The teachings of Christ are logically, intelligently, undeniably the Truth. Test it!

Re Vicky32

You wrote:

["Where did you get that idea from? What direct followers of John? I for one have never heard of them..."]



Google G.R.S. Mead and/or the 'Ginza' (sometimes Genza), and you'll find information about this, if you're interested.

I don't give you any specific link, because I believe in peoples' rights to choose between available information on any subject without doctrinal manipulation of 'source' selection/approval.

If you don't find anything useful I'll help you by U2U.

Re Cosmic. Artifact

You wrote:

["I believe there are some who look at things too linearly when discussing the Bible texts and meanings, language can have alot to do with it."]


To take the language perspective first; this is something I have pointed out to you on several occasions. It would be recommendable, if you would follow up your own and my suggestion on the subject, ..... manifested in your own posts.

As to 'discussing bible texts and meanings' the general category 'christianity' has a number of non-identical bibles and presenetly 34.000 official interpretations of said bibles.

Some interpretations are literal, some are literal-literal, some are literal , but need symbolic understanding. Some interpretations are mainly based on chosen passages or 'the bible as a whole', some interpretations find a core-message and cherry-pick from that. Some interpretations acknowledge the actual influence and consequent human error-factor in writing down the bible, while others think, that the bible is the direct and error-free words of 'god'.

Then some bible-interpretators have on occasion added some 'supportive' doctrinal points of their own, such as the trinity doctrine, to help in interpretation.

Then some interpretators stress the importance of NT, through the use of pauline doctrine on the new covenant, while others still use OT to a high degree.

And ofcourse there's the general dichotomy between deductional logic ('linear reasoning')/science and whatever interpretation methodology one of the 34.000 christianities uses.

A clearly defined platform and precise language is a MUST in this multitude of options.

Originally posted by bogomil
Now you're getting stubborn. The 'god'-part is no problem with me, as it's private, and when applied your compassion-way possibly can't be interfering with anyone negatively. I could accept the 'neighbour'-part, if it could be reformulated into something without loopholes.But we've been there already.

Neighbor is everyone outside your own body. Just providing that for others who may be watching the conversation.

Originally posted by bogomil
While the bible ofcourse contains worthwhile elements, I do not acknowledge it as a source of 'truth', especially not on a doctrinal basis with circle-argumentation.

My friend all things expressed by Man are containers of truth. It is the truth of the man making the expression. If you judge one Man's expression of truth, then you only cause your own to be so judged.

We should not build such walls between us my friend. We are Brothers, equal before God. That is loving.

Originally posted by bogomil
With the reservation, that 'god' can mean practically anything, I'll momentarily let down my guard on this point and answer: "That's exactly why I don't want any book, doctrine or holy-bubble attitude restrict my approach to a possible ultimate reality".

One does not need a book to love one another. Love one another and you will have done the teachings of every sage, prophet, and Wiseman.

Originally posted by bogomil
I have a little hobbyhorse of mine. The epistemology of cosmogony and cosmology. I can point out several (for me) more attractive 'maps' than the one you presented.

I have not presented a cosmological map as yet my friend. I merely defended the right of another to formulate his own based on his observable evidence at the time. I would defend your as well even if it was that existence was nothing more than a bowl of jello.

Originally posted by bogomil
Again, this 'god'-terminology doesn't sit well with me. But yes, there's much to be found on the 'inside'; very much. Unfortunately also the human individual's own confusion, self-righteousness and mental laziness. Before finding any 'god' in there, even more so describe this to the world, we need some heavy inner mental springcleaning.

So much judgement and not enough understanding here my friend. One man's confusion is another's understanding. The spring cleaning you mention are the judgements we must sweep away.

Originally posted by bogomil
Nope, we already live in a universe with two different functional systems: Cosmos and chaos. The outcoming mess is directly associated to this order/non-order basis.

Where is this chaos? I have not seen any chaos. Can you show me chaos?

Originally posted by bogomil
If you can demonstrate that, you'll get a Nobel-prize next time.

When man would not use such knowledge to dominate one another, then it will be revealed. Who needs a Noble prize anyway?

