen the fact is, she has a right to have a kid. So he don't want to father it...she needs to go. Apparently she has weighed the whole thing, obviously she has money to support the kid, a career, etc. She needs to stop trying to pressure him, file for divorce and move on, it isn't really his move. He should love, honor, and cherish her, but he doesn't that much is obvious (hence my remark about him being a dirtbag). She does have a right to bear children if she wants. And WTH ever said anything about them taking care of the parents later in life. I don't recall ever saying that. I was on the other side...I never wanted kids my partner did, because I loved him I gave him what Gifts I could, the Children that he wanted. I am not even married to him!!! Together for 17 yrs in August. If you love someone you make those compromises. I do love and cherish my boyfriend, and I didn't even take those vows, also I do not resent my children and love them very much.
And if he really loved her he would not dismiss her so easily. If she was stronger she'd simply give him the ultimatum---family or divorce. Neither one is acting very adult at this point. It's more like "I am in control, My way, WHAAAAA!" IMO. Maybe he didn't outwardly manipulate her like I stated it might have gone like this: Him"I dont want any children" But it isn't always WHAT you say but HOW you say it and she picked up that cue and said what she knew he wanted to hear. Sometimes people don't even realize that they are saying something in a certain tone that could be a cue to another person subconciously. Or maybe she really didn't want kids at the beginning, and re-evaluated her life and does now have a different mindset. In that case he still should not just dismiss her, and she shouldn't have to enlist help from peers. They should be adult and talk it out and re-evaluate their lives both seperately and relationship. Maybe they would get somewhere then. I could be wrong but the impression I got from the OP (the feeling or vibe) is what the first thing I stated in this thread. That he's just simply being bullheaded, kind of feeling he's a control freak but I cannot prove this. Just the impression I am picking up, and that's all I can say about that very first post I made. If I am wrong oh well. That's just the impression I got. And that she maybe wasn't straightforward on the onset of the relationship.

The Op also needs to pull him/herself away from the middle of it and let the ones pulling him/her in know that they do not feel like being dragged through their issues, and why they don't want any part in it. But what do I know?

AND I am not going to repeat myself again. I already did several times.

Originally posted by Whiffer Nippets
The guy should run!

As a Child Free female I am disturbed by how much of the responses here seem to negate the man's feelings and promote children.

Some people do not want kids and would not be happy nor effective as parents.

Respect their choice.

Star for you! You seem to have thought about the situation more than most people have in this thread, in addition to not investing your own personal emotions/bias into it. I feel it is a woman's right to have a child if she wishes, but it is not her right in any way to pressure an unwilling partner to aid in her execution of that right.

Originally posted by ldyserenity
He should love, honor, and cherish her, but he doesn't that much is obvious (hence my remark about him being a dirtbag). ...I never wanted kids my partner did, because I loved him I gave him what Gifts I could, the Children that he wanted. I am not even married to him!!! Together for 17 yrs in August. If you love someone you make those compromises. I do love and cherish my boyfriend, and I didn't even take those vows, also I do not resent my children and love them very much.
And if he really loved her he would not dismiss her so easily. If she was stronger she'd simply give him the ultimatum---family or divorce. Neither one is acting very adult at this point. It's more like "I am in control, My way, WHAAAAA!" IMO. Maybe he didn't outwardly manipulate her like I stated it might have gone like this: Him"I dont want any children" But it isn't always WHAT you say but HOW you say it and she picked up that cue and said what she knew he wanted to hear. Sometimes people don't even realize that they are saying something in a certain tone that could be a cue to another person subconciously. ...They should be adult and talk it out and re-evaluate their lives both seperately and relationship. Maybe they would get somewhere then. I could be wrong but the impression I got from the OP (the feeling or vibe) is what the first thing I stated in this thread. That he's just simply being bullheaded, kind of feeling he's a control freak but I cannot prove this. Just the impression I am picking up, and that's all I can say about that very first post I made. If I am wrong oh well. That's just the impression I got. And that she maybe wasn't straightforward on the onset of the relationship.

He should love, honor, and cherish her, but having a child when you are not comfortable or prepared to do so is not the way to go about it. We now learn the man already has children from a different woman, so he has been through it before and knows what it entails more than she probably does. There goes the idea that he might change his mind and be happier once she has the baby. From his point of view it's probably "been there, done that, not again" She should love, honor, and cherish him enough to respect that.

A child is not a "gift" to "give" someone. It is an ongoing, life long project to form and raise a human being, that both partners should equally desire to, and be prepared to take part in. Nor should a child be the result of a compromise. When you create a life, that life should come before you or anyone else, be the most important thing in the universe. The woman's desire to have a child means nothing compared to the right of a child to have two equally committed and loving parents. If the man knows he can't fulfill that commitment it's not only his right, but his DUTY to NOT have a child.

