Is Black Metal Evil?

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by TrueBrit

 

The lyrics say one thing, yet the tone, and melody of the music says something completely different.

In my opinion, the tone and the melody are different because the music itself is different. Many musical genre's throughout the ages have been classified as evil just because they were outside the norm, such as blues or rock 'n roll for example. Today there are millions of such bands enjoyed by many fans.
Do you think extreme metal today could, in a way, be similar to the blues/rock 'n roll of the past?

To add another point to the thread, there are many sub-genres of extreme metal and black metal in particular. Although many bands fall into the black metal genre, there are certain elements which seperate them from fellow bands, thus creating a need for further sub-divisions.

'Wolves in the Throne Room' are a fairly popular black metal band and have an ideology that might seem interesting to people interested in learning more about black metal. Taken from their Wiki page:

The band is well known for their eco-spiritual and eco-anarchist vision, which they consider to be a step beyond the vision offered by satanic, fascistic and nihilistic black metal. They have described their sound as "purifying black metal" or "transformative black metal", and often state that traditional black metal should be seen as a jumping-off point in a process of continual spiritual growth, and not an end unto itself.

reply to post by dyllels

Do you think extreme metal today could, in a way, be similar to the blues/rock 'n roll of the past?

Not at all.

Youre comparing something moderate, to the most extreme. Blues i find can be beautiful, but again, its an expression of the age we live in and isnt something necessarily desirable.

Rock and roll can be bad and indeed i would agree that its 'the devils music'. Of course, that is meant in a purely metaphorical way. Those who dont understand metaphysical or abstract concepts will tend to simplify this statement as people literally thinking the devil creates this music. The devil is simply a symbol for 'away from G-d'. That force which denies unity, and the spiritual, and instead glorifies ego and sensualism, can be called the devil. Indeed, in Hebrew, the word for "holy", Kodesh, more specifically means "to be seperate". This root also refers to prostitutes - kedoshim. In other words, one who seeks union with G-d, will separate himself from materialism or any other idea which encourages self importance. Likewise, a prostitute refers to someone who indulges in the sensual. Such a person is aswell made separate, but in this case from the divine.

Even the name rock and roll describes the nature of the music. A rock is lifeless inanimate matter. In classical thought, the 4 kingdoms of natural existence are human, animal, vegetable and inanimate. That which exhibits more activity is more spiritual, and closer to G-d, whereas that which exhibits less, is farther away. Naturally, this music disposes one towards materialism and sensualism and has him 'rolling' like a rock in that direction, away from the ultimate truth of reality.

Likewise, "metal". This isnt coincidence. Those music execs who coined the names for this genre of music did so with an esoteric understanding of what this music actually is.

The band is well known for their eco-spiritual and eco-anarchist vision, which they consider to be a step beyond the vision offered by satanic, fascistic and nihilistic black metal. They have described their sound as "purifying black metal" or "transformative black metal", and often state that traditional black metal should be seen as a jumping-off point in a process of continual spiritual growth, and not an end unto itself.

Spiritual, doesnt have to mean what people imagine it to mean. Any metaphysical theory can be called 'spiritual'. Some people think spiritual growth occurs through destruction and chaos. This is a manichean gnostic idea which animates hollywood and the music industry in general.

I am not just attacking black metal. I am attacking the quality of the music, yes. I dont think this aggressive type of music can ever be modified lyrically to be accetable. But im also attacking the pop genre, house, rap, hip hop etc crap on the radio. All of this stuff conduces to moral laziness, apathy and in all cases, egotism.

Its a harsh criticism yes, and its something that wont be acceptable to many because this is the only world most people know. What people dont know, either offends, or scares them. In this case, people dont understand mankinds actual purpose in this world, having been distorted beyond recognition by generations of conditioning that has left most people utterly impervious to its meaning and worth.

reply to post by dontreally


Thank you for your in-depth response. Although i might not agree all the points you have raised, you have made me aware of a totally different viewpoint to mine, and encouraged me to re-evaluate my outlook. I thank you for that.

Originally posted by dontreally

 

I am not just attacking black metal. I am attacking the quality of the music, yes. I dont think this aggressive type of music can ever be modified lyrically to be accetable. But im also attacking the pop genre, house, rap, hip hop etc crap on the radio. All of this stuff conduces to moral laziness, apathy and in all cases, egotism.