Originally posted by bogomil
I KNOW, that you have a keen intellect, so why do you buy into such christian propaganda cr*p as 'intelligent design'? It's pure bosh.

Do you really believe Christianity has the market on intelligent design?

Originally posted by bogomil
No objections in principle, though a few of them have to adapt to the level of loveability, making this possible.

You did not nor will you ever have to adapt to any level of loveability to me. You are perfect just the way God made you!

I am just trying to get you to see it.

Originally posted by bogomil
Agreed, but I can do this just as well from a position of utilitarian philosophy/ethics. We've formerly talked about the nation I live in, with it's small 'god-bothering' elements. In a relative sense, it's closer to the ideals you put up, than any religion-nation is.

Any philosophy or ethics not based on love for all are doomed to failure as the tyrannically oppress those not deemed worthy by the standard.

Originally posted by bogomil
Don't start preaching at me, buddy. That's not how things are between us.

You know I do not preach my friend. I do. Love is always between us. Always will be.

Originally posted by bogomil
I still like you, but I have an utter, well-considered, examined, epistemologized (such a word doesn't exist) and informed CONTEMPT of the 'original sin' doctrine. It's amongst my ten-top stupidities created by mankind for social engineering purposes and/or crutches for existential confusion.

I despise the original sin concept as well my friend. Sin is the burden of suffering placed on us since birth. We have all been harmed in one way or another. As a result, we harm others. The way to rectify this is by loving each other unconditionally. This heals the pain and helps us to move forward as the perfect beings we are.

Originally posted by bogomil
Cutting to the essense of your free-will specualtions. Yes, this is true. Free will is a double-edged tool. But then there's a the 'god'-adherers' neat little trick of: When something turns out good, it's 'god'; when something goes to heck, it's Satan or misused free will.

What God has created is Good. What Man has created, not so Good for it is a system of iniquity. We can do better.

Originally posted by bogomil
Dentistry, soft toilet paper, social support with no bag ladies, egalitarian liberal democracy, global communication, so people slowly come to know each other, morals based on common sense instead of religious doctrine, big motorcycles and mini-skirts.

Love my friend. A system based on love for all.

Originally posted by bogomil
Lots of patience, lots of non-indoctrinal practical education, access to all wanted knowledge of whatever kind (ideological, rational whatever), no privileged groups, private rights respected (BOTH ways: Freedom TO, and freedom FROM).

edit on 30-1-2011 by bogomil because: spelling

And, Love for all.

With Love,

Your Brother

Re Iam

Quote: ["We are Brothers, equal before God."]

I think it's fine being brothers, but I repeat, don't god-bother me. I'm NOT a member of that club,;and sorry, if you try to enforce me into it, I clam up. I have my own opinions on that, repetitive claims of my being member without knowing it is invasive and only leads to "is, isn't, is...."

Quote: ["I have not presented a cosmological map as yet my friend."]

Not needed in a formal form. 45 years together with the subject is enough for me to see the basis of various religious claims.

Quote: ["So much judgement and not enough understanding here my friend. One man's confusion is another's understanding. The spring cleaning you mention are the judgements we must sweep away."]

Having an opinion on religious matters, different from yours, is not a judgement or lack of understanding. It's a result of a long process, on my own (not yours, not an alleged 'god's) parameters and premises.

Quote: ["Where is this chaos? I have not seen any chaos. Can you show me chaos?"]

How do you mean "show"? Chaos isn't something you buy by the pound in a grocery store. If you mean "demonstrate", I've already brought up Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.

Quote: ["Any philosophy or ethics not based on love for all are doomed to failure as the tyrannically oppress those not deemed worthy by the standard."]

As it stands: Doctrinal. I can accept a version where love must be INCLUDED.

Originally posted by bogomil
Re Vicky32

You wrote:

["Where did you get that idea from? What direct followers of John? I for one have never heard of them..."]



Google G.R.S. Mead and/or the 'Ginza' (sometimes Genza), and you'll find information about this, if you're interested.

I don't give you any specific link, because I believe in peoples' rights to choose between available information on any subject without doctrinal manipulation of 'source' selection/approval.