"They should be adult and talk it out and re-evaluate their lives both seperately and relationship"

I think the man is being very adult about it. What happened in your life to give you the idea anytime a man is expressing his feelings or rights it's just him being a controlling, bullheaded, manipulative dirtbag? Every negative thing you've said about the man could be said about the woman, and actually with the facts given there is more proof that these things would actually be true about the woman. But am I going to accuse her of that? No, because they are both entitled to their own way of life, and if their way of life doesn't jive they shouldn't be together. It's nobody's fault IMHO, but if you must point fingers (which you seem to like doing) remember she is the one that changed her mind.

Originally posted by Merigold
A few weeks ago I got pregnant. I was dismayed, but somehow I was also euphoric. We discussed termination and he indicated that he wanted me to terminate. I would not go through with it without his support, so we went to bed, our decision made.. next day he tells me that he LOVES ME and that he felt that I would regret a termination, and that he loved me enough to stand by me and be a father. Yes it would be hard, yes we would not be going on holidays, or dinner parties ( I know this sounds selfish..but this is the reality of our lives..we have each other, and full and fulfilling lives without children, having them would CHANGE our lives)..but together, and because we love each other deeply, he would stand by me.

When you love someone, sometimes you sacrifice your own wants/needs/desires/ to make them happy. Because their happiness adds to your own. I have never loved him more then that day he sacrificed his own wants for me.

Sadly, a few days later I miscarried, he stood by me every step of the way. Turns out my uterus will probably never carry a child to term, additionally my eggs are weak, so the possibility of getting pregnant again are slim without intervention . I was gutted, as was he as we had accepted it was going to happen and were making the best of it. So now we leave up to fate, we continue our lives and if it happens it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't.

I guess what I am trying to say is, do not underestimate the biology behind a woman's "need" to have a child. It is strong and compulsive.
Secondly, the advice for the man in the OPs scenario to dump his wife and run, is wrong. If you love someone, your needs and desires can sometimes take a backseat to someone else's. Isn't love all about giving...?

My heart goes out to for your situation, and I truly am sorry to had to experience such a thing. It's good to see that some men out there, even when their first reaction is to run away from the problem, can actually stand up and take responsibility for their actions.

It gets more complicated than the idea of the original post when the baby has already been conceived unplanned. In that case I think it's totally the woman's right to decide to keep or abort the child, as it's her body until the child is born. If a man doesn't want to give that "control" over to a woman than he should do everything in his power to not get one pregnant. I can't stand men that try to get their girlfriends/wives to abort a child simply because they were being irresponsible. It's such a cop-out to leave it up to a woman to take birth control, and then pressure her into an abortion if she gets pregnant. The possibility is always there, and he should be ready to deal with any outcome the second he takes it out of his pants. And those are words coming from a man's mouth (or I guess fingers in this case )

" Yes it would be hard, yes we would not be going on holidays, or dinner parties ( I know this sounds selfish..but this is the reality of our lives..we have each other, and full and fulfilling lives without children, having them would CHANGE our lives)"

I don't find that selfish at all, I think it's the opposite. What's actually selfish is couples that want kids just to have kids, knowing that they are still going to put themselves above the need/want of the child. That's why I personally don't want children, as I know I'm not willing to make the sacrifices that would have to be made, and it wouldn't be fair to my son/daughter or even my wife.

I wish you luck and happiness!

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


Compassion is great. And it is paving the way, unfortunatly, it is not a compromise. They are a great couple. She loves the kids he has now, just... Well.. the biological clock ticks. This is really the only subject they are divided on. Being as close to them as I have been and they being together for a long time, it's hard to see them at dire odds about it

reply to post by arbitrarygeneraiist


And that is their future?

ya see, there is thing thing called birth control...
women can use it if they chose not to have a child
men can use it if they chose not to have a child.
men cannot make a women use it, or vice versa really...
if you don't want to have a child, it is up to you to take the measures needed to prevent it!!
and your partner shouldn't have any right to force you to use or not use it....
they can only chose not to have the intimate relationship that causes pregnancy to begin with...or find some fool to have unprotected sex with them...

When putting one's self in a competition with 4.6 Billion years of instinct, one should probably have a healthy respect for one's opponent possession of an excellent track record for winning.

reply to post by Jkd Up


The west is a social matriarchy, so women think they are entitled to everything while men are entitled to nothing.
Women get rights while men get responsibility. After the White Knights and Mangina's begin to die out and become fewer and fewer the world is going to be an interesting place.

Ah, you are another man who is oppressed by not being allowed to oppress women. You've been denied by law your "natural right" to legally make women into chattel. I feel for you man. Getting over a sense of God Like Entitlement must be real tough. Worse than meth.

