Video: Man shot to death in his home by police, while holding a golf club.

i guess a bad guy could always yell that they are police as well then where will you be left after dropping weapon and they bust bust in, but generally yeah i know less harm will be done if i dont act threatening.

Originally posted by Moose318
By no means am I personally attacking xXxtremelySecure, But I read one of his posts a few weeks ago, and he stated that his home is a fortress to bust into. Perhaps we should all reinforce all of our homes so that we have enough time to verify who the hell is trying to kick in our door at 4:30 in the morning... At least then if we came out armed knowing theres actually police out there, there wouldnt be much of a problem getting shot for what we were doing.

I agree with this greatly my house would not stop a Tactical team or gang member for long 2-3 minutes for them to get in with the right equipment in the mean time, everyone in 1/4-1/2mile are getting woke up by my alarm system(loud and bright). I have also fortified my bedroom I can make a stand there if it is dedicated gang members(provided they don't have grenades). I take my families safety seriously.

Secure

reply to post by xXxtremelySecure


I can go along with bruised s**t happens and it beats the heck out of opening fire in a crowded house

But you didnt really answer the question...........suspose you didnt have the LEO sticker on your door.........just a citizen...........Would you lay down on the floor as you described or........half asleep, stunned, fearful.............grab the nearest weapon till you figured out what was going on?

Originally posted by gougitousakusha
i guess a bad guy could always yell that they are police as well then where will you be left after dropping weapon and they bust bust in, but generally yeah i know less harm will be done if i dont act threatening.

One of MS13's favortie crimes in this are are to get 12-15 people together bust in a house while yelling "police search warrant" handcuff the people and then take everything. We caught one of them with a SWAT entry manual from amazon.com. We have been telling people to get better doors and get battery powered cellular dialer for their alarm system(they cut the power/phones/cable before they enter.

Secure

Originally posted by xXxtremelySecure
reply to post by Liquesence

 

A firearm is for lethal force only, at least it is the only legal use. If I intentionally shoot someone in the leg I may become liable for a lawsuit because I violated SOP and there am not covered in the insurance, however, intelligent(veteran) officers sometimes flinch(something in their eye) and miss the center mass resulting in a shot to the leg or arm.

reply to post by zombiesC4

 

If the police come in with a search warrant I would suggest lying face down with nothing in you hands, palms up.


Secure

So if one has a firearm, is trained and authorized in its use, lethal force is justified? Because that's what it's meant for? That's what SOP dictates and justifies regardless of circumstance?

So, if you shoot someone in the leg, you're liable for a lawsuit, and you aren't if you kill the person? You kill to prevent a potential lawsuit? Or is it less paperwork?

But veteran officers under SOP who miss resulting in a leg or arm injury missed a shot that was, by your implication, lethal? Aiming for a kill shot, but missing? Sorta like "Dang, i shot him in the arm. I was going for a head shot, but a gnat flew in my eye, distracting me." Perhaps a log, a mote? When officers miss they were distracted from a kill shot?

I laugh 'til i vomit at that notion.

If the police come in with a search warrant I would suggest lying face down with nothing in you hands, palms up.

That is a very smart thing to do; however, if you are disoriented, have no idea of understanding why people would be busting down your door at 3 am, know that criminals increasingly impersonate cops knocking on doors, are protecting your family, feel threatened and terrorized, and the cops have the wrong house, you might not be in clear frame of mind.

If you are unfamiliar, i suggest you look up Katherine Johnston. I guess that was justified, too, huh? Lethal force.

~

You kinda sound like a cop. (If you are, you shouldn't be.)

Originally posted by lastrebel
reply to post by xXxtremelySecure

 

I can go along with bruised s**t happens and it beats the heck out of opening fire in a crowded house

But you didnt really answer the question...........suspose you didnt have the LEO sticker on your door.........just a citizen...........Would you lay down on the floor as you described or........half asleep, stunned, fearful.............grab the nearest weapon till you figured out what was going on?

If I quit, my house would still be treating cautiously due to the NRA sticker. I like to make sure anyone they may have the wrong address knows my house has firearms, that will make the cautious and they will make sure to announce themselves. We cut spotlights on the windows, use a load PA and the individual officers are shouting "POLICE" when we go in. Mistakes get people killed and you fired/sued/jailed.

