Video: Man shot to death in his home by police, while holding a golf club.

reply to post by Liquesence

Not addressing the shameful act that they burst into his house and killed him, but this is what gets me. Police officers are (supposedly) trained professionals, trained in the use of their weapons, yet somehow--all too often--they, what with their thuggish behavior and egos, shoot to kill.

This is the only way to shoot....period. If you shoot, you shoot to kill.

Now, I am not justifying the police actions, they should never have busted in at all. I believe that the only acceptable warrants to bust into a home by force are to stop a violent crime in progress. No search warrant, no drug warrant, not even a felony arrest warrant should be acceptable for this level of force. It is far too easy to wait them out, arrest them at the grocery store, surround the house and wait for them to surrender, do whatever it takes to avoid a confrontation. Using this level of force routinely is against everything America was built upon. This will be the downfall of our Republic. Eventually they will do this to the wrong person or group and they will find themselves cornered, and they will find their backup unwilling to help them!

Originally posted by Moose318
I found this thread about this story on a police officer member board. Scroll down and read their comments.

Just one officer felt differently.

link

Wow! I guess it shouldn't surprise me the way things are going. The majority of these guys have that gestapo mentality. One guy questions it out of all the comments!? Very scary. I keep a baseball bat by my bed, so god forbid I'm ever the wrong address. Jack-booted thugs!

reply to post by Moose318


"FORE!!!!!!"

He was in a batters stance, that was how I played golf, like Happy Gilmore.........

reply to post by Moose318

He was holding a long chrome shiny object. In a split second an officer could mistake it for a sword. Why wait to find out? Good job!

I thought this response in the comment section of your previous Link made sense, actually. It made me reconsider the entire incident from the L.E.O.'s point of view. If I was sure it was a golf club, I would have repeated the command on more time. He had about 10 feet of distance.(to me.) A sword is considerably more dangerous than a golf club. This was a S.W.A.T. raid serving a drug warrant, so they probably had intelligence that he was armed. Just sayin'.

I noticed a few posts back about "giving pigs waterguns" that made me cringe. Just as much as police brutality makes me cringe, actually. It is people who think like this and spread knee-jerk vitriol that creates chasms between two segments of society that need each other the most if this great nation (AND all of its faults, past and present)were to face a crisis. Law enforcement officers are our brothers, sisters, uncles, grandparents, sons daughters, etc. ,etc.

THEY ARE US.

Bad eggs exist in all segments of society, and bathrooms surely stink when you leave them no matter our status in the present.

The fact that this whole thing was filmed seems off to me. They do not film all of these raids do they? I am sure that they film some for training purposes.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Liquesence

 

Not addressing the shameful act that they burst into his house and killed him, but this is what gets me. Police officers are (supposedly) trained professionals, trained in the use of their weapons, yet somehow--all too often--they, what with their thuggish behavior and egos, shoot to kill.

This is the only way to shoot....period. If you shoot, you shoot to kill.

Now, I am not justifying the police actions, they should never have busted in at all. I believe that the only acceptable warrants to bust into a home by force are to stop a violent crime in progress. No search warrant, no drug warrant, not even a felony arrest warrant should be acceptable for this level of force. It is far too easy to wait them out, arrest them at the grocery store, surround the house and wait for them to surrender, do whatever it takes to avoid a confrontation. Using this level of force routinely is against everything America was built upon. This will be the downfall of our Republic. Eventually they will do this to the wrong person or group and they will find themselves cornered, and they will find their backup unwilling to help them!

Shooting to kill justifies nothing. Why is this the only way to shoot? Because this what one has been taught? Because guns themselves are deadly weapons? Waste no bullets/ammunition? This is well and fine when the threat(s) are justified.

And, I understand your sentiment, and partially agree with it: when learning to use a weapon (gun) one must make every shot count, which is shooting to kill, a killer's training and rationale. But shooting to kill--using deadly force--when the threat is unwarranted is--wrong. True, becoming a marksman, using a deadly weapon, a gun, one must shoot to kill, but shooting to kill in each and every case in which one shoots is not right.

There is a point at which judgment is the key, and an officer of the law should have the judgment to know when using deadly force is right and when using deadly force is wrong. Keywords: judgment. deadly.

Shooting to kill is no rationale for said actions.

But, since guns are deadly weapons, i suppose that while using a deadly weapon the only logical action is to shoot to kill, which i how i take your point.