If you don't find anything useful I'll help you by U2U.

OK, Bogomil, I shall do! (Having connection issues today, but as soon as I possibly can, I will!)
Vicky

Re Vicky32

I respect your attitude. I'm fed up with any kind of extremist idealist/religionist, who sits entrenched in her/his little bubble of doctrines and refuse to at least get information outside it.

A debate must be based on mutual knowledge, so even I, who is no lover of christianity or the bible, have spent much time this last year on getting acquainted with them at a somewhat detailed level. And not only for cherry-picking the 'bad' parts, but also looking for christian options of co-existence with non-christians.

reply to post by bogomil



This thread is about the teachings of Christ, and everyone has their own paradigms or definitions of words, terms, meanings in this world as if, we are all in our own little hotel rooms on hotel earthship/school, and even our own interactions with others and "time" frame is subject to perceptional analysis. ie, is it truly always interacting with others or can parts of our journey be private tutoring???

A person doesn't have to believe in a real biblical Jesus, metaphorically this is still the message of love and this is how we go home.

One could live this message without hearing it however. But hearing it, or other good, loving and light filled passages, lights up our souls, and draws us, if we havn't made too many compromises with our consciousness.

We're growing our consciousness here, which is primarily about Love, and how we regard others, the kindness, gentleness, respectful nonforcing way we treat others. Its a very big thing, changing our perceptions here. Earth changes us.

We come in here, some think we're primitive beginning fledgling souls, but this is a big test. Metaphorically speaking, we're like angels growing our wings here. Metaphor because we're light beings, souls, consciousness. And feathers/wings means light as a feather consciousness, filled with love and concern for others, service to others, having overturned our weaknesses and worked through our flaws and faults, we care very much for others, and all that we have we would share, clear, light, loving, we overcome the gravity opposition of this school and can float out of here. Wings, like in angels wings, like the bird dieties of the hieroglyphs in Egypt, like nibiru, winged disc, all the wings refer to is, Lightness/Lack of Regrets and Light Consciousness, Having overcome the world and our weaknesses. The Family of Light = Light as Feather = Goodness and Love.

We're here growing our wings, however long it takes and through however many cycles it takes. Higher Ups are adults to our child. They care for us so much if they could they would go through our pain and suffering for us. As we grow to become like them, the true adults too, we will not kill, hurt, harm even those who are hurting us, we will not judge them, imprison them harshly, but Love everyone as your own younger sibling who is too immature to know how to ride the bike, and willingly suffer pain but not give it to the toddler falling off his two wheeler over and over. How much love and tenderness must we have for each other, even those who are lost and committing autrocities. We must renounce the negative behavior or harming others, but love the person, and try to reach them.

Here we are growing our consciousness OR, we are ignoring the plight of billions of poor in this world, and the wars, the poisons in our foods, the pollutions, the massive abuse of the world by the Leaders/Bankers/Corporations who are all being handled by Negative Ets. As we ignore and stay focused on our own lives and problems without challenging or speaking up to whats around us, we are allowing, giving permission, to our consciousness being dimmed.

Those are fighting words, someone dimming your awareness and consciousness. We need to resist, and see clearly the bodies falling around us. How can we deny whats happening? How can we not wake up? The bodies are falling around us? We can see the plight of the poor on our media? How can we ignore the suffering of others? We need to think globally too, the earth is a very small place in the end.

In truth, the message Jesus brought was very important, but the passage about being blind adn not seeing, applies to the christians as well. We're all blind to the truth and what earth is, why we're here and how to grow our hearts, minds, consciousness and love, we all need to ask for healing and to see, to ask to be shown our flaws so we can overcome them, and for help to do that.

Basically, the world doesnt make sense but few are questioning it, so we're being dimmed as a race. The thing is there are no mistakes. I was very upset and having a conversation with a friend yesterday, he has a lot of inside info, and the dark side appears to be winning always. Its not a 50/50 here at all, I kept saying, if this was a 50/50 then I would have the choice to walk away from this negativity and go join a moneyless venus project commune over there, and we would show the other half of the world up. Instead its a 99.99% negative run system fooling people, and it takes that small percentage a big diggign job to actively seek for the truth for years. How is that fair?