I agree with you on the 'mass-produced' music that appears on the radio, but I have never heard a black-metal song played on air. It just isn't that easily accessible to warrant air-time. The same could be said for jazz or classical music where one would have to be tuned in to a radio station dedicated to that sort of music in order to hear songs of that particular genre.
With that point in mind, it seems like jazz musicians, composers and, in this case, extreme metal band members would not have follow that path to affirm their over-inflated ego, but rather just be respected by their fans for succeeding at music they felt passionate about.

In some cases, a great deal of time is taken in order to put forward a top quality metal album. A great deal less than any pop or house album. When some black metal bands writes songs, they spend a large amount of time making the song flow, while highlighting certain emotive passages of music. This only happens on stage when all of the member are playing there instruments together, for the crowd's enjoyment. [hopefully ]
That, in my musical career, is the epitome of the unity you stated earlier.

Just as a pastor preaches his sermon, we present our message on a Saturday night.
It is the message behind it that counts. It is hard work getting a bunch of teens to church, and a lot easier spreading a similar message at a metal show where fans will often discover new ideologies and viewpoints while researching the band they love.

The point I'm trying to make is, and i apologise for the digression earlier, what is the harm in standing for 'pro-earth' and 'pro-humanitarian' viewpoints and presenting it in a black metal medium?
I understand not every black metal band follows those notions, but some do.
In that case, black metal would not be intrinsically good or evil, but rather just a reflection of band members themselves.

reply to post by dontreally


But you see now, you are questioning my relationship with my God, one of, if not the most solid thing about my life to date.
When a man goes to church, he will hear sweet hymns played with a soft touch on the organ, and the strangled near emotionless dirge that the congregation would like to believe is the song as sung in its original form, but in my expirience (of course Im willing to assume that this is different in other churches than mine) differs so wildly from celebration and glorification of God, through its quietude, that in fact it seems a diservice to his name.
In rage against this lack of effort, I would sing out as loud and clear as possible, with my voice never straying from the notes as they were meant to be, and though I thought it might please the Lord to actualy hear his praises sung, others in the church would look upon me with annoyance, and sometimes outright anger. I soon learned to be quiet, and eventualy gave up entirely singing the hymns in church. After a time, and the occurance of our local vicar turning out to be part of a sordid affair involving a parishoner, I left the church entirely to its own devices, having over the years realised the lie they all told themselves, and how toxic it was to my soul. The lie of course, is that a damned one amongst them were there to worship Christ Almighty , the Lord of Lords, King of Kings and son of God. They were there to be social, to feel worthy, to be a part of the community, and crucialy over the years, to turn away the poorest and most in need of Gods love and aid, claiming all sorts of petty differences as evidence of some taint or other which would make them bad church stock.
Me being young as I was, understood that Jesus would have been mightily vexed by such behaviour, hence my taking leave of the hate behind the cardigans and crucifixes of my supposedly fellow Christians. From then on, I devoted myself, amongst my other duties as a person, to living life loud, to celebrating my existance, and to be as honest as I possibly could about it too.
So many years of repressing my fustration at the lies, and the pretences, and the utter inability of the pious to notice thier own sin, I stumbled upon extreme metal. It was the first, and only music I have ever heard, that was unashamedly powerful and decisive and reminiscent of the music of the great composers in its technical complexity . If you were in the room with it, it would chase you down and slap you till you listened! And I most assuredly did. I listened, and I wrangled with myself about the connotations of the lyrics, and the oppressive nature of some of the overarching structure of the music to which I was exposing myself.
I realised something about black metal especialy that effected me deeply. It was glorious. Harpsicord, juxtaposed so utterly sublimely with frenetic bass riffs, improbable structure of the guitar sounds, and absolutely mind buggering drumbeats that defied my futile attempts to envisage thier performance live, if only for the pace and skill with which they were delivered to my ears. Though I knew that in many bands producing similar sounds, the intent of the lyrics were dark, and sometimes Satanic, my interest in the genre grew greatly, and so did my associations with other metal heads, many of whom may I add, were , and still are by the grace of God, Christians.
When I was down on my luck , and had no place to stay but the cold streets, with a concrete matress and a blanket made of stars, it was metalheads who took me in, though I had been refused entry to a church (while freshly washed and groomed I might add... some people do not appreciate effort) who fed me , they who had been the tools of God, and given me a space and a blanket and even breakfast with no hint of expectation of a return of this literaly life saving favour. I had never seen such generosity in my life, and these were not people of ample means. In fact one of them , still my best freind to this day, was living in a room the size of a jail cell , out the back of a pub at the time, and though it was small, she gave the space next to the bed, between the bed and the cupboard to me for as long as I needed it. Her spiritual thinking has long been, that she believes that theres something beyond death, and that something made us, but shes unsure about the issue of God, because like me shes been exposed to the nasty end of church, not the nastiest, but nasty none the less.
That girl must have been feeling open to the idea of a creator God at the time, because her input into my life , and the oppertunity of knowing her as a friend are some of the greatest gifts from God that I have ever recieved, and over the years I have come to learn something about God.
I do not think that God gives a tuppeny toss what I listen to , so long as what ever it is makes me want to praise him. Why else would he have been so good to me, and given me so many oppertunities to pay that goodness forward, for there have been many, and I have taken them. Why , if I was on the wrong path, would I be allowed to go from the narrow fools who tried to teach me faith, if it was not the path he meant for me, and if by walking it I would be tainted?
I have had, since listening to black metal, more oppertunities to spread Gods love to those who need it, than any of the people I ever met in church have had. I have saved the life of drunks who would have choked on thier vomit, I have given food to the needy , water to the thirsty , in Gods name, and headbanging all the way . I have prevented harm comming to the vunerable, and given saftey to those under attack from dark times on uncountable occasions.
If I had been doing what my moraly defuncted pastor was doing, or what his deluded flock were doing, I would have been sitting in my perfect home, drinking perfect wine, having perfect meals and getting out and doing precisely NOTHING for my community what so ever. As it is, fifty three people live, where without the grace of God , and my being there at the time, they would have died , alone often times. Fifteen marriages saved through the counsel of fidelity provided through my mouth, with the sense and wisdom provided by one far greater in intellect , and power than myself. Countless drunken nights ending without serious injury from a fall, because I happened by after being at a metal bar, and offered to carry someone home, though I would have liked to be in bed myself rather than walking half a mile out of my way.
I would have been there for NONE of this, if it werent for Metal, and I would have had no feeling of needing to help anyone at all , if I had not God in my heart. I would be less of a man, and less of a vessel for Gods word to reach those who need it, if I had just been sat at home, or at church with the converted and the corrupted. At least out there in the darkness, shining a light makes a difference. More to the point, no one shouts at you when you do something right.
We all have our paths to tread, and though I chose mine right enough, God is with me. Unlike Kreator I am not an enemy of God. I am a mere tool , and he shall use me as he sees fit, regardless of the beats slamming , the guitars wailing, and the keyboards tinkling in my ears.

