Can science prove this???....

Is GOD god real? hmmm... Is God not real? hmmm... those lead me to ask Real in what sense?. Is God Made of matter? Is God an spirit? Is God a Force? Is God an Energy?

God is real for sure in the hearts and minds of the people that believe in him/her/it. No, how can we say that the Egyptian Gods are fake? Were they maybe not ancient space travelers that to the Egyptians seemed like miracles? Well, you would have to prove to me that that is not so. You cannot, because we cannot see from the Egyptians eyes, or hear from their ears, or experience first hand their experiences. Now, there is only one way to solve that. It would be for an alien to come from the sky and say "we were the Gods". Now, that will never happen. Since there is no one that can claim otherwise, then there is no against notion.

Let`s move that over the the CHRISTIAN God that we are talking about in here. Does he exist. Well, we have a book written thousands of years ago. Who is around with first-hand knowledge to say whether this was a great work of fiction, or these miracles were performed by space travelers now mistaken for Gods, or if this was God itself. Well, the only way we will get an answer is if God came down to us to tell us. But, God will certainly not do that... Also, if there is really no God, then there is no God to tell us. Well, the point goes to show that this cannot be proven or disproven either way.

Now, I have a question: If God appeared to you out of thin air. He suddenly appeared from no where and told you that he was real. He looked like you would expect him to. He made water into wine with the wave of a finger and then disappeared. Would you know for SURE if it was God or someone with an advanced technical capability? Can water molecules be changed to wine molecules? Can teletransportation be achieved? To us, these would be miracles in todays world, but in 5000 years from now, they may be a daily usage. So, who knows if what people wrote are real or fake.

God Exists in our hearts and mind. I am talking about ANY God now. I am talking about our drive to live and live good lives.

Who really cares? If god exists or not is not a question that I feel is that important. If God was proven to be real, it would not change my view on life. If God was proven fake, it still would not devalue life. Afterall, in REALITY, we are a bunch of molecules, with chemicals and energy flowing through us. We are able to have thoughts and reason, this is a miracle to me. Whether the conscience is a chemical reaction or a spiritual one, does not matter. The energy that drives us is the truth. We will all find out when we die....... Till then, I will enjoy this wonderful things called life.

[edit on 16-10-2004 by JCMinJapan]

Who can say that it is whether God or chaos that controls all of the systems at once.

with the present state of affairs in this world I am definatly leaning towards
CHAOS.

Originally posted by AD5673
God can not be disproved because he is real. You can disprove the other Egyptian, Greek, Roman, Mesopotamian gods first of all by common sense, secondly by science. How are you going to disprove the Christian God? The Bible says he created everything. Once you have actual, factual proof that it was not created by God, and God isnt real then ill belive you. So far there isnt an explonation can can truly disproof that God did not create the universe. And if there was that would mean he's not real. (But he is).
P.S: This should be move to the religious forum.

[edit on 12-7-2004 by AD5673]

Your view has one major flaw in logic that I can see. The Egytians believed their dieties to be real just as you believe your diety to be. There is not difference in belief. The only difference is time. Modern man has "proven" that these dieties do not exist but it took time to do so. Given time I believe scientists can give themselves the delusion that they have disproven just about anything.

Let's play a little game of what if.

What if the Egyptian dieties do exist?
What if they, instead of actively controlling their offices of life, just set the proverbial ball rolling?

If these conditions are true, then science has done nothing to disprove the Egyptian dieties. They have simply disproven one interpretation of them.

Those gods weren't eliminated; they just aren't needed anymore. Once we figured out "oh, stuff melts, so the nile floods!", we didn't need that Water God to explain it anymore, so he (she?) vanished. Which is why the Christian god (and the gods of the other major religions) will never be disproved, or vanish; people need him/them. They don't want to feel like they're alone in the universe; they don't want to have come out of nowhere, or whatever the current alternative is. People are afraid to be alone; No man wants to be an island. So, until we can all be together, and keep each other company, and find a reasonable solution to the 'where did we come from' question, the "ultimate" gods will be necessary.

For the record, I don't believe in any gods. Though the tenets of Christian morality I agree with, for the most part.

I think can science can disprove not only Christian gods, but also other gods.

For example, if we find good evidence that Jesus didn't exist, then we could have an answer to your problem. But the chances of that happening are very low. Not only that, many people, won't accept that they believed in something so wrong for so long a time, instead they will turn a blind eye towards the evidence.

So to answer your question in three worlds: Possible, not probable.

The Christian God is already been disproved in my opinion. Any religion that preaches the only way to God is thru a text that many people of the world may never even get to read, is not true. Any religion that preaches certain people are evil and doomed to hell, yet they are created that way, is not true. Why would God bother making people one way, then condemning them for acting the way he created them? Why would God condemn some people to hell simply because they will never have access to the Bible?