The rest of your post, agreed.

~

*shrug*

I suppose i have a hard time understanding how shooting to kill is the *only* way to shoot.

Originally posted by daeoeste
reply to post by Moose318

 

He was holding a long chrome shiny object. In a split second an officer could mistake it for a sword. Why wait to find out? Good job!

I thought this response in the comment section of your previous Link made sense, actually. It made me reconsider the entire incident from the L.E.O.'s point of view. If I was sure it was a golf club, I would have repeated the command on more time. He had about 10 feet of distance.(to me.) A sword is considerably more dangerous than a golf club. This was a S.W.A.T. raid serving a drug warrant, so they probably had intelligence that he was armed. Just sayin'.

I noticed a few posts back about "giving pigs waterguns" that made me cringe. Just as much as police brutality makes me cringe, actually. It is people who think like this and spread knee-jerk vitriol that creates chasms between two segments of society that need each other the most if this great nation (AND all of its faults, past and present)were to face a crisis. Law enforcement officers are our brothers, sisters, uncles, grandparents, sons daughters, etc. ,etc.

THEY ARE US.

Bad eggs exist in all segments of society, and bathrooms surely stink when you leave them no matter our status in the present.

The fact that this whole thing was filmed seems off to me. They do not film all of these raids do they? I am sure that they film some for training purposes.

It was three bullets to the chest. This cop was way too trigger hungry and there's nothing that justifies that.

Please google "golf club" and tell me if that resembles a sword in any shape or form, especially since the person didn't even swing it.

"Why wait to find out?" What kind of retarded question is that? So you don't kill someone for no reason sounds like a good answer. I am sick of hearing these #ing stories.

do we know anything about the guy who got shot? is there a chance he was known to have weapons ? a history of violence? i dont know anything about this case, but i'd guess the police officer involved has lost alot more sleep over this than any of those calling him a trigger happy pig.

reply to post by neonitus


he was a meth tweaker, they dont know if he was dealing or just letting dealer stay in his home.

reply to post by PoorFool


Low lighting with flashlights glinting on a golf clubs chrome length raised to the suspects right side (with the business end of the golf clup raised behind his head) could easily be mistaken for a sword.

I am not being an apologist for Law enforcement. I just put myself in the guys shoes, that is all. These guys were there to serve a warrant and the cop may have thought the methhead had a sword. Even if the guy only had a golf club, he was ready to swing it Hank Aaron style. Even if the guy did not know it was the cops, he was an idiot. Thugs would have shot him up just as quick.

reply to post by daeoeste


he did have the club raised but he wasnt given much time to put it down between them announcing who they where and the bust in, from what i understand, still wont watch the video.

reply to post by gougitousakusha


True enough, but he was within 10 feet of the officer. I can cover that distance within seconds, and lethally so with a sword or a golf club. I am 6'4", though.

Originally posted by gougitousakusha
they probably did'nt give enough time between identifying themselves and bustin in. lesson to be learned, never be in your own home without the bullet proof vest on.

adding: i couldn't watch the video, i dont get off to violence.

edit on 19-1-2011 by gougitousakusha because: to add

I wouldn't care who they identify themselves as I will have a gun in my hand if someone bust into my house at 4:30 AM

I cant believe the cops replies to the video.................

doccop116d and metl.....you two are a prime example of what is wrong with this country and law enforcement. To comment that the shoot was bad is plain PATHETIC. Proves you two have a weak mentality and dont belong in LE. Instead of focusing on the actions of the police, how about the actions of the law breaking scumbag. He came out with a dangerous weapon raised over his head, now he's dead...PERFECTLY executed raid. Some say, "too bad he's dead"....not too bad, good thing he's dead....one less worthless POS walking our streets


and.......

Did you see that quick shot, three to the chest. it don't get any better than that.

and...........

It was a SWAT raid...what do you expect? Send an officer into the kitchen to put on a pot of tea and have a nice chat with some buttered crumpets?


And they wonder why we are starting to get pissed

The LEOs were almost gleeful that they had killed a "bad guy"

Not justified. DA who said so along side with the officers should be charged with murder. You can make any claim you want about him having a dangerous weapon etc. but the fact is that he wasnt even given a change to surrender. He did what any sane person does when their house is broken into at night. Murder plain and simple. Sick to my stomach that the system protects its storm troopers like this. Charge them all so we have few less POS roaming the street as that cops comment so colorfully said it.