Originally posted by dyllels

The point I'm trying to make is, and i apologise for the digression earlier, what is the harm in standing for 'pro-earth' and 'pro-humanitarian' viewpoints and presenting it in a black metal medium?
I understand not every black metal band follows those notions, but some do.
In that case, black metal would not be intrinsically good or evil, but rather just a reflection of band members themselves.

Usually i am of the opinion that most things arent intrinsically good or evil.

For instance, Jazz, rock, and many other genres can be used as a medium to spread a good positive spiritual message. But certain things because of their extreme nature just seem to me atleast completely irreconcilable with G-d consciousness.

I find it hard to use metal, which is loud, and abrasive, to speak about love, charity, and other such meritorious attributes. Theres a valid reason why most combat troops listen to metal when they go into combat. Its motivates them towards battle, and aggression and not towards sensitivity, and moral acuity.

I gave an analogy earlier for how when one feels compassion towards another, the only possible way he can give authentic expression to these feelings is through warm and gentle words. If one were to scream these feelings, although the feelings would be communicated, they wouldnt become felt by the other person. My point is that this music is good for war, combat and aggression and not for promoting Judeo-Christian ethics.

The only reason why it works in bringing people to christianity is because its a popular form of music nowadays, and speaks to them on a cultural level. Heaven forfend that a christian youth only tolerate the message of christianity through this sort of music, and not through the traditional softer, serene types. If thats the case, its the music, and not the message hes responding to.

reply to post by dontreally


Do you think that God is all sweetness and angels and all things lovely ? Are you absolutely insane ? God is the most powerful, he created the heavens, the Earth, and mankind ! He will be the one who decides and begins the end of the world, and when Jesus comes to Earth for the second time, it will not be as the lambish martyr that he portrayed last time. He will be here to seperate the wheat from the chaff , taking names and hauling the saints to heaven.
Do you honestly think that the entity which destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, allowed Moses to escape with the Jews by way of a murderous vengence against the Egyptians in the form of the comming together of the red sea, or for that matter FLOODED THE ENTIRE WORLD is made of all things charming and utterly without fury ??
By all means, worship the loving God , the friend , the Father in Heaven , hallowed be His name for ever more, but never , NEVER ignore that God is also capable of destruction on a massive scale, and fury such as mankind cannot comprehend. To ignore that facet of His existance would be as great if not greater a folly than focusing to deeply upon it!