Then some insight was shared: we have to be here! We becoming our future selves this is the foundation of our progression.

We are literally like angels earning their wings, but earth is a very hard school, some take longer doing it, those who are not growing in love and awareness, and some are shrinking, in fact some have made train wrecks of their lives.

We are drawing like a magnet, magnetism, that which is of our inner thoughtscape, inner soulscape if you will.

In our true home, and when this earth time is over we will remember them, our family, we were all loving and caring people. Everyone here is dear, loved and close family who we would not only never hurt, but never allow to be unequal, starve, be neglected, to have their dreams blocked, no room in the inn, their resources taken from them, their opportunities to advance, we would never allow them to be traumatized by lack, by pyramid systems, we would share eveyrthing we have with them and strive, bend over backwards to be a gift unto others.


We're going to remember.

Its going to hurt alot. We're going to be filled with so much shame. So many of us, its so hard this test these lessons. To not give into the world, to not give up, to not run after the job, the promotion, the big house, and walk by the homeless and tell the hungry person who has just been kicked out of a mental institute and is off his medication to go get a job heartlessly, when he is starving. To not have conditions or demand slave labor for the right to live, and gather resources as everyone is born with that right.

We are to overcome this world and not store treasures here, but in the heavenly beyond, behind the veil.

As we dim our lights and accept the suffering of others, negatives can move in, tipping the balance to be more like 80% negative/20% positive, or even greater. It would go the other way if we woke up, and our planet would advance into the cosmos with an advanced upgraded, equal free people. Negatives do not have power over positives or light. We pull in the channel and the contact and influence by our group consciousness.

Even reading about Jesus, and the different ways people interpret his sayings is an eye opener? What light do you see with? It all comes down to that!

I'll give an example. He said here:

matthew 19; 30. also mark 10; 31 and luke 13; 30 all say the same thing

The first shall be last and the last first.

How do most people interpret that? Well for one thing, most commonly I have heard, and even thought myself, that it means those who are greedy and take more than their share will be given shrunken smaller portions, and those with little will have much. That is the traditional meaning perhaps. That the wealthy who do make home will have to go through a period of eating humble pie.

Not so though, really. On the other side, ALL that we have, we share equally and hold nothing back. All that is mine is yours, and all that is yours is mine and nothing is our own, for it everyones, and yet we all possess so much bounty and are so prosperous, we are all enriched by our sharing everything. There are no limits on the prosperity, save for our consciousness and grade.

So the real meaning is more akin to the Prodigal son: Luke 15; 11-32. Its long so I won't post it.

But in the end, he returns home and a huge celebration with so much given to him, after he had blown all his inheritance, and his brothers and sisters were very upset. The father said, all I have I share with you always, but it is right to celebrate this homecoming (paraphrased).

In reality, the first will be last, meaning those who wake up and grow up to become adults are always serving the little children. They give away everything. They wait in line patiently, and don't demand their equal portions, they are generous, and count not the giving. The least shall be greater means, the younger ones are more concerned with materialism and are always seeking for these things, demanding their share, and even your share too!!!! They are just stretching their wings and learning to fly or toddlers who fall off their bikes alot. We are confident for in the beyond all of the true treasures lie, nothing here counts much at all.

Originally posted by bogomil
Re Vicky32

I respect your attitude. I'm fed up with any kind of extremist idealist/religionist, who sits entrenched in her/his little bubble of doctrines and refuse to at least get information outside it.

A debate must be based on mutual knowledge, so even I, who is no lover of christianity or the bible, have spent much time this last year on getting acquainted with them at a somewhat detailed level. And not only for cherry-picking the 'bad' parts, but also looking for christian options of co-existence with non-christians.

I did google GRS Mead, and noted that he was a Theosophist, and a friend of the unlovely Madame Blavatsy... Sadly, neither have any credibility for me, as I am a former Theosophist... former for good reason!
The Theosophists got most of their "knowledge" by interviewing their own heads - I am sad that I wasted many of my teen years in unwarranted credulousness with regard to their ideas.
Vicky

Re Unity_99

Dude or Dudette, as the case may be. I wasn't born again yesterday (as Eric Cartman from 'South Park' has it).