Originally posted by daeoeste
reply to post by PoorFool

 

Low lighting with flashlights glinting on a golf clubs chrome length raised to the suspects right side (with the business end of the golf clup raised behind his head) could easily be mistaken for a sword.

I am not being an apologist for Law enforcement. I just put myself in the guys shoes, that is all. These guys were there to serve a warrant and the cop may have thought the methhead had a sword. Even if the guy only had a golf club, he was ready to swing it Hank Aaron style. Even if the guy did not know it was the cops, he was an idiot. Thugs would have shot him up just as quick.

edit on 02/21/09 by daeoeste because: (no reason given)

Actually there, IMO it looks like sufficent lighting as he is in the corner of a hallways with a light above his head... And as stated earlier, he didnt have time to swing, even if it was a sword.

The LEO said get on the...Shots fired....Then told him again to get on the ground....Who can react that quickly!

Like I stated earlier, most of these guys are coming back from overseas after fighting for how long...They are all programed to kill first and speculate later

reply to post by Liquesence



A firearm is for lethal force only, at least it is the only legal use. If I intentionally shoot someone in the leg I may become liable for a lawsuit because I violated SOP and there am not covered in the insurance, however, intelligent(veteran) officers sometimes flinch(at least the report says) and miss the center mass resulting in a shot to the leg or arm.

reply to post by zombiesC4


If the police come in with a search warrant I would suggest lying face down with nothing in you hands, palms up.


Secure

Originally posted by xXxtremelySecure
reply to post by Liquesence

 

A firearm is for lethal force only, at least it is the only legal use. If I intentionally shoot someone in the leg I may become liable for a lawsuit because I violated SOP and there am not covered in the insurance, however, intelligent(veteran) officers sometimes flinch(something in their eye) and miss the center mass resulting in a shot to the leg or arm.

reply to post by zombiesC4

 

If the police come in with a search warrant I would suggest lying face down with nothing in you hands, palms up.


Secure

I believe you are an officer of the law secure...Is that correct? I am not condemning all officers, but dont you think this was a little premature to be firing? And being that you are trained to make a decision quickly, are you not also trained to be able to know the difference between a object that is not hidden and in clear view...This is not a hand in a pocket with the finger pointed at you. S.W.A.T had face shields, armor and god know what else to help protect them. I don't know what the standard number is for a S.W.A.T group, but I imagine, they are armed with pistols, shotguns, semi or automatic weapons, kevlar, and come busting in large numbers...Just the experience of seeing 10 or more guys bust into your home with all kinds of artillery, is usually enough to mental stun someone...especially when all they have is a golf club. Even if it was a sword, they have got to be like the flash or road runner to really cause any harm to a LEO, when you have 9 other buddies behind you armed like Arnold Schwarzenegger ready to protect their own...

Originally posted by xXxtremelySecure
reply to post by Liquesence

 

A firearm is for lethal force only, at least it is the only legal use. If I intentionally shoot someone in the leg I may become liable for a lawsuit because I violated SOP and there am not covered in the insurance, however, intelligent(veteran) officers sometimes flinch(something in their eye) and miss the center mass resulting in a shot to the leg or arm.

reply to post by zombiesC4

 

If the police come in with a search warrant I would suggest lying face down with nothing in you hands, palms up.


Secure

in all honesty.............if someone kicked in your door a 4am would you automaticly lay down on the floor......or being half asleep to begin with grab the earest weapon to investagate the noise?

By no means am I personally attacking xXxtremelySecure, But I read one of his posts a few weeks ago, and he stated that his home is a fortress to bust into. Perhaps we should all reinforce all of our homes so that we have enough time to verify who the hell is trying to kick in our door at 4:30 in the morning... At least then if we came out armed knowing theres actually police out there, there wouldnt be much of a problem getting shot for what we were doing.

reply to post by lastrebel


I have NRA and FOP decals on my door always current year, that is always a clear indicator of a firearm...I also have an LEO indicator as well next to my door aswell. We do good recon in our area. Our pre-raid checklist has 65 items...

Also anytime I have to do a warrant I grab 3-4 sting grenades and 3-4 flash bangs. Our department has the beanbag 3 shot shotgun attachment under our M4's as well...in my city he would have been bruised...not dead, I say this with an 95% certainty.

Secure