There is no such thing as evil. There is only love, or a lack of love. There is no such thing as the devil, only God, or the loss of God.

Music, per say, can not by deffinition be evil. It is only music, it can't chase you down the street, it can't pick up a gun. Do you think people are influenced by by music to the extent that otherwise nice law abiding citizens would pick up a gun and shoot up a school? Nah - they would have done it any way. They were twisted, they had problems, they were always going to do it. Was it the way they were born, or what society did to them? Well, thats for another thread perhaps.

This topic comes up again and again. Remember Ozy Ozbourne being in court because some kid commited suicide, and they blamed his songs. They even quoted one of his songs it was called Paranoid, and they quoted the lyric "I tell you to end your life" - but actually he didn't sing that, it was miss heard by the family. The real lyric is "I tell you to enjoy life". This was pointed out in court.

And so as you hear these words
telling you now of my state
I tell you to enjoy life
I wish I could but it's too late


I don't think Music can be evil, but I suppose it is possible to whip up emotion in people, to give them the push they need to go out and do bad things. I will go that far.

Looking at the names of the 'black metal' bands, I realize that I ever heard of any of them. I guess I just don't listen to music anymore. I will say that music certainly can open doors. What, exactly, is 'black metal'? Can someone describe the differences between the metal classifications? I have heard of speed metal, and heavy metal. I would assume that speed metal is fast? Idk. So if you play really fast, but never use the amp, is it still speed metal? I remember hitting a augmented fourth chord really hard, one day, arpeggiated, when just at that moment a strong gust of wind slammed shut a shed door that is typically wedged tightly against the cement floor. Is Vivaldi 'speed metal'?

An hour's passed; I may have an answer, but not one geared toward 'black metal' per se. It's in how you frame the thoughts when playing. Sometimes, it's steel that is needed to turn aside steel. Or, you may be watching natives in your backyard, because it was a mere 300 years ago, and the depth of their souls etched roots in the ground, and remain.

reply to post by Resentedhalo08


Black metal is natural.
Destructive force is the 50% of Nature.(yin-yang....).(Forget about religions, those are just devices of indoctrination to control people).
Black metal is a clear thing, it operates with negative emotions, mainly rage and hatred, raising them to an extatic level.(Listen Iskald, Kampfar or Schattenvald, you will see what I mean).
Black metal has an interresting 'side effect'on me: I can think more rationally while I'm listening it.
(Maybe because sympathyc nerve system is responsible for both agression and abstract thinking?Or simply the level of agression helps me to get rid of conformity patterns?)
Anyway, I think black metal is a good music for anyone here on ATS. I think it's against brainwashing. You can see, all the domestic animals are docile...

I read an experiment, where they planted a variety of seedlings. They played different kinds of music to each of the seedlings, to see if music affected the way that plants grew. Basically, the plants that had to endure heavy metal or aggressive music would wither away and die, or would experience stunted growth, the plants that were exposed to orchestral music would flourish and bloom. On a natural biological level, we are really not much different to the plants. We might be able to grow physically with enough food, however, we might be suffering on a collective spiritual level. Whether or not music is a cause or a reflection of our state of being is a question of debate, in general, if you take a group of perfectly innocent individuals, they eventually suffer under negative energies, and if pushed past the limit, they will turn and become negative themselves.

I find it myopic and ignorant of all these Scandinavian black metal bands to burn down churches while their countries are being overrun by islam. Modern Christians will do little more than pray you to death, while the alternative exacts a far higher toll for being an infidel in your own country. You don't see any mosques or synagogues being burned because they are protected and that would be racist. Christians on the other hand, well who cares about them. If they truly wanted a pagan nation, they would be burning all alien religions from their land, not just the popular one to mock and kill. Start putting the imams heads on a pike and the grown ups will start listening. Until then, it's little more than looking for attention.