That's pretty much common sense to me. Like I said before, there may be a God, but he is not the God of Christianity, or Buddhism, or any other MAN-MADE religion.

Also -- maybe someone made this point already -- when the Bible says that God took one rib from Adam to make Eve, yet both males and females have the same number of ribs, that in and of itself is enough to make me go at the Bible. But apparently when you have such blind faith in something, you'll find anyway to justify it being true.

And another point I just thought of:

Remember that the burden of proof rests on the believers. It's not the un-believer's job to prove that it doesn't exist; it's the believer's job to prove that it does. Or else no one can reasonably be expected to just swarm over. In the olden days, people accepted Christianity and Judaism and the other religions because they seemed like the best explanation. We're getting more plausible explanations, so it's up to us to decide which one is write, not which ones are wrong.

I believe that the Easter Bunny is God. Can you disprove that? No, of course you cant. Its impossible to disprove a negative.
I could say that Jesus molested goats. Even though there is no evidence to support my claim, you still couldnt DISPROVE my claim. Hey, you werent with him for every second of his 32 years on earth, therefore, you cant be 100% sure that he didnt tickle a goat at some point, can you? Pretty much impossible to disprove huh?
Once you try to disprove a negative, the burden of proof becomes impossibly high.

Ok, anyways what is up with the Easter Bunny laying eggs!???
Can anyone discprove that the Easter Bunny did not lay eggs?

I never liked the idea of big zombie jesus bunny breaking into my house to leave me hard-boiled eggs and suspicious candy...

Main thing is, who created the universe? Ya Ya, say the big bang, but who created the atoms and molecules involved in the big bang?

Also logically speaking, there were 140,000 prophets, all claiming to be talked to by God. Are you sayin that 140,000 people are all nuts? It just does not make sense if you do.

However, I would like your view on why he does not exist, and please dont come up wit the arguement, "i havent talked to him" "why does he let us die" blah blah.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
The Christian God is already been disproved in my opinion. Any religion that preaches the only way to God is thru a text that many people of the world may never even get to read, is not true. Any religion that preaches certain people are evil and doomed to hell, yet they are created that way, is not true. Why would God bother making people one way, then condemning them for acting the way he created them? Why would God condemn some people to hell simply because they will never have access to the Bible?

That's pretty much common sense to me. Like I said before, there may be a God, but he is not the God of Christianity, or Buddhism, or any other MAN-MADE religion.

Hi W_Hamilton,

I think I understand your objections and reasoning here. I am a follower of Jesus and often find myself wishing things were different because the harshness of the Biblical scenarios is so calamitous. I'll try here to give a few clarifications that may help. I don't have the exact Biblical references in my head, but could look them up if need be.

The first critical principle to understand is that God created the mankind to have a free-will choice to love and serve Him or not. The reason is that God know that love back to Him can only occur by choice - otherwise, it is not love, but enslavement.

When Adam and Eve were in the garden (I think the garden was located in a valley 1/2 way between the city of Tabriz and the Caspian sea in Northern Iran) , they could do pretty much anything they wanted and there would be no sin, no rebellion against God. God placed the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil in the garden as a measure that His creation was choosing to obey Him and care about what God wanted by simply not eating from that tree. So 99% is everything they do is fine, great, have fun!

Meanwhile, previously, one of only a few Archangels, named Lucifer, called the "Son of the Morning", greatly resented that man was created and inserted in God's heirarchy above the ranks of angels and just below God Himself. Everyone resents a demotion and Lucifer was certainly no exception. Lucifer and 1/3 of all the angels rebelled against the Lord and became the opposing force, called "demons." It was Lucifer himself, then called Satan, who took the form of a snake and tempted Eve with the fruit of the tree (traditionally, an apple, but I don't think anyone knows for sure).

When Adam & Eve sinned by eating from that tree, they're obeying of Satan placed them under the lordship of Satan himself, inheriting a sinful nature for all future generations. The glorified form of Man that could stand before God in sinless, perfect state came off of the man and a sinful, selfish nature was left. The Bible is clear that "for Him who knows what is right and does not do it, to him it is sin." The knowledge of Good and Evil as their eyes were opened meant that they could no longer stand in front of God. In that sense, all men, including me, are declared evil because, generationally, we were born into a sin state passed down from Adam and Eve.

God did not create us as sinful. He created us as perfect, eternal, and glorious, just above the angels and just below God Himself. It is we, mankind, that chose to use our freewill to rebel against God and deliver ourselves over to the control and nature of Evil.

Man, in our sin nature, cannot look upon God's face and live. We, in our limited minds, often greatly underestimate the power of God's Perfection, Holiness, and Justice. Man was banished from the Garden to live and toil on the earth partly as justice, but also as a grace to them so that Adam and Eve would not live eternally in that sinful state under the earthly lordship of Satan after they had eaten from the Tree of Life/Immortality.