The questions you take up in your post have taken up most of my available time the last 45 years, with some exceptions involving mundane matters of pretty women, old matured whiskey and my overdimensioned and quite showy motorbike.

So inside the limits of my intellect, my capacity for theoretically and practically applied compassion and my observations on how matters best are conducted, when including a 'matter' part (my body), I'm not unfamiliar with your thoughts.

But unfortunately I suffer from a very rare mental disease called 'doctrinophobia', which makes me allergic to preachers, prophets, missionaries, predictions, holy books, holy bubbles, sermons and, ...ofcourse, doctrines. It's not as if I get small green spots or start frothing around the mouth when exposed to the above (at least not if I remember to take my medicine), but it does make sensible communication between me and promotors of such difficult.

And I must admit, that I have to up my medicine-dose every time I'm in contact with evangelist christians or their new-age-buddhist-christian-pseudoscience-spiritual-everything brethren and sistren.

So while I'm flattered at the time and energy you probably put in your post to me, I suggest (that is if you want to communicate), that you cut down on the sermon-aspect and skip the assumptional doctrines.

Re Vicky32

Thanks for your pleasant common-sense answer.

When I was younger than I am now, I read most of Blavatsky's books and some 15.000 pages of Alice Baily. And ofcourse the parallel lines of Gurdjieff, Steiner etc.

In the semitheosophist/theosophist writings I found two comments, which were quite valuable to me then; but apart from that I agree with you (but then I don't consider app 16.000 pages reading completely wasted, if you can find two useful things in them).

But I'm just rambling now. I didn't direct you to those sources to present you with any 'authoritative' interpretations of anything. I take it, that you can draw your own conclusions from whatever source-material you accept as worthwhile.
I only wanted to point out, that there do exist sources with at least claims of unbroken historiocity (if that word exists) from the same period, when NT was being formulated, sharing common individuals (Jesus and John the baptist). I honestly, and in a friendly way, don't give a hoot about how you interpretate these sources alone or together. We fortunately have freedom of speech and religion for everybody in egalitarian, liberal, secular democracy.

Quote: ["The Theosophists got most of their "knowledge" by interviewing their own heads - I am sad that I wasted many of my teen years in unwarranted credulousness with regard to their ideas."]

Christian basics can be and are accused of the same; .... christians finding things inside their own mindsets and believing in some guys who app. 2.000 years ago wrote a manual. It's eventually and unevitably a question of 'burden of proof', when this situation runs its course.

But as an interesting side-track: I was for a couple of years a participating observer (my way of learning theoretically and experientally) in 'Summit Lighthouse' (a splinter theosophist group). Their leader actually was able to do the Blavatsky stunt of giving long lectures on an extremely broad spectrum, without visible means of sources or other information. Either she was 100% eidetic AND a genius, or she had access to information-gathering in unknown ways. That I actually disagreed with most of it, wan't because of her inaccuracy or bad analyses, but because I couldn't accept her final conclusions and cosmology.

reply to post by Vicky32


Well dear lady, why do you think I but these three items in my quote: "chapter and number headings, to its italicized words, right down to the 1769 edition" because these are the major points ignorant people bring up in dealing with the authority of the King's Bible.

Because none of what I listed were "in the original autographs" that no one alive for the last 1000 years has ever seen anyway. Yet they are still just as inspired and more so than the original manuscripts wrote down by their biblical authors.

By the way, prove the new trash bibles are better than the majestic KJV and I'll prove you wrong, embarrassingly.

Yes, the Bible needs interpreting, but by all means, never by "the church"
Here's how you interpret the Bible, according to the Bible:

2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Isaiah 28:9-12 - Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; LINE UPON LINE, LINE UPON LINE; here a little, and there a little:
11 - For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 - To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.