I like some and some I don't.
I don't care if it's considered evil or not if it sounds good.

reply to post by SystemResistor


I suspect that "experiment" was biased by people that had preconceived notions that metal would be detrimental to the plants, in short people that did not like metal, maybe funded by churchgoers etc.
Ever watch myth busters? they re-created this experiment with 5 different greenhouses all growing green beans all in the same soil and all on the same timed watering system. #1 was the control group and was exposed to no sound #2 had a continuous loop of positive messages spoken "you are a beautiful plant" etc #3 had a continuous loop of insults #4 was exposed to classical music 24/7 and #5 was exposed to death metal 24/7.
The results were interesting; after a number of weeks all the plants were pulled and weighed the control group did the worst, the insult/praise groups did about equal the classical music did a liitle better that the insult/praise groups but the death metal plants were huge and had already started producing beans far surpassing the other groups. The mythbuster people figured that plant growth is stimulated by noise, the more the better.

reply to post by Resentedhalo08


Originally posted by ScorpioRising
So if I'm feeling a little angry already and like I could punch someone then I find nothing better or more therapeutic than blasting some Death metal whilst screaming along and throwing my arms around. Why? Because it gets all the stress out! Without having to lose it with an actual person.
It doesn't CAUSE evil doings. It prevents them.


I completely agree with you, music like Black Metal and Death Metal are great outlets for anger, generally people repress a lot of anger and stress and those who have a weak resolve will often snap, so to have a means of letting this anger and hatred out, in what I see in a positive way is brilliant.

A lot of people don't get it, why bands write such dark lyrics but it's an expression for them and a means emotional release for the people who listen to it.


signature:
E$$O - making the world a better place.

Agree; have you noticed that many people that are into metal are quite laid back, to people that are not into metal this is the opposite of what they expect. I hear stuff like this often "you are in a metal band? you seem so mellow"

listening to black metal is just like the want to watch horror movies for the most part but for all the wickedness done by man and blamed on the music it's misdirected because it's the person listening to the music and their weak mind already corrupted that needs to get the blame. problems at school, bullies, feelings of not fitting in, bad parenting and abusive families is the root of most problems, i come from a loving family and have been listening to heavy music pretty much since it was born and i listen to it almost exclusively to this very day and i consider myself a well rounded, good person and i am not the exception because it's only the terrible cases that gets noticed and the media's attention so it's all you hear about. aside from the strange attire and dangerous appearance of the "dancing" at a metal event there really is a unity, a brotherhood that is unparallelled. so if you're worried about a son or daughter listening to black metal or any other heavy music and maybe you're noticing a change in them, talk to them before you blame the music or take their music away because the music could possibly be the only thing allowing them to hold on to their reality. talking to them is the key.

Evil?!

Top 40 is evil?!

I'd rather be aware of not being hypnotised by the mindless, drivelling hypnotism of mainstream music...

Appearances can be decieving...

A99

There is no black metal anymore that i know of.. really, no metal at all.. it's all morphed into a pseudo type of metal that's not true to it's roots.

Back in the day we had Kiss, Dio, Iron Maiden, Ozzy and then a few like venom, slayer, anthrax.. soon as the 90's hit all metal bands went downhill from there - Nothing good came out of the 90's.

Is this stuff evil? I wouldn't think so.. more like commercialized shock value to make money singing fun songs. Iron Maidens 666 the Number of the Beast and Ozzy's Bark at the Moon come to mind.

We had a blast banging our long heavy metal hair, screamed the lyrics, make the devil sign with one hand as we raised the lighter with the other. God I miss those days.. and my hair.

No one I know of was ever influenced by this music to go out and shoot people or break into houses like the rap music is today. I am 44. I have young friends 18 to 25 and all they listen to now is this (bastardized) form of rap music. never thought I'd see the day rap as awful as it is would be mainstream. This rap junk is making people do things metal heads would never think of. It's the rap of today that's truly evil IMO.

One thing i would be aware of is if it is an act or if there really is some mental illness. Nothing against black metal specifically. That said, there were rock musicians who were viewed as outrageous and in reality were not mentally well. Two come to mind off hand.

Originally posted by Malcher
One thing i would be aware of is if it is an act or if there really is some mental illness. Nothing against black metal specifically. That said, there were rock musicians who were viewed as outrageous and in reality were not mentally well. Two come to mind off hand.

One I can think of, off the top of my head, that is not metal...whitney housten...sends a pretty positive message, don't it? (not)

A99

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Some of the newer metal bands are pretty good, they just sound different than what we grew up with.
I miss my hair too.
Check this out mapofmetal.com...#/home
Someone(s) put a lot of work into this.