The things that are not completely understood is why Satan was given control of the earth after his rebellion. But clearly he was since he had the authority to tempt Jesus with the "whole world" if Jesus would worship Satan (see Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)

After this came these complicated laws (Deuteronomy, Leviticus, etc) that allow man some interface with God. The cleansing, sacrifices, defiling, etc were the things man must do in our sin state in order to have any contact with an omniscient God at all. God had always foreseen and decreed from the book of Job on that there would someday be a mediator between God and Man, who is Jesus Christ, who would make one perfect, complete sacrifice for sin of all mankind for all time and buy back from Satan the right to own/control the people of the earth. When we turn to Jesus and ask Him into our lives and souls, a Holy Spirit comes into us and we are marked as Jesus's servant for ever.

By definition, Religion is a system of beliefs and practices to try to reach God. What I am talking about is what Jesus did to reach down to me because I could not do anything to reach Him. No believers have anything to boast about at all, but that Jesus did it all for me (and you) to be redeemed from the devil's control.

What I am talking about is a relationship with Jesus. There are no deeds, works, anything about us that make us valuable or more holy to Jesus. It is that Jesus chose us and worked on us to lead us to Him.

We are taken through experiences as part of our relationship. Some very difficult, some victories, all teaching us to become more like Christ Himself. In the past few years, I have learned a much greater compassion for people, having gone through some God-ordained job, relationship, and health issues. No one has greater compassion for people than Jesus. Once we have the Holy Spirit in our souls, it is God who chooses to look at us through the perfection filter of that Spirit and sees us as Holy and able to come before Him in prayer. When God speaks to me, the words hit my mind and feel like they hit my chest at the same time - it's as though my spirit confirms the words that came in to my mind as being from the Lord Himself. This does not happen to me as often as with other believers, but it has happened often enough to recognize the feeling. Wow! Now that's a rush!

God asks us to ask for Jesus in our lives to help and teach us and guide our lives because He still values only love freely given. We still must choose Him. He will not force Himself on us. He, through the face of Jesus, is humble and meek of heart to those who earnestly seek Him.

There is a veil over this world where we do not see into the spirit realm. We do know from the book of Ephesians that we fight agaiinst the fallen angels and their influence unwary people who do not believe that Satan even exists (Satan's best weapon).

The war that Satan wages against mankind is to get as many people with him in Hell as possible. Satan is angry that God created mankind above him in the heirarchy and deceives, kills, and destroys, and twists men's minds to believe what he wants them to to show God that God made the wrong choice in choosing to love and redeem man. God allows Satan some
authority to twist and persecute people to get them to rebel against God further, to convince man that God is a liar. etc.

If we could see into Hell and into Heaven and what they mean at the judgement, a few would still choose Hell out of a deep seated conditioned hatred of God. But there is a veil over the eyes of all in the world (except when the Lord allows an occasional peek through a vision or dream) that still requires people to step out on a limb to call upon Him for help and guidance. It still has to be our choice to seek Him. In the end, we are responsible for our choices according to what revelation of Jesus we have had.

There are some who even know Jesus and God are real and still choose to rebel against Them their entire lives. God will not force people to go to Heaven who hate Him. But, life without God in eternity means we fall under the control of Satan himself without the restraining power of Holy Spirit in all believers in the world. He will get to torment all who choose this path for all eternity and everyone who chooses this path will live to regret it, but there will be no second chance to choose Jesus.

Jesus has delayed His return to the earth in His plan to allow time for believers to reach native tribes all over the world. With computers, bible translation into new languages is now happening at an unprecedented rate. When God the father and Jesus determine that the time for end has come, he says that all will have had sufficient revelation to choose God so that no one will have an excuse at the judgement. We will be held responsible to the degree of revelation we have had in our lives. Those children too young to know about good and evil (don't know the exact age) are with Jesus in heaven (including all aborted babies) since they are under the "age of accountability."

To believe in Jesus and follow Him may cost the believer a lot in this life. It has cost me a lot. I would have probably been more successful in the world had I not been a believer, but there are more important spiritual and character issues that Jesus deals with in order to conform us to His image.
At the end of my life, I believe I will have found this tradeoff more than worth it even if it hurts now.

Originally posted by Solasis
I never liked the idea of big zombie jesus bunny breaking into my house to leave me hard-boiled eggs and suspicious candy...

After reading the post once again, i cant help but notice how off topic the has gone...Why cant we have a seriuos debate between religion and science. Put all ego's aside and draw out the basic facts. Why do ppl always have to just promote a visous cycle of "No...this is wrong becasue i beleive so and thats it"....I realize this is kinda a limitless discussion, seeing as how i dont think it will be settled here once and for all, but i am just interested in having a guidline or chart, or two columns with each side outlayingthere proofs/evidence, reason. THis out of shear curiosity of religion, being a science oriented person. I am trying to get a better understanding, for myself, of both sides, not to tug ppl towards science based on certain facts.