Wow! Well, Umm... I wasn't realling thinking that the conversation would go this low. I do not think that women are lower than a man, but I have experianced a woman trying to make me feel inferior. It does seem that woman's lib is a little more powerful than I. Curious how chick flix alway have the man falling over himself to proove himself to a woman when she has to be "taken the way she is". But that is a story for another threat I had started.

Woman are just as caapible as men... But ARE better at controlling men than vice versa.

Originally posted by korathin
reply to post by Jkd Up

 

The west is a social matriarchy, so women think they are entitled to everything while men are entitled to nothing.
Women get rights while men get responsibility. After the White Knights and Mangina's begin to die out and become fewer and fewer the world is going to be an interesting place.

It would appear, but looks can be decieving.


As far as the White Knight, I'm gona live forever cos the good die young. Good guys attract women, but then it appears that every one I was being the White Knight to tried to change or manipulate me. But again, that is a personal experiance.

Originally posted by Aeons
Ah, you are another man who is oppressed by not being allowed to oppress women. You've been denied by law your "natural right" to legally make women into chattel. I feel for you man. Getting over a sense of God Like Entitlement must be real tough. Worse than meth.

We are all human beings, I can't help it that the "radical" notion of feminism these last 20-30 years has been that "boy's and men aren't human beings too". You can lie and twist everything around but it doesn't change the fact's about our society.

We live in an oppressive social matriarchy, the first line of evidence is that women maintain(for the most part) a type of pervasive all girls club group think akin to that of how guy's behave in truly patriarchal countries in the middle east.

And if denying women their "right" to enslave men and boy's oppresses them, maybe they should be oppressed. Because if a person requires the constant subjugation of others in order to be "free", what right to freedom do they really have? You can't justify enslaving those who can be free on their own accord for the benefit of those who can't.

I am a Gen Y guy. All male entitlements and privileges did not exist for my generation of males(the only real privilege that exists for the younger generations is female privilege and economic privilege). The last bit of male privilege died sometime as Gen X was in their teens.

Baby-Boomer(I so want to use a different term for those louts) males are at this point confusing gendered privilege for economic privilege because of the gendered head start they got as a result of male privilege that existed when they where children. And they use that illusion to justify their chauvinism which just makes everything a more so headache for Gen Y males(I cut Gen X in half between the white knights and manginas, I know their not all self haters but it is just safer to assume and easier to plan out).

As the Boomers die out and Gen X begins to fade women will be in for a very, very rude awakening. Because of the brutal discrimination most Gen Y males received(look up the military's worries that most Gen Y males are either physically or mentally unfit), women will have no choice but to pick up the slack.
It is going to be an amusing century to say the least. Seeing women having to deal with the responsibility of traditionally male gender role responsibilities. Can you say "Front line infantry!"? hehe

reply to post by Jkd Up


It sounds as though she is just trying to fulfill her desire to meet her biological need. I do agree that she shouldn't have her friends pressure her mate about the idea of having a child. At least she hasn't stopped taking her birth control in order to secretly fulfill her desire- so I have to give her props for that. Why doesn't the gentleman want children? I feel that if you love someone and by giving her a child it would make her happy; then he should be selfless and do so. That being said, If for some reason he doesn't want children because he has no desire to or he feels that he would not be a good dad then he should just cut his losses and move on. That would allow both of them the potential to find a mate that is equally yoked.

reply to post by korathin


You aren't allowed to work? You aren't allowed to play? You aren't allowed to go to school? You get the bones when women get the meat? You married off at 9? Are you denied health care? Human rights? A bank account?

You're a WUSS. You're oppressed by COMPETITION, because you can't bring it. Take your bat and go home.

reply to post by Aeons


If you saw what females have done to my life, you would not even post your anti male stuff.

Females are all sweetness and oh they never kill any innocent person, lol. Yep right.

Originally posted by andy1033
reply to post by Aeons

 

If you saw what females have done to my life, you would not even post your anti male stuff.

Females are all sweetness and oh they never kill any innocent person, lol. Yep right.

You're oppresed by everyone. The perpetual victim, racing to the bottom.

Weak.

Wow!!! Feminism at its finest! I for one dont mind if a women wants equality. I believe we all should live,and work,and play on an equal field.

Heres a article I posted earlier. Play what card you want to play,it does hold some tidbits of info,I think you will find it interesting.
Excerpt:
Winning men's active support for the ERA may be easier today. During recent years, men's consciousness about their own issues has been raised substantially and the momentum is upward. Men are growing aware of how the narrow gender-role conditioning they receive during society's indoctrination of them to become protectors and providers negatively affects both their emotional and physical health. They learn that, on average, men not only live 7 years less than women, but men's quality of life is reduced in trying to live up to this restrictive gender role.

Men are grieving, publicly and privately, for the loss of their fathers and their distance from their own children. They are learning how welfare rules and our father-negative "family" courts separate caring fathers from their children. They are dismayed by the contribution that fatherless families have to the increase in homeless and runaway children, and to teenage suicide, academic failure, drug abuse, violence and unwed pregnancy.