Secure

I realize that the world has changed tremendously, And because of this and media and other factors, the Police have, and will continue to take more advanced precautions in dealing with potential threats.

My problem with this new law enforcement is that the use of this kind of force is not taught IMO, to take into account each individual situation. It has become a "us against them" mentality. If you are not with us, you are against us, as GW Bush said. The cilivian polulation and our own people have also become the training and testing ground for new tactical responses. We are the live training method, except the civilian population becomes the real casualites should the officers make a mistake. Granted they too can become a casuality, but almost always they are not held accountable for their actions... if such a mistake is ever made. Because the facts always get twisted in the fog of war. This is what frightens me. The fact there is is no equality anymore with a civilian and a officer of the law. Because of this people will continue to be set up for failure, continue to be criminalized, and continue to be used as a means to bring in revenue for the state or county. And because there is no equality anymore, or humanity to a fellow man with problems, I suspect that the violence and the extreme tactics and decisions by police and civilians will continue to escalate. This economy isnt helping at all, and neither are the people running it. If more people would have the opportunity to get jobs and actually be able to take care of their families, alot of the violence would come to an end. People are either desperate or depressed anymore, and working your tail off at some walmart, mcdonald min wage job, and still not getting anywhere, just doesnt do anything positive for the psyche.

To the lastrebel....

I have nothing against xXxextemelysecure, he seems nice enough and honest to a degree. But he still is avoiding the answer to your question. I don't think you will actually get an answer, as to what his reactions would be in this type of situation. I can only assume though, even if he wasnt on the force for whatever reason, the fact that he was at a time, an officer, they would be more aware of what he is capable of doing, as well as giving him more time to surrender.

However he doesnt seem like the type to not go down easily, even if he wasnt an officer at any given point, so chances are he could easy end up in the same situation, given that the S.W.A.T teams response would be the same as in the video.

I especially "liked" the way the cops yell get on the ground even though the guy's lying there on the ground...dead. What mindless robots.

reply to post by xXxtremelySecure


LOL............if you ever quit the force you would make a good politician

Yall ask use to look at it from your side and most of us get it............you deal with the scum of the earth on a daily basis, child molesters, rapists, murders, etc

I am asking you to look at it from our side, most of us don't have LEO stickers on our doors nor are we given professional courtesy from our fellow officers. We get our doors kicked in at 4am while we are asleep by people who might be police or might be...........in your own words.......,.gangbangers looking to rob, rape and kill our whole family.

I even understand why you refuse to answer the question............because like us you would grab the closest gun till you were assured of what was going on. A man would have to be a complete moron to attack a dozen heavily armed police with a club...........not saying it doesnt happen.........just that he likely didnt know they were cops till it was too late

reply to post by Moose318


I have nothing against him either, the LEOs here seem like decent folks

I have asked this question in three different threads and not one of them answered it.........so like you I doubt i will get one

Originally posted by lastrebel
reply to post by xXxtremelySecure

 

LOL............if you ever quit the force you would make a good politician

Yall ask use to look at it from your side and most of us get it............you deal with the scum of the earth on a daily basis, child molesters, rapists, murders, etc

I am asking you to look at it from our side, most of us don't have LEO stickers on our doors nor are we given professional courtesy from our fellow officers. We get our doors kicked in at 4am while we are asleep by people who might be police or might be...........in your own words.......,.gangbangers looking to rob, rape and kill our whole family.

I even understand why you refuse to answer the question............because like us you would grab the closest gun till you were assured of what was going on. A man would have to be a complete moron to attack a dozen heavily armed police with a club...........not saying it doesnt happen.........just that he likely didnt know they were cops till it was too late

I would not make a good politician at a level higher then Sheriff or Mayor even then I do my job right I piss people of sometimes(the wrong ones).

My advice since most departments are not as cautious/prepared/trained as well as we are.

1. Get a solid door(Solid Oak, or steel covered pine) for you exterior doors and bedroom door

2. Get an alarm system with battery backup, cellular dialer, and good exterior speakers

3. Get peephole on your bedroom door

4. Get steel wire door support that you can attach at night, it will buy you 25 seconds typically.

5. Put bars on your bedroom windows and netting on the bars(fine netting)

These will all buy you some time to determine police or gang banger. There are more but I will have to make a thread on home defense.

Best advice I can give.