Ok first of all cristians say god created the universe in 7 days. Well thats simply not true, because the universe is'nt done being created. Its expanding and galaxies are being born and destroyed all the time. Secondly, alota ppl dont know this, but in the original language that the bible was written in, the word they translated to be god is acually a plural form of god. Even in the translated version it says "we will make him in our image." When you look at all the stories of the bible, you can trace virtually all of them back to older mythologies, and u can trace thoughs mythologies back to the old sumerian texts which are 4000 years older than the bible. Why is it that if this so called god created the whole universe, that there is no talk about other ppl on other planets, just us here on earth. Also that story where "god" kills that one guys whole family and dose all that horrable stuff to that guy, JUST TO PROVE A POINT TO SANTIN. That dont sound like a god to me. What kind of god is so jelus that he wants u to worship him and only him. A "god" would not care if you worshiped him or not, as long as you are a good person. People back 2000 years ago have a different understanding then what we have. What they would call daemons or angels coming from the "heavens" is probly alot different than what we would call them. When you really sit down and think about it, its acually pretty rediculas stuff. Granted alota the stuff in the old testement is metaphorical for acually historic events, the "god" in the bible sometimes acts too much like a selfish alien being who demands to be worshiped. Where was god on sept. 11? Where was god during the holocost? Where was god during slavery? Shoot where was god last week when I was try'n to get laid? Im sry, ppl need to realize that theres no invisable man in the sky whos "mak'n a list and check'n it twice" and gona find out if you where notty or nice, and send you to "hell" or "heaven" in 100's of years from now ppl will be laughing at christians muslims and jews, the same way we laugh at the ppl back in the ancient times who worshiped saturn, or zeus. And they'll be some new relgion that ignorant ppl r BLINDLY following and being fed to from the time they leave the womb. Unless of corse we brake the chain now, and rely on facts and not a guy who was born from a virgin mother.

Originally posted by LuDaCrIs

Originally posted by Solasis
I never liked the idea of big zombie jesus bunny breaking into my house to leave me hard-boiled eggs and suspicious candy...

After reading the post once again, i cant help but notice how off topic the has gone...Why cant we have a seriuos debate between religion and science. Put all ego's aside and draw out the basic facts. Why do ppl always have to just promote a visous cycle of "No...this is wrong becasue i beleive so and thats it"....I realize this is kinda a limitless discussion, seeing as how i dont think it will be settled here once and for all, but i am just interested in having a guidline or chart, or two columns with each side outlayingthere proofs/evidence, reason. THis out of shear curiosity of religion, being a science oriented person. I am trying to get a better understanding, for myself, of both sides, not to tug ppl towards science based on certain facts.

Holy crap, lighten up. I wasn't criticizing a religion, I was making a joke about the presentation of a religion.

Originally posted by faiz
Main thing is, who created the universe? Ya Ya, say the big bang, but who created the atoms and molecules involved in the big bang?

Also logically speaking, there were 140,000 prophets, all claiming to be talked to by God. Are you sayin that 140,000 people are all nuts? It just does not make sense if you do.

However, I would like your view on why he does not exist, and please dont come up wit the arguement, "i havent talked to him" "why does he let us die" blah blah.

Sounds like experience is getting to you my friend . I know it's the same old arguments but don't give up the good fight. If you post these questions enough, they may start the search for the answers.

Originally posted by surfup
For example, if we find good evidence that Jesus didn't exist, then we could have an answer to your problem. But the chances of that happening are very low.

Actually, you can't prove a negative. However, I should point out that outside of the Bible there is no evidence that Jesus exists. There are no records of a possible uprising in Israel at that time, no records of his execution, no records from the people of the time. The oldest records are heresay evidence (as in Tacitus' "I heard from someone who was told by a Christian that this man named Jesus lived...")

So... on the contrary, there is no evidence that he existed.

That was a nice explanation managerie, but you didn't really answer my question. You believe in all the other aspects of the Bible. Well, the Bible said that God took one rib from Adam to make Eve. Men have the exact same number of ribs as women. Of course it was a nice tale at the time, since most humans would not have known any different. But now we have the technology, and we know that that part of the Bible just isn't true.

Does the Bible mention the dinosaurs? Around the time the Bible was written, humans probably had no clue that dinosaurs even existed. If God created the Earth and then humans in seven days, well uh, that's essentially saying that humans have been around all of earth's existence. We know that to be false.

I don't know how someone can believe in, much less base your life around, something written simply by another fellow human thousands of years ago, which has since had parts disproven by science.