Don't rely on other people for your souls eternal destiny. If your a Christian, go straight to the source of the power, the Holy King James Bible from which every great revival, and soul winning preacher has used and loved.

reply to post by KingKeever1611


Don't cling to tightly to the books you adore. Their days are number and soon will be nothing more than paper weights or fancy novels of the past. That which divides, gives way to that which unifies. We are flipping through the final chapter of the tale.

What a ride it has been!



With Love,

Your Brother

the Bible been around a long long time, and will be forever and ever till the end of time... it ain't goin a nowhere.

On the other hand you get alot of people who take the word too personally and believe t is speaking only to them, they develop a holier than thou attitude and claim not to judge others, which is a bit weird.

I believe the truth has revealed itself and will keep on revealing...

great lyrics I might add

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by bogomil
Re Vicky32

I respect your attitude. I'm fed up with any kind of extremist idealist/religionist, who sits entrenched in her/his little bubble of doctrines and refuse to at least get information outside it.

A debate must be based on mutual knowledge, so even I, who is no lover of christianity or the bible, have spent much time this last year on getting acquainted with them at a somewhat detailed level. And not only for cherry-picking the 'bad' parts, but also looking for christian options of co-existence with non-christians.

I did google GRS Mead, and noted that he was a Theosophist, and a friend of the unlovely Madame Blavatsy... Sadly, neither have any credibility for me, as I am a former Theosophist... former for good reason!
The Theosophists got most of their "knowledge" by interviewing their own heads - I am sad that I wasted many of my teen years in unwarranted credulousness with regard to their ideas.

Vicky

yes and as we dig a little deeper we see that we are dealing with Mysticism and even Kabbalah too in some sections on ats... yep it's a very secretive thing

Originally posted by IAMIAM
reply to post by KingKeever1611

 

Don't cling to tightly to the books you adore. Their days are number and soon will be nothing more than paper weights or fancy novels of the past. That which divides, gives way to that which unifies. We are flipping through the final chapter of the tale.

What a ride it has been!

With Love,

Your Brother

What a ride in.DEED!!!!!

Kudos

reply to post by Abovo

oh it's not a ride... it is called creation of content and trolling, how else would anyone keep this sections alive ?

you got people claiming to follow the teachings of Christ yet they say the book is on it's way out, laughable... then they try to pit followers of the same faith against eachother claiming they are not following the teachings of the book. Also some will turn around and say that your wisdom is a lesser wisdom, but they're supposed to be holier than thou right and not to be judging

very simple 101 stuff if you ask me, thankfully the truth is here too and actually out numbers, the truth will remain and continue to guide and warn new arrivals... there are only few people here who are not speaking in-tune.

my favorite though right now has to be MrXYZ and IAMAM one claiming to be Jesus and the Spirit and judging others claiming their wisdom is lesser...

oh it's a grand conspiracy

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact


Job 24:2 Some remove the landmarks; they violently take away flocks, and feed thereof


Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


Progress can be contradictory at times.



Peace

Originally posted by Abovo
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


Progress can be contradictory at times.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword"
(Matthew 10:34)

Originally posted by Cosmic.Artifact

Originally posted by Abovo
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


Progress can be contradictory at times.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword"
(Matthew 10:34)

edit on 2/5/2011 by Cosmic.Artifact because: (no reason given)

When the wine skin burst the whole world became drunk bathed, as it were, in the totality of nothingness. Men could not determine whether they strived against friend or foe, light or shadow. Then one came and brought even greater darkness to the night so that many might abandon the night altogether!

Pro 14:4 Where no oxen are, the crib is clean: but much increase is by the strength of the ox.

reply to post by Abe7Fig

Me too and the responses you're getting are interesting, and unusual, to say the least!

Personally I like the exchange with the woman at the well where Jesus reframes God as "spirit and truth", and then talked about his desciples reaping a harvest they did not work for as the fields can be seen now ripe with townspeople coming to see what all the fuss is about after the "water woman" ran to them (forgetting her jog) to tell them about the person she met who knew certain things about her only a prophet or a pschic of some kind might know.

But I'll say that the snarling seething hatred being spewed at the mere mention of the teachings of Jesus, is both very sad, and utterly absurd.