At the same time that women have control over their parenthood through abortion or adoption, men's reproductive rights are either ignored or condescendingly dismissed. Men lack the "right to choose" legal fatherhood, but have the responsibility of financial support. Further, men have no corresponding right to either custody or noncustodial access to their children.

Gaining Equal Rights for Men

Originally posted by Aeons
reply to post by korathin

 

You aren't allowed to work? You aren't allowed to play? You aren't allowed to go to school? You get the bones when women get the meat? You married off at 9? Are you denied health care? Human rights? A bank account?

You're a WUSS. You're oppressed by COMPETITION, because you can't bring it. Take your bat and go home.

Yawn, open up a history book. It was women who chased other women out of job's because they felt it stole from their family. You should really look up the women's rights movement of the 1800's(Mothers of the Republic) that fought for all those backwards policies regarding women. As per bank account it was viewed like this: Women weren't responsible for their actions, any debt incurred by a woman her husband or male relatives could be held liable for. Play... like how recesses is being banned in most schools in favor of feminist indoctrination?

Bones and meat? Interesting feminist mythos, please provide proof for such an outlandish statement. Education.. hmm do you call having to deal with professors ranting and raving about the patriarchy as an education? You really should look up the blue eyed-brown eyed experiment. Because that experiment has been implemented in a gendered way for the last 20 years by the female majority, feminist educational staff.

Another Yawn... it ain't competition when the game is rigged. It is like saying that in the last NYC marathon when a woman won she won because she out-competed her male counterparts, as you fail to mention the substantial head-start female contestants got.

P.S name one state(other than Utah, and in all fairness Mormons, granted is a male led religion but the vast majority of initial converts, the people that empowered that "religion" where women) where it is acceptable for a 9 year old girl to be violated in let alone forced to marry at that age.

Human rights? Like the right to your home, the right to vote(fall a month behind because you lost your job and in a few states they keep the guy from voting),the right to be free of slavery and persecution? Hmm, your right guy's don't face.. ohh wait we do.

You can stay in denial land all you want but that doesn't change the sheer level of gendered female privilege that women have. It is bad enough for a person to have privilege that originates from a discriminatory fashion but what makes it worse is that women don't have a level of responsibility equal to their level of privilege in society for being women.

Nor does it change the outright discrimination that hundreds of thousands of male students face at the hand of a female dominated social institution.

Congratulations, women have become the 18th-19th century white man. Just watch out for the 20th century role it can be a real pain owning up to mistakes committed before you where even born.

Originally posted by sonnny1
Wow!!! Feminism at its finest! I for one dont mind if a women wants equality. I believe we all should live,and work,and play on an equal field.

Heres a article I posted earlier. Play what card you want to play,it does hold some tidbits of info,I think you will find it interesting.
Excerpt:
Winning men's active support for the ERA may be easier today. During recent years, men's consciousness about their own issues has been raised substantially and the momentum is upward. Men are growing aware of how the narrow gender-role conditioning they receive during society's indoctrination of them to become protectors and providers negatively affects both their emotional and physical health. They learn that, on average, men not only live 7 years less than women, but men's quality of life is reduced in trying to live up to this restrictive gender role.

Men are grieving, publicly and privately, for the loss of their fathers and their distance from their own children. They are learning how welfare rules and our father-negative "family" courts separate caring fathers from their children. They are dismayed by the contribution that fatherless families have to the increase in homeless and runaway children, and to teenage suicide, academic failure, drug abuse, violence and unwed pregnancy.

At the same time that women have control over their parenthood through abortion or adoption, men's reproductive rights are either ignored or condescendingly dismissed. Men lack the "right to choose" legal fatherhood, but have the responsibility of financial support. Further, men have no corresponding right to either custody or noncustodial access to their children.

Gaining Equal Rights for Men

I fear your words, how ever well put will fall on deaf years. We are stuck in a pattern similar to the bigotry and intolerance that was rampant in the early 1900's. The most we can do is never surrender and never back down in the face of bigotry, ignorance or intolerance. And we must never forget. It is bad enough that we are stuck living in this, but to forgive and forget would invite horrors against future generations.

Good God spoiled men are SO unattractive. Yucky.

Well, this thread has taken a pretty sharp turn. I'd like to hang on to see where this goes.

My understanding is that women's power and influence have increased to a position of superiority in the fields of the family and education. They're also gaining power in corporations, politics, churches, and the various media.

The fear among men may be that, like the drunk who fell off the horse on one side, we may be falling off on the opposite side. So, how do we find the correct middle? Or from my point of view, why is this a male/female issue instead of a human rights one? Why fund scholarships for needy females instead of needy people, etc?