Secure

Originally posted by lastrebel
reply to post by Moose318

 

I have nothing against him either, the LEOs here seem like decent folks

I have asked this question in three different threads and not one of them answered it.........so like you I doubt i will get one

You know he made a comment earlier about the "flinching in the report" In his own way he his saying that..IMO...The training they most likely receive probably states if they use their weapon they better be prepared to kill. And I am sure in private meetings, the topic of lawsuits is brought up time and time again. The departments answer...and I am speculating... is if you shoot, shoot to kill. No lawsuits, and bad publicity can be averted, because it is the report that counts... That documentation by a " honest law abiding officer" is what counts in courts. He hinted that a good responsible officer who is conscious of anothers life, may "flinch" and shoot the perp in the leg, thus missing his kill zone. The end result, the perp stays alive and damage control is for the most part is accomplished.

As far as getting the answer to that question...If he is truthful and wishes to be truthful, anything he says that shows what his intentions could be, could cause him to be scrutinized and lose his career. Thus, no comprende to that question. Which is understandable. Do we really need to know what he would do, from his words? We already know...

I do not understand. Even in the military, my Regiment for sure, we are trained that, on when entering a building, we select our targets carefully and issue a warning when required. Even then, we did not open fire unless there is a real threat to our own or anothers life.

Basically, storming in, issuing half a command and opening fire before asertaining the threat is just poor SOPs.
These guys should have their opretational status removed and be on trail for murder.

Even the basic rules of engagement in the British Military, the good old Green Card, states that deadly force may only be used if there is a real danger of injury or death.

Originally posted by xXxtremelySecure
reply to post by lastrebel

 

I have NRA and FOP decals on my door always current year, that is always a clear indicator of a firearm...I also have an LEO indicator as well next to my door aswell. We do good recon in our area. Our pre-raid checklist has 65 items...

Also anytime I have to do a warrant I grab 3-4 sting grenades and 3-4 flash bangs. Our department has the beanbag 3 shot shotgun attachment under our M4's as well...in my city he would have been bruised...not dead, I say this with an 95% certainty.

Secure

Tell me why is this SWAT raiding thing so popular anyway? Shouldn't it only be used when there is a valid reason to do so? Like the suspect might be someone who might be liable to flee etc.? Why dont they for example have undercover officers stalk the suspect out of the house and then set up an ambush somewhere? I never understood why it's almost like a fashion thing in US.

[Edit to add] Not specific to this case btw. I mean overall.

Just a thought but maybe the cops were covering something up ?
I also wonder why they didnt arrest him while he was buying.

reply to post by PsykoOps


Evidence is the main reason some dealers have a speed dial set up, you bust them outside the house someone flushes the evidence. If you do a high speed entry typically you can catch them off guard resulting in a lesser chance of injury, and you can usually get them before they flush the evidence.

Secure

reply to post by xXxtremelySecure


could'nt you just have the city shut the water off to the residence to stop evidence flushing? i guess it is a bit much but in my town you pay water bills at the police station anyway so it dosnt seem too far fetched to me.

Originally posted by PoorFool

"But not all cops are the same blah blah" I don't wanna hear that #.

Well thats unlucky then because your comment is wildly incorrect. Not all cops are the same.

I can give you personal experiences of my own where i could have shot someone in the line of duty but didn't, along with numerous other colleagues who showed the same level of good judgement and restraint.

Sometimes it's hard to make a decision in a split second, but thats what you train for.

Sometimes it goes right, and sometimes it doesn't. That has happened wih probably every LEA, military unit or special forces unit. Sometimes you just get the decision wrong.

Try it sometime, walk a mile in thier shoes, but know that not all cops are the same. Fact.

CX.

Originally posted by TheLoneArcher
Even the basic rules of engagement in the British Military, the good old Green Card, states that deadly force may only be used if there is a real danger of injury or death.

edit on 20/1/2011 by TheLoneArcher because: Same as ever

Totaly agree.

To be honest, i saw many soldiers even go as far as put themselves at risk because they were so fearfull of shooting someone without good cause. They could have easily, but chose other ways to deal with the threat.

That was because if we shot someone dead, there was one hell of an investigation to follow. Nobody wanted to go there really, although sometimes it was just inevitable.

I'm glad to say that the times when i saw people shot at, the troops were more than justified to do so